Off peak tickets available Euston to Lancaster but not Blackpool.

[rmHawk765]

In the particular case of these tickets the restriction text specifically states "Break of journey is not permitted on the Outward journey, except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities."

This is incredibly confusing then - doesn't this mean you are allowed to change trains for Blackpool at Preston? Unless there's something else I've missed which prevents it, I'd be inclined to say that with this definition a block for changing at Preston cannot reasonably be enforced. Seems like it would be very easy for a passenger to purchase a Euston-Lancaster ticket and then Preston-Blackpool thinking they can change with no issues...

 

[Hadders]

This is incredibly confusing then - doesn't this mean you are allowed to change trains for Blackpool at Preston? Unless there's something else I've missed which prevents it, I'd be inclined to say that with this definition a block for changing at Preston cannot reasonably be enforced. Seems like it would be very easy for a passenger to purchase a Euston-Lancaster ticket and then Preston-Blackpool thinking they can change with no issues...

There are operations that can be done to make sure that someone with a Lancaster to London ticket has boarded at Lancaster and hasn't started short at Preston.

 

[rmHawk765]

There are operations that can be done to make sure that someone with a Lancaster to London ticket has boarded at Lancaster and hasn't started short at Preston.

But I am referring to the outward journey from Euston to 'Lancaster'. Surely if the ticket says changing at an intermediate station is allowed, then a passenger cannot reasonably be told they can't change at Preston? The ticket could at least say a break of journey is only allowed if you still end at Lancaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I am referring to the outward journey from Euston to 'Lancaster'. Surely if the ticket says changing at an intermediate station is allowed, then a passenger cannot reasonably be told they can't change at Preston? The ticket could at least say a break of journey is only allowed if you still end at Lancaster.

It doesn't say you can't change. It in effect says you can't exit at Preston (whether resuming or not). How would you propose to force people to resume?

 

[rmHawk765]

It doesn't say you can't change. It in effect says you can't exit at Preston (whether resuming or not). How would you propose to force people to resume?

So essentially there is no issue, and you can in fact change at Preston on the outward journey? What it says upthread is that for whatever reason this is not possible.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This actually feels like a "well we have always done it like that" situation. Surely when you operate one train a day on a route you want to make it affordable.

Avanti can make the one train a day affordable with Advance tickets.

The reason for it will be historical and will be related to the fact that there is only one or two trains a day to Blackpool. The purpose of the restriction is to keep the peak fares higher for Preston and points south. If Blackpool (or Bamber Bridge, Blackburn, etc) had the same fare restrictions as Lancaster instead of Preston then it would be a lot harder to enforce, as nearly everyone using the ticket would be changing trains at Preston.

So essentially there is no issue, and you can in fact change at Preston on the outward journey? What it says upthread is that for whatever reason this is not possible.

Nearly all the Avanti trains from London go on to call at Lancaster, which is about 15 minutes north of Preston.

Therefore, if you get off an Avanti train at Preston to "change trains" or "use the station facilities" before going on to Lancaster then any revenue protection staff will- fairly understandably- give you something of a grilling as to why you did that. It isn't that you can't do it.

But almost nobody genuinely travelling from London to Lancaster would get off a train at Preston unless that train doesn't call at Lancaster. Nearly every Avanti train calls at Lancaster. So anyone who does do it will need to provide an explanation as it is an unusual thing to do.

The enforcement tends to be more about the southbound journey, though. You can't enter the station at Preston with a Lancaster to London off-peak return. That's easy to enforce.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The enforcement tends to be more about the southbound journey, though. You can't enter the station at Preston with a Lancaster to London off-peak return. That's easy to enforce.

Does anyone know (i.e. has seen) exactly how these blocks are conducted? I've not seen one but I have heard of them happening.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Does anyone know (i.e. has seen) exactly how these blocks are conducted? I've not seen one but I have heard of them happening.

