Off Peak Trains

[Daz28]

We often hear the phrase "Off Peak Train" in these forums, and it is usually followed by the correct advice that there is no such thing as an off peak train, and that it is the ticket and its restriction code which defines which trains may be used.

However it is is not surprising that the public are confused by these rules when I found the following poster at Euston this morning:

I'm particularly concerned by the statement that no off-peak ticket is valid whatever the destination. I'm sure there must be plenty of valid off-peak tickets that would be valid on this train?

 

[Swirlz]

London-Lancaster (5F) is valid on that train.
London-Shotton (VN) is also valid.
Norwich-Liverpool (1A) also valid.
London-Huddersfield (9D), same.

 

[pjnathanail]

London-Lancaster (5F) is valid on that train.
London-Shotton (VN) is also valid.
Norwich-Liverpool (1A) also valid.
London-Huddersfield (9D), same.

It is the first which I can see someone using most likely, and the TM, having seen the poster, will probably excess them at great expense!

 

[Swirlz]

It is the first which I can see someone using most likely, and the TM, having seen the poster, will probably excess them at great expense!

I don't think anyone is likely to ever be caught up in this, although theoretically someone could be misled.

For Lancaster, you'd get the 18:30
For Shotton, you'd get the 18:10
For Liverpool you'd get the 18:33
For Manchester/Huddersfield, you'd get the 18:40

I think the poster is supposed to target West Midlands passengers, rather than people going further North.
The average passenger won't go to Crewe via Birmingham.

 

[Goatboy]

What is the purpose of the bit about Milton Keynes?

It already explains in great length how absolutely zero offpeak tickets are valid. Why do they then explain that offpeak tickets with a railcard discount are not valid to Milton Keynes?

Quarter to 7 in the evening on an Intercity departure does strike me as stretching the definition of 'Peak' to the extreme...

 

[jkdd77]

I don't think anyone is likely to ever be caught up in this, although theoretically someone could be misled.

For Lancaster, you'd get the 18:30
For Shotton, you'd get the 18:10
For Liverpool you'd get the 18:33
For Manchester/Huddersfield, you'd get the 18:40

I think the poster is supposed to target West Midlands passengers, rather than people going further North.
The average passenger won't go to Crewe via Birmingham.

The return portion of almost all Off-Peak Returns do permit BoJ, so a passenger holding an unused SVR return portion from (say) London to Lancaster who wished to travel to Birmingham for the night might, quite legitimately, wish to take this train.

Whether he or she would get hassle at barriers and/or onboard when using such a ticket is a different matter.

The poster also mentions travel to Milton Keynes on this train as not being valid on railcard-discounted tickets, which is also somewhat misleading. Again, there are some tickets from <certain stations within London Zones 1-6, other than Euston> to Milton Keynes that do permit evening travel.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I'm particularly concerned by the statement that no off-peak ticket is valid whatever the destination. I'm sure there must be plenty of valid off-peak tickets that would be valid on this train?

I tested it on Maidenhead to Milton Keynes, but there must be any number of journeys starting before Euston for which off peak tickets are valid. A sign that is decided economical with the truth. If it said off peak tickets from Euston, it would be nearer the truth. As it goes via Birmingham and stops almost everywhere, it's an hour slower to Crewe than trains taking a non stop route leaving at around the same time.

(edit) Is it something to do with the former Network South East area? Trying Crewe instead of Milton Keynes restricted the choice of trains. (/edit)

 

[MikeWh]

The poster also mentions travel to Milton Keynes on this train as not being valid on railcard-discounted tickets, which is also somewhat misleading. Again, there are some tickets from <certain stations within London Zones 1-6, other than Euston> to Milton Keynes that do permit evening travel.

Isn't that focusing on the Virgin railcard easement which allows off-peak travel with railcard on all Virgin trains except between Euston and Milton Keynes?

 

[Daz28]

I'm guessing this poster is aimed at people travelling on tickets with restriction code 9I, where peak restrictions are lifted from 18:45, two minutes after this train departs.

The wording should be much more specific though. If they changed it to say off-peak tickets to the above destinations are not valid, it would still be wrong, but much less so.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The wording should be much more specific though. If they changed it to say off-peak tickets to the above destinations are not valid, it would still be wrong, but much less so.

Is the correct position, that if you have an off peak ticket, it might not be valid on certain trains? The train companies don't supply any reliable staff independent method at stations to validate a particular ticket train combination, hence the multiple pages on validity disputes.

 

[bb21]

Is the correct position, that if you have an off peak ticket, it might not be valid on certain trains? The train companies don't supply any reliable staff independent method at stations to validate a particular ticket train combination, hence the multiple pages on validity disputes.

Trains do not have "peak" or "off-peak" designations. Each ticket has its own restrictions and a train permitted on an Off-Peak ticket between certain stations may well be barred on Off-Peak tickets between other stations.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Trains do not have "peak" or "off-peak" designations. Each ticket has its own restrictions and a train permitted on an Off-Peak ticket between certain stations may well be barred on Off-Peak tickets between other stations.

TOCs try to give the impression to passengers and even their own staff that peak status is linked to trains. Hence the notice pictured at the top of the thread and announcements displaying and stating "off peak tickets are not valid on this train".

 

[bb21]

TOCs try to give the impression to passengers and even their own staff that peak status is linked to trains. Hence the notice pictured at the top of the thread and announcements displaying and stating "off peak tickets are not valid on this train".

...which are all giving out incorrect information.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

...which are all giving out incorrect information.

