Off Peak tickets at Liverpool Street

[callumm]

Hi - first post here, so hello there!

I'm planning travelling to London and back from Audley End on an Off Peak Travelcard with a railcard (£12.85). The return portion of this isn't valid on the peak evening trains, for example the 17:28. I don't know what time train I want to return on, but if I wanted to travel on a peak train:

a) Would the barriers at Liverpool Street let me onto the platforms?
b) If not, would I be able to pay an excess fare at a ticket office in Liverpool Street
c) Would the excess fare be the difference between an Off Peak Travelcard and an Anytime Day Return (£16.70), an Anytime Railcard (£21.60), or some other fare?

Thank you very much - any help is much appreciated!
Callum

 

[RJ]

a.) Barriers in general are set up to stop people travelling with a ticket which is not valid for travel at the time.

b.) National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 12 allows customers to travel on a day or train on which their ticket is not valid, on payment of an Excess fare, providing there is no change to the originating and destination station shown on the ticket.

c.) If Off-Peak tickets are not valid on the train, the difference between the fare paid and the appropriate Return fare should be charged.

 

[clagmonster]

Assuming a penalty fare scheme is in operation between Audley End-Liverpool St, and that Liverpool St is a penalty fare station, then you should purchase you excess before boarding the train, Liverpool St booking office would be able to do it, the excess will be the differenced between the anytime day travelcard (£21.60) and off-peak day travelcard (£12.85), the excess fare therefore being £8.75.
If my assumptions about penalty fares are false, then you will be able to purchase the excess on board, but I doubt the ticket barriers would accept the ticket at Liverpool St anyway.
If your railcard is a Network Railcard, then on a weekday, which is the only time the off peak restrictions on this route apply anyway, the original off-peak day travelcard will cost £13 rather than £12.85 because of the railcard minimum fares.

 

[yorkie]

Penalty fares can NOT be issued for travelling on a peak train with an off peak ticket (or for being off route)

Also an Off Peak Travelcard is valid WITHIN the London Travelcard Zones AT ANY TIME after the morning peak. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with using this ticket between, say, Liverpool St and Tottenham Hale at say 5pm. Beyond the last station within the Zones you can be charged an excess up to the cost of an Anytime Day Travelcard. Of course, it will work the barriers at Liverpool Street because it is perfectly valid at that time for many journeys from Liverpool St.

It's a myth that TOCs can impose evening peak restrictions on the Travelcard itself - they can't. The restrictions only apply once you leave the last station within the Zones.

It's another myth that you can be given a penalty fare for the slightest thing such as being off route or being on an off peak ticket at peak time.

 

[clagmonster]

I appologise, became mixed up with clause 12 of the conditions of carriage. A penalty fare is only payable for travellignat a time when the ticket is invalid for discounted tickets, where this fact will be made clear in the notices and publications of the trains companies. As I can find nothing easily on either the National Rail or National Express websites, I can't see that this can be invoked.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with using the ticket within the zones in the evening peak, however Calum asked about using the ticket to travel to Audley End, which is out of the zones.

 

[yorkie]

I appologise, became mixed up with clause 12 of the conditions of carriage. A penalty fare is only payable for travellignat a time when the ticket is invalid for discounted tickets, where this fact will be made clear in the notices and publications of the trains companies. As I can find nothing easily on either the National Rail or National Express websites, I can't see that this can be invoked.

A penalty fare is not payable if travelling on a restricted ticket, and RPIs on here have said so. Condition 12 says you will be excessed.

It's ridiculously confusing but it does go on to say that condition 2 or 4 apply in the case of "some types of discounted tickets", and that means for example if on a TOC specific ticket that should not be excessed (according to some sources but there is a debate about this, see other threads) and a new ticket (but not a PF) issued, or a Railcard discounted ticket if you do not hold the Railcard, or invalid use of Megatrain, that sort of thing. There's no real way for us to know by reading that, so we have to go by what RPIs have said here.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with using the ticket within the zones in the evening peak, however Calum asked about using the ticket to travel to Audley End, which is out of the zones.

Yes, I agree, but it will still work the barriers (if they have been programmed correctly) as the ticket is valid at that point.

 

[callumm]

Thank you very much for all your help everybody. I actually ended up boarding my return train (which was a peak one) at Tottenham Hale, so there weren't any barriers to be a problem. No ticket inspectors in sight, but if one had showed up I'd have been happy to pay an excess fare...

If your railcard is a Network Railcard, then on a weekday, which is the only time the off peak restrictions on this route apply anyway, the original off-peak day travelcard will cost £13 rather than £12.85 because of the railcard minimum fares.

I think this restriction only applies on trains leaving before 10am - I was charged £12.85 with railcard.

Callum

 

[Mojo]

The use of Network Railcards is completely barred before 10am, and minimum fares apply Mon-Fri.

http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/time-restrictions

 

[clagmonster]

Yorkie, I think in the case of an operator specific ticket, clause 10 would be used as clause 12 is used for time restrictions. Also, the notices dealing with operator specific tickets don't always make it clear that a new ticket will have to be purchased if travelling on the wrong company's train.
Similarly in the case of railcard discounted tickets, I think clause 14 and the railcard terms and conditions would be used.
The only tickets I know of for which part b is appropriate are advance tickets. Megatrain tickets will be too if they are subject to the National Conditions of Carriage, but I have a feeling that for some reason they are subject to there own conditions instead. I don't know whether any rovers will be subject to clause b, else where there is no unrestricted variant, I don't see how the excess would be calculated.