I've not seen any at the either of the East exits since I've never used them, I've only seen them at the ticket office/taxi rank exit checking anyone who wants to use either bridge, regardless of if they're leaving or changing train.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does anyone know (i.e. has seen) exactly how these blocks are conducted? I've not seen one but I have heard of them happening.

I've not seen one for about ten years when I used to fairly regularly travel from London to Penrith. I did genuinely sometimes have to change trains at Preston.

They used to have people on the footbridge and the subway checking people as they entered the platform for the London train, or sometimes at the taxi rank/main entrance stopping people before they climb the footbridge.

It was usually when the London trains were using platforms 5 or 6. I imagine it would be a heck of a lot harder to enforce it if the London train is using platform 4.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was usually when the London trains were using platforms 5 or 6. I imagine it would be a heck of a lot harder to enforce it if the London train is using platform 4.

It'd be fairly easy to block 3 and/or 4, there are only three accesses to them, the footbridge ramp (or one side of it at the bottom), the lift and the subway, and it wouldn't occur to most people to use the lift (hence, presumably, why Merseyrail don't bother too much about it being a way around the gateline at Lime St, and why New St had it as a way to bypass the gateline for years).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

and it wouldn't occur to most people to use the lift

Yes, I was quite surprised upon using the lift "because why not, it's already up here", and getting dropped into a tunnel I'd never realised existed (I'd never noticed the normal tunnel doesn't have lifts, given I'm normally running through it).

 

[Tetchytyke]

It'd be fairly easy to block 3 and/or 4, there are only three accesses to them

True, although you'd have to block off the whole of the taxi ramp. I was more thinking that it would be harder because all the station facilities are on those two platforms, whereas on 5 and 6 there's nothing.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...all the station facilities are on those two platforms, whereas on 5 and 6 there's nothing.

Small cafe-type outlet (= Pumpkin?) on island platforms 1/2 at Preston station, but otherwise that's essentially correct.

 

[Watershed]

But almost nobody genuinely travelling from London to Lancaster would get off a train at Preston unless that train doesn't call at Lancaster. Nearly every Avanti train calls at Lancaster. So anyone who does do it will need to provide an explanation as it is an unusual thing to do.

You're under no obligation to explain why your ticket is valid. If I were using a ticket in that way there's certainly no way I'd be discussing anything, I'd show the ticket and that's the end of the story.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're under no obligation to explain why your ticket is valid. If I were using a ticket in that way there's certainly no way I'd be discussing anything, I'd show the ticket and that's the end of the story.

I know some here actively enjoy litigation, but being obtuse rather than saying "I came from Lancaster on the Northern service", assuming that to be truthful, is a good way to end up with an MG11 to fend off (even though one should not be issued in this situation).

 

[Peter0124]

But almost nobody genuinely travelling from London to Lancaster would get off a train at Preston unless that train doesn't call at Lancaster. Nearly every Avanti train calls at Lancaster. So anyone who does do it will need to provide an explanation as it is an unusual thing to do.

I know some here actively enjoy litigation, but being obtuse rather than saying "I came from Lancaster on the Northern service", assuming that to be truthful, is a good way to end up with an MG11 to fend off (even though one should not be issued in this situation).

Or, in the spirit of rail enthusiasts, how about a hypothetical "I got off at Preston to take pictures of something I wouldn't have seen at Lancaster (eg 323s), had an opportunity to stretch my legs and now heading back north"

What would happen in that scenario? Especially given you wouldn't be leaving the station. Technically you aren't breaking the rules of the ticket?

 

[Watershed]

I know some here actively enjoy litigation, but being obtuse rather than saying "I came from Lancaster on the Northern service", assuming that to be truthful, is a good way to end up with an MG11 to fend off (even though one should not be issued in this situation).

I wouldn't say it's obtuse to show a valid ticket in response an inspection!

