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Off-Peak Ticket in "Peak" Time, Travel Incident Report

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AverageTeaFan

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Hi there, I travelled to Leeds and took an off-peak day return from Adwick.

However, on the return leg, a friend and I decided against taking the 1722 Northern service to Adwick on our return leg because it was effectively full and standing. We decided to check whether we would be able to take the 1745 LNER Service as far as Wakefield Westgate, with the intention to await the next service to Adwick instead of spending the entire time at Leeds.

After checking with the information booth, who asked to see my ticket, they said that my ticket would be valid as far as WKF so we boarded the train accordingly. However, after arriving at WKF and leaving the barriers to obtain a Greggs (sigh), we were stopped at the barriers for apparently using an off-peak ticket during peak times.

After explaining to the gate staff that we were instructed to take this train by Leeds staff they said that they had to collect our details regardless as our ticket was invalid at that time. They collected our names, postcodes and took photographs of our tickets and issued us both with a Travel Incident Report which we were told was "not a fine".

The staff member informed me that what would likely happen is that a letter would arrive, asking us to pay the difference in fare. In my case, the ticket was £7.35 whereas an anytime ticket is £8.90 (this is using my 16-25 railcard). I was not offered the chance to pay the difference in person.

I think this is quite an extreme process for £1.55, is there anything I should know about this process? I would just like reassurance that what I was told is accurate and that I should just expect to pay £1.55 which I completely understand. Thanks.
 
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gray1404

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The Off Peak Day Return between the stations stated does not have any evening restrictions. You ticket was valid. There was no excess to pay nor any basis whatsoever for your details.being taken.

Even if there has been evening restrictions there would still have been on basis to demand your details. Rather payment of the difference in fare would have been payable but this does not apply here.
 

jfollows

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Leeds information booth was correct; Wakefield barrier staff were wrong.
As long as you have not actually paid anything extra, we can help you reply to the letter should you get one to the effect that you were right and you don’t owe anything.

Your ticket has restriction code B1:
Mondays-Fridays



Outward Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.
No evening restrictions, as @gray1404 already said.

See https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/b1/
 

hkstudent

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OP's off-peak ticket is only bears only B1 restriction, which only bars the use of the ticket before 0930, but not have an afternoon peak restriction.
Sadly, it's another case of (undertrained) Northern staff only applying metro area (West Yorkshire) PM restrictions to any tickets, and threatening passengers like that.

If Northern ever dare to charge the difference, I would suggest getting the local press / MP involved, for their wrong decisions.
 

yorkie

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Yet again, Northern mistreats another totally valid Off Peak ticket holder.

Please make a complaint and ask for it to be escalated to the very top of Northern.

Where did this happen exactly? WKK is Wakefield Kirkgate, but I wasn't aware barriers had been installed there?

Edit: If it was Wakefield Westgate (WKF) then it's actually LNER who manage the station, however I'd be much more surprised as it is usually Northern who misapply evening peak restrictions. That said, I am aware of someone at the ticket office at Westgate who invents peak restrictions.

Was it barrier staff who stopped you, or agency staff, or someone else? Can you be certain about who they worked for?
 
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Par

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There is zero justification for the issue of the TIR, even less so the taking of names and addresses.

I‘d be raising a complaint with Northern here.
 

skyhigh

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Do Northern staff the barriers at Westgate? I thought they were LNER operated?
 

AverageTeaFan

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Please be clear about where this happened. WKK is Wakefield Kirkgate, not Westgate. It's very important.
Apologies, it was Westgate, I have edited it to correct the CRS codes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thank you all for your replies, this incident set me on a nervous wreck because I've been using trains for years and never had any incident like this. If it were the gateline staff who were incorrect, would I still receive a letter for my TIR or have any action/record against me? I was really worried that I would get charged a penalty of £100+ for this mistake from trying to read online 'what I've done wrong' since from everything I know, I didn't.

I just don't want to this to be cleared so I don't even need to think about it.
 

yorkie

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OK in that case you need to complain to LNER

It is usually Northern who do this; there have been many instances reported on this forum (and no doubt thousands of cases that we are not aware of, as only the tip of the iceberg gets posted here).

Incidentally, LNER are already dealing with a complaint about a member of staff at Wakefield Westgate ticket office, who mis-sold a ticket on the basis of them making up peak restrictions. Unlucky for them, the customer is a member of staff at another TOC. Hopefully a full and proper investigation will be launched.

If you require any help drafting your letter to LNER, please do let us know.

Other than that, until LNER respond, there isn't anything else we can add to this thread, but please do get in touch once you receive a response from LNER.

LNER should be apologising, compensating you, and thoroughly investigating the conduct of the staff and providing appropriate re-training.
 

30907

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Apologies, it was Westgate, I have edited it to correct the CRS codes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thank you all for your replies, this incident set me on a nervous wreck because I've been using trains for years and never had any incident like this. If it were the gateline staff who were incorrect, would I still receive a letter for my TIR or have any action/record against me?
Sadly, it is possible that the system will grind into action without anyone reading the details. This would inconvenience you but then give additional grounds for complaint :)

There is no  valid way they could charge a penalty, and in this case not even an excess fare is due.
 

AverageTeaFan

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OK in that case you need to complain to LNER

It is usually Northern who do this; there have been many instances reported on this forum (and no doubt thousands of cases that we are not aware of, as only the tip of the iceberg gets posted here).