What can be done about it? The current position is even where passengers have correctly informed themselves that ticket validities can be more generous than TOCs will admit to, they find themselves in confrontations.

If they accept the incorrect information they are being "defrauded" out of travel rights they have paid for.

 

[Wirral]

Trains do not have "peak" or "off-peak" designations. Each ticket has its own restrictions and a train permitted on an Off-Peak ticket between certain stations may well be barred on Off-Peak tickets between other stations.

I travel on a Friday afternoon from London to Shotton that is off peak other than the 16.10 on Virgin. The train door shows peak time service, the Guard normally says this is a peak time train and off peak train tickets are not allowed other than with a valid rail card. Very few state that the welsh off peak tickets are valid.

In theory there may not be peak time trains but train operators do not reflect this. Simple economics they want everyone paying anytime fares and advetise the trains as peak time to encourage this. Even guards checking tickets are not aware sometimes that off peak tickets are allowed.

 

[RJ]

What is the purpose of the bit about Milton Keynes?

It already explains in great length how absolutely zero offpeak tickets are valid. Why do they then explain that offpeak tickets with a railcard discount are not valid to Milton Keynes?

London Midland price the flow between London and Milton Keynes. The railcard easement only applies to flows priced by Virgin Trains.

 

[benk1342]

London Midland price the flow between London and Milton Keynes. The railcard easement only applies to flows priced by Virgin Trains.

How would the average passenger know this?

 

[OwlMan]

How would the average passenger know this?

Because that is what the easement states

"Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS (Off Peak Single)/SVR (Off Peak Return), which are discounted using 16-25, Senior , Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards and Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card, can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only, (This easement is not permitted for travel between Milton Keynes Central and London Euston)"

 

[maniacmartin]

"all travel is on Virgin Trains services only" and "flows priced by Virgin Trains" are not always the same thing.

 

[IanD]

They wouldn't need to know who prices the flow because the text clearly states that the easement does not apply for travel solely between Milton Keynes and Central London.

 

[bnm]

This business about their being no such thing as Peak or Off Peak trains is wrong.

Take a look at restriction codes 5K, C7 and P7 for example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Trains do not have "peak" or "off-peak" designations.

This business about their being no such thing as Peak or Off Peak trains is wrong.

Take a look at restriction codes 5K, C7 and P7 for example. A whole list of 'Peak' trains there.

 

[All Line Rover]

"all travel is on Virgin Trains services only" and "flows priced by Virgin Trains" are not always the same thing.

Which is itself misleading as the easement is valid between Crewe and Birmingham, where travel could be with London Midland on the return portion of the journey!

 

[FenMan]

This business about their being no such thing as Peak or Off Peak trains is wrong.

Take a look at restriction codes 5K, C7 and P7 for example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This business about their being no such thing as Peak or Off Peak trains is wrong.

Take a look at restriction codes 5K, C7 and P7 for example. A whole list of 'Peak' trains there.

I can think of many journeys where travel on those services is valid using an Off Peak ticket. Try Wokingham to Cambridge via Paddington for example.

 

[bnm]

I can think of many journeys where travel on those services is valid using an Off Peak ticket. Try Wokingham to Cambridge via Paddington for example.

Well yes, but that journey (and many more) have totally different restriction codes.

Take a look at this thread (http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=84633) where you'll see just what can happen when using a ticket that doesn't conform to many FGW staff's idea of what is and isn't valid.

 

[RJ]

This business about their being no such thing as Peak or Off Peak trains is wrong.

Take a look at restriction codes 5K, C7 and P7 for example.

Well yes, but that journey (and many more) have totally different restriction codes.

In which case, what is your point? TOCs publishing posters with a blanket statement that off peak tickets are not valid on a particular service or at a particular time are misleading, precisely because the restriction codes vary between Off Peak tickets that are valid to pass through each station. Other posters are indeed wholly correct in asserting that there is no such thing as a peak train.

 

[bnm]

In which case, what is your point? TOCs publishing posters with a blanket statement that off peak tickets are not valid on a particular service or at a particular time are misleading, precisely because the restriction codes vary between Off Peak tickets that are valid to pass through each station. Other posters are indeed wholly correct in asserting that there is no such thing as a peak train.

My point? There ARE restriction codes which list trains, so surely that makes them 'Peak' trains for the purposes of the restriction. 'Barred' trains if you prefer, for semantics sake.

The blanket statements on posters and screens are misleading. Totally agree there.

 

[maniacmartin]

That doesn't make it a peak train in my opinion. It's a peak train for that ticket

 

[island]

London Midland price the flow between London and Milton Keynes. The railcard easement only applies to flows priced by Virgin Trains.

That's wrong I'm afraid.

"all travel is on Virgin Trains services only" and "flows priced by Virgin Trains" are not always the same thing.

The Virgin Railcard easement was changed a year or two ago from "flows priced by Virgin Trains" to "where all travel is on Virgin Trains". Both before and after, there was also additional verbiage that the easement was not valid for travel between London and Milton Keynes and v/v. I think there also used to be a rule stating it wasn't available on tickets routed VIRGIN TRNS ONLY but I can't find any reference to that now.

 

[Wirral]

Trains do not have "peak" or "off-peak" designations. Each ticket has its own restrictions and a train permitted on an Off-Peak ticket between certain stations may well be barred on Off-Peak tickets between other stations.

London Manchester 3-40 is showing peak time on the train door.

 

[maniacmartin]

Virgin's ticket wallets spread this myth of peak time traisn too, on the back cover.