Or, in the spirit of rail enthusiasts, how about a hypothetical "I got off at Preston to take pictures of something I wouldn't have seen at Lancaster (eg 323s), had an opportunity to stretch my legs and now heading back north"

What would happen in that scenario? Especially given you wouldn't be leaving the station. Technically you aren't breaking the rules of the ticket?

Changing trains is explicitly enumerated as something which is not included of the scope of a bar on break of journey. Whether that's because the railway doesn't consider it a break of journey (which is the historical position), or considers it a break of journey but allows it anyway, it is permitted.

There is nothing that says the change of trains must be 'necessary' or similar. You are quite entitled to change at every station along the way if you want!

 

[tomoufc]

I wouldn't say it's obtuse to show a valid ticket in response an inspection!


Changing trains is explicitly enumerated as something which is not included of the scope of a bar on break of journey. Whether that's because the railway doesn't consider it a break of journey (which is the historical position), or considers it a break of journey but allows it anyway, it is permitted.

There is nothing that says the change of trains must be 'necessary' or similar. You are quite entitled to change at every station along the way if you want!

It certainly makes a lot of sense to allow passengers to disembark and catch a later service if they want.

 

[gray1404]

It would certainly be advisable for passengers to travel in accordance with an itinerary showing a change at Preston, which would include reservations.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You're under no obligation to explain why your ticket is valid.

Of course there's no obligation to answer any question.

Changing trains is explicitly enumerated as something which is not included of the scope of a bar on break of journey. Whether that's because the railway doesn't consider it a break of journey (which is the historical position), or considers it a break of journey but allows it anyway, it is permitted.

Of course changing trains is permitted.

However, if a person gets off a train from London going to Lancaster and they hold a London to Lancaster ticket which is not valid for a break of journey at Preston, revenue staff are naturally going to ask why that person has done that.

It's up to that person if they wish to explain why. But if they don't, they perhaps shouldn't be surprised when the revenue staff form a suspicion that the person was actually intending to break their journey at Preston.

It certainly makes a lot of sense to allow passengers to disembark and catch a later service if they want.

There's nothing preventing it.

But Preston station is an absolute toilet and you're not allowed to leave it as that would be a break of journey. So anyone doing it is going to raise eyebrows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was going to say they might like bashing 195s or 397s (a perfectly valid reason) - but if you're going to do that travelling via Manchester is very often cheaper due to the much higher capacity, plus you get more than 15 minutes on your preferred traction. Though of course Piccadilly gateline is probably looking out for it too.

 

[Peter0124]

I was going to say they might like bashing 195s or 397s (a perfectly valid reason) - but if you're going to do that travelling via Manchester is very often cheaper due to the much higher capacity, plus you get more than 15 minutes on your preferred traction. Though of course Piccadilly gateline is probably looking out for it too.

Though maybe they want to avoid 13/14. Of course these are very niche hypotheticals though but there is always a reason.

 

[A S Leib]

Though maybe they want to avoid 13/14. Of course these are very niche hypotheticals though but there is always a reason.

As we're already going down niche hypotheticals anyway, couldn't they go via Manchester Airport to avoid changing at Piccadilly?

 

[Watershed]

However, if a person gets off a train from London going to Lancaster and they hold a London to Lancaster ticket which is not valid for a break of journey at Preston, revenue staff are naturally going to ask why that person has done that.

It's up to that person if they wish to explain why. But if they don't, they perhaps shouldn't be surprised when the revenue staff form a suspicion that the person was actually intending to break their journey at Preston.

They're entitled to form that impression all they like, but breaking your journey where not permitted to do so doesn't render your ticket fundamentally invalid. It means you are liable to pay the excess to the cheapest valid fare permitting break of journey.

That penalty can only be applied in the event you actually do break your journey, i.e. exit the station premises. It is not sufficient for there to be mere suspicion that you are planning to do so. Indeed one could get off the train intending to break one's journey, then check the restriction code, realise the restriction, and continue the journey on a train an hour (or two or three etc.) later.