'Off-Peak' ticket purchasing opportunities

[Pumbaa]

Edit: lopped post re-instated. Wonderful mobile technology...

Could anyone offer same advice on the following questions?

1) What rights does a passenger have to complete a journey on an Off-Peak ticket where the restriction states ".... Not valid on trains departing any station 1630-1900 inclusive unless completing a journey that has already been started..." if the half-hourly train advertised failed to materialise at 1610, becoming cancelled after the passenger purchased their ticket?

2) as above, but the passenger was aware of the cancellation prior to purchasing the ticket?

3) What constitutes the 'first available opportunity to buy a ticket' where a journey requires four changes, the first two legs being in Compulsory Ticket Areas but without commercial guards, the origin station being unstaffed and having an incorrectly programmed TVM that does not allow sale of an Off-Peak ticket that the passenger has gone to lengths prior to travel to ascertain its existence, and an itinerary comprising of hourly <10 min changes that may not be suitable to leg to ticket office and back? My limited understanding is wait till next peak train; same; unless commercial guard encountered, destination would be okay to pay at. Am grateful for any further thoughts from those who know more.

 

[island]

My opinions:

1. The passenger should seek out a member of staff to endorse his/her ticket as valid on the next train, or, at his option, have it refunded with no admin fee.

2. The passenger will need to pay an excess fare to travel on a "peak" service.

3. The passenger needs to purchase a ticket from the TVM that allows him/her to commence his/her journey and then purchase the desired ticket at the first available opportunity, with the amount paid for the first ticket being allowed as a reduction against the cost. Your post still seems to have bits missing so I can't indicate more specifically what that opportunity would be.

 

[Pumbaa]

Thanks for the thoughts. With 3, should the new ticket be acquired before the token ticket purchased ceases to be valid? Or, in another way, is it ok to buy a ticket to the next stop and attempt to sort it at an interchange?

 

[maniacmartin]

The requirement is simply to buy a ticket that enables you to make part of your journey, and exchange it at the earliest reasonable opportunity.

My opinion is that opportunity could be after the first ticket is no longer valid.

 

[34D]

3) What constitutes the 'first available opportunity to buy a ticket' where a journey requires four changes, the first two legs being in Compulsory Ticket Areas but without commercial guards, the origin station being unstaffed and having an incorrectly programmed TVM that does not allow sale of an Off-Peak ticket that the passenger has gone to lengths prior to travel to ascertain its existence, and an itinerary comprising of hourly <10 min changes that may not be suitable to leg to ticket office and back? My limited understanding is wait till next peak train; same; unless commercial guard encountered, destination would be okay to pay at. Am grateful for any further thoughts from those who know more.

Let's avoid the expression 'peak train' if we can. Tickets are peak, not trains.

So a ticket from abc to xyz has an off peak restriction of (example) not before 07:30, but the machine won't sell it until (example) 09:30?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The requirement is simply to buy a ticket that enables you to make part of your journey, and exchange it at the earliest reasonable opportunity.

My opinion is that that opportunity could be after the first ticket is no longer valid.

I agree with maniacmartin's logic.

 

[bb21]

IMO (1) should fall into the "delayed while travelling" category, in which case the passenger can simply take the next service even if this now falls into the barred period. Helps if the ticket can be endorsed, but not essential.

 

[yorkie]

Edit: lopped post re-instated. Wonderful mobile technology...

Could anyone offer same advice on the following questions?

1) What rights does a passenger have to complete a journey on an Off-Peak ticket where the restriction states ".... Not valid on trains departing any station 1630-1900 inclusive unless completing a journey that has already been started..." if the half-hourly train advertised failed to materialise at 1610, becoming cancelled after the passenger purchased their ticket?

I would be extremely surprised if the TOC insisted that the passenger delay their journey by such an extent. Not only is it bad customer service, but on most TOCs would result in compensation to 100% of the value of the ticket.

Technically, they probably could do this if they really wanted to (is there a rule to stop them?), but I would be pretty shocked if they did.

2) as above, but the passenger was aware of the cancellation prior to purchasing the ticket?

That's a grey area, as there is no contract yet in place, if this is the start of the passengers journey, they could be advised of the delay before being sold the ticket. However, I would expect arrangements to already be in place for passengers who already held tickets, in which case I would be surprised if anyone yet to buy a ticket would be treated differently.

When Grand Central had a lot of unreliability issues on the Sunderland route in 2008, I recall they were happy to issue passengers inter-available tickets at the GC price, on the Class 47 hauled shuttle between York & Sunderland to connect with an (NX)EC service between York & London. No-one was penalised for not purchasing in advance.

3) What constitutes the 'first available opportunity to buy a ticket' where a journey requires four changes, the first two legs being in Compulsory Ticket Areas but without commercial guards, the origin station being unstaffed and having an incorrectly programmed TVM that does not allow sale of an Off-Peak ticket that the passenger has gone to lengths prior to travel to ascertain its existence, and an itinerary comprising of hourly <10 min changes that may not be suitable to leg to ticket office and back? My limited understanding is wait till next peak train; same; unless commercial guard encountered, destination would be okay to pay at. Am grateful for any further thoughts from those who know more.

The first opportunity may not be until a train with a commercial guard, but failing that, then yes it could be the at the destination station.

 

[furlong]

For 3, check for any instructions displayed at the station.

I've seen some stations with signage advising you to use the help point in such circumstances.

Others may have a Penalty Fares poster that states:

If the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy the ticket you want from a self-service ticket machine, you must buy a permit to travel (where there is a machine available) paying as much of your fare as possible.

When there is no permit to travel machine, why do self-service ticket machines not themselves sell permits to travel?
Why do such posters not instruct you to buy an alternative ticket and change it later to close this loophole?

 

[transmanche]

When Grand Central had a lot of unreliability issues on the Sunderland route in 2008, I recall they were happy to issue passengers inter-available tickets at the GC price, on the Class 47 hauled shuttle between York & Sunderland to connect with an (NX)EC service between York & London. No-one was penalised for not purchasing in advance.

That was a sensible commercial decision made by an OAO in order to ensure customer loyalty (or at least minimise customer dissatisfaction) whilst resolving an ongoing problem. Not quite the same situation as a franchised TOC cancelling one train.

However, I'd hope a franchised TOC would take a similar long-term view...

 

[34D]

When there is no permit to travel machine, why do self-service ticket machines not themselves sell permits to travel?
Why do such posters not instruct you to buy an alternative ticket and change it later to close this loophole?

I guess the alternative ticket _is_ the PTT

 

[island]

I suppose it captures more revenue if they get the price of a ticket to the next stop rather than 5p for a PTT.