Incidentally, LNER are already dealing with a complaint about a member of staff at Wakefield Westgate ticket office, who mis-sold a ticket on the basis of them making up peak restrictions. Unlucky for them, the customer is a member of staff at another TOC. Hopefully a full and proper investigation will be launched.

If you require any help drafting your letter to LNER, please do let us know.

Other than that, until LNER respond, there isn't anything else we can add to this thread, but please do get in touch once you receive a response from LNER.

LNER should be apologising, compensating you, and thoroughly investigating the conduct of the staff and providing appropriate re-training.
Yeah, I did find it strange because the TIR say Northern at the top. I've attached a censored image of one, interestingly my partners were filled out incorrectly with no DOB and didn't ask her to sign. They also put TO: Wakefield Westgate which mine says Adwick since we were just breaking our journey at WKF.
 

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yorkie

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Yeah, I did find it strange because the TIR say Northern at the top. I've attached a censored image of one, interestingly my partners were filled out incorrectly with no DOB and didn't ask her to sign. They also put TO: Wakefield Westgate which mine says Adwick since we were just breaking our journey at WKF.
OK so maybe it was Northern? Were they barrier staff, or revenue officers?

Can LNER barrier staff issue TIRs? Or do LNER contract out the barrier work to Northern?

I see the "Issued on" location says "Station Other", so I suspect they were revenue staff and not actually gateline assistants.

DOB isn't required, so I don't think that is correct.

The journey info is incorrect, but this is absolutely in line with my expectations of Northern and their contractors.

So, it seems it is indeed Northern Rail you need to complain to. Feel free to post a draft letter here for proof reading.
 

AverageTeaFan

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OK so maybe it was Northern? Were they barrier staff, or revenue officers?

Can LNER barrier staff issue TIRs? Or do LNER contract out the barrier work to Northern?

I see the "Issued on" location says "Station Other", so I suspect they were revenue staff and not actually gateline assistants.

DOB isn't required, so I don't think that is correct.

The journey info is incorrect, but this is absolutely in line with my expectations of Northern and their contractors.

So, it seems it is indeed Northern Rail you need to complain to. Feel free to post a draft letter here for proof reading.
They had blocked off all of the other ticket barriers, so you were forced to scan it into what looked like a special ticket scanner. It bleeped red when we scanned it and there was a woman with a screen which I presume could see the output, they initially said it was fine until the woman shouted "off-peak". There were a group of staff in navy blue uniforms so I can only presume they were Northern Revenue Protection?
 

Haywain

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Can LNER barrier staff issue TIRs? Or do LNER contract out the barrier work to Northern?
The barriers at Wakefield Westgate are staffed by LNER. It is possible that there was a (joint?) revenue operation in place though which might explain Northern staff being present.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They had blocked off all of the other ticket barriers, so you were forced to scan it into what looked like a special ticket scanner. It bleeped red when we scanned it and there was a woman with a screen which I presume could see the output, they initially said it was fine until the woman shouted "off-peak". There were a group of staff in navy blue uniforms so I can only presume they were Northern Revenue Protection?
Yep, that's a Northern revenue operation.
 

yorkie

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They had blocked off all of the other ticket barriers, so you were forced to scan it into what looked like a special ticket scanner. It bleeped red when we scanned it and there was a woman with a screen which I presume could see the output, they initially said it was fine until the woman shouted "off-peak". There were a group of staff in navy blue uniforms so I can only presume they were Northern Revenue Protection?
Ah yes, the badly trained Northern revenue protection team. They are notorious for incorrect and inappropriate behaviour.

There isn't anyone who can do anything to bring them to account, sadly.

Anyway, I suggest we leave this thread here until you are ready for us to proofread a letter, or once you have a response.
 

Hadders

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Do make sure you keep a copy of the ticket you used, as it might be needed to show that your ticket was valid.

You are likely to receive a letter from Northern that uses quite threatening language. When it arrives pop back here and post a copy of it in this thread and we will be happy to assist in drafting a suitably worded letter to Northern.

This is really simple stuff for professional revenue staff to understand and ithey should not be getting something so simple so wrong.
 

AverageTeaFan

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Do make sure you keep a copy of the ticket you used, as it might be needed to show that your ticket was valid.

You are likely to receive a letter from Northern that uses quite threatening language. When it arrives pop back here and post a copy of it in this thread and we will be happy to assist in drafting a suitably worded letter to Northern.

This is really simple stuff for professional revenue staff to understand and ithey should not be getting something so simple so wrong.
Yes, I have an e-ticket so keeping a copy of it will be trivial.

I will await the letter's arrival and will send a copy here once it does, thank you.
 

yorkie

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OK if you are going to wait for Northern to contact you, I ask everyone that we leave the thread here for now.

Please post when you have an update.
 

wellhouse

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It's possible that the revenue staff overlooked the fact that the OP was breaking their journey on an Off Peak ticket to a destination outside West Yorkshire. There is a pm Off Peak restriction on tickets for journeys between stations within West Yorkshire
 

185

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Think the CSS badge number, for reference indicates this was issued by Carlisle Support Services, ie Northern's shockingly bad revenue contractor.
 

Haywain

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It's possible that the revenue staff overlooked the fact that the OP was breaking their journey on an Off Peak ticket to a destination outside West Yorkshire. There is a pm Off Peak restriction on tickets for journeys between stations within West Yorkshire
It is possible, if not certain, that that's what happened but the restrictions are not complicated and it's clear that two staff made the same 'mistake'. There should be no excuse for it.
 
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