Off peak times from Watford Junc

[mgood]

I am looking at a weekday return trip from Crewe to Watford J. Trying to price it directly doesn't give any Off Peak tickets to leave Watford between 1500hrs and 1830 hrs but if I do a split ticket via MK then it appears I can return from both WJ and MK anytime in this period using an Off Peak ticket.

Which is correct ? can I use an off peak ticket during these times ?

Thanks

 

[bb21]

The £32.90 and £17.70 fares between MKC and Watford J both allow travel in the afternoon peak.

Same with both the £60.60 and £35.50 fares between Crewe and MKC. The £60.60 fare is not allowed to have any afternoon restriction iirc.

 

[mgood]

Many thanks

 

[cheadle_cherry]

Would this split still apply from Euston to Manchester if I bought a peak from Euston to Milton Keynes and off peak from Milton Keynes to Manchester?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would this split still apply from Euston to Manchester if I bought a peak from Euston to Milton Keynes and off peak from Milton Keynes to Manchester?

As long as the train stops at MK (for both alighting and boarding) yes.

It's an inconsistency, but VTWC are banned in their franchise agreement from having weekday evening peak restrictions on SVRs northbound from MKC. However there aren't many trains that actually stop in the evening peak.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Would this split still apply from Euston to Manchester if I bought a peak from Euston to Milton Keynes and off peak from Milton Keynes to Manchester?

The MKC-MAN SVR (off-peak return) has restriction code 9I. This says that the ticket is "Not valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45", except as specified in the easements - where none apply.

The fact that it doesn't say (like some restrictions) "Not valid to depart before/after x" means that it is the timing of the train from origin to destination, not your journey on it, that matters.

So unfortunately this is not a feasible split during the 9I-defined peak hours.

There are plenty of other unusual fares waiting to be discovered, though. It all just takes imagination and patience...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The MKC-MAN SVR (off-peak return) has restriction code 9I. This says that the ticket is "Not valid on trains timed to depart London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45", except as specified in the easements - where none apply.

The fact that it doesn't say (like some restrictions) "Not valid to depart before/after x" means that it is the timing of the train from origin to destination, not your journey on it, that matters.

Actually it's not, as you will see if you read the restriction in full (and note different times given for Watford Jn and MKC) or if you spend 5 minutes with a journey planner and see what is implemented. It's badly worded like most restrictions.

What it is supposed to say (which is how it's implemented) is "not valid for boarding a train at the listed stations at...."

Were this not the case the MKC and WFJ times would be spurious, as no VTWC trains start their journey at either of those stations other than during the kind of exceptional engineering work that never occurs on a weekday or during the kind of disruption when ticket restrictions are lifted anyway. All northbound VTWC trains timetabled to call at WFJ and MKC originate from Euston without exception.

The ticket is valid from MKC in the evening, and you will not be challenged by any member of staff or ticket barrier because they all know what it is supposed to be. Much as they dislike it, VTWC are prohibited by their franchise agreement from introducing northbound Off Peak evening restrictions from MKC. They tried it once, and were burnt, and had to pack it in.

 

[cheadle_cherry]

Thank you very much for the clarification. Much appreciated.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Actually it's not, as you will see if you read the restriction in full (and note different times given for Watford Jn and MKC) or if you spend 5 minutes with a journey planner and see what is implemented. It's badly worded like most restrictions.

What it is supposed to say (which is how it's implemented) is "not valid for boarding a train at the listed stations at...."

Were this not the case the MKC and WFJ times would be spurious, as no VTWC trains start their journey at either of those stations other than during the kind of exceptional engineering work that never occurs on a weekday or during the kind of disruption when ticket restrictions are lifted anyway. All northbound VTWC trains timetabled to call at WFJ and MKC originate from Euston without exception.

The ticket is valid from MKC in the evening, and you will not be challenged by any member of staff or ticket barrier because they all know what it is supposed to be. Much as they dislike it, VTWC are prohibited by their franchise agreement from introducing northbound Off Peak evening restrictions from MKC. They tried it once, and were burnt, and had to pack it in.

So, the nationalrail.co.uk definition is incorrect? Why didn't they, when they last updated it (8th January this year according to NRE), correct it? I appreciate what you're saying and the journey planners agree, but it doesn't make any sense to me - the restrictions somehow don't count?

 

[bb21]

It is very badly worded as Bletchleyite pointed out. If you consider the way restrictions bar more or less the same trains at stations along the same route you will notice the inconsistency between Euston and MKC. As also pointed out, Virgin West Coast are not allowed to place evening restrictions on flows north from MKC on the Saver (hence the fare type abbreviation, Off-Peak for anyone not in the know) fare.

In any case, journey planners cannot implement time restrictions at a station called at in the past when considering barred itineraries. I don't think they were intended to either, as major barred stations would be listed separately in any case and points thereon are hardly going to cause capacity problems.

 

[SickyNicky]

bb21 is correct. Journey planners do not consider any stations that a train called at before you board. One reason for this is that you can't be expected to know where a train has come from. It may be obvious at Milton Keynes with a Virgin Train, but what about a CrossCountry train at Birmingham? Could have originated and called any number of randomish stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case, journey planners cannot implement time restrictions at a station called at in the past when considering barred itineraries. I don't think they were intended to either, as major barred stations would be listed separately in any case and points thereon are hardly going to cause capacity problems.

Well, they sort of can - they can ban a specific train throughout (or with exceptions), as they do on the North Wales route (the 1640 ex Euston I believe). But that's an administrative headache, as if you shift a train time by one minute it all of a sudden becomes valid unless you also fix the restriction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, the nationalrail.co.uk definition is incorrect? Why didn't they, when they last updated it (8th January this year according to NRE), correct it? I appreciate what you're saying and the journey planners agree, but it doesn't make any sense to me - the restrictions somehow don't count?

There are a lot of cases where either the text or the implementation is wrong. TOCs generally really are quite sloppy about this kind of thing (which is funny, because they really aren't sloppy about selling Anytime tickets when a passenger gets it wrong).

This one has been wrong for years. VTWC would be in breach of their franchise agreement to implement evening peak restrictions northbound from MKC on the SVS and SVR. That's all you need to know

(I expect with the next franchise such restrictions will no longer be banned and will be added, as while I quite like it it is rather an anomaly).

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There are a lot of cases where either the text or the implementation is wrong. TOCs generally really are quite sloppy about this kind of thing (which is funny, because they really aren't sloppy about selling Anytime tickets when a passenger gets it wrong).

This one has been wrong for years. VTWC would be in breach of their franchise agreement to implement evening peak restrictions northbound from MKC on the SVS and SVR. That's all you need to know

(I expect with the next franchise such restrictions will no longer be banned and will be added, as while I quite like it it is rather an anomaly).

Yes, the irony of their sloppiness is not lost on me. It's frankly ridiculous that TOCs can get away with this stuff - if a passenger made so much as a minor, unintentional error they are immediately threatened with fines/prosecutions/criminal records.

 

[bb21]

It is a meaningless comparison. In any case only a very small proportion of such passengers are so "threatened".

Don't believe whatever people, who often have little understanding of how things work, trot out.