Off Peak return

[Bob M]

Yesterday, Friday, I went from Christchurch (near Bournemouth) to Winsford (just north of Crewe) for the day. Because I wanted to return late, and the cross-country connections to Christchurch are terrible late at night, I went to the Virgin web site to buy a ticket via London. It offered me 0612 from CHR via London and Crewe for £28.55, and a similar price for the return, which I bought.

When the ticket arrived, it was an off-peak return for £57.10, marked route +LONDON. The confirming e-mail also said off-peak return and also listed the 0612 train requested, but declined to offer me seat reservations. Now, I have two questions:

1. Can I really travel from CHR on a train arriving at 8 am on this off-peak ticket (no one checked when I travelled!). If so, it is a lot cheaper than buying a ticket to Waterloo!

2. Could I have used this ticket marked Route: +LONDON on the (usually cheaper) cross country route via Birmingham?

 

[John @ home]

Can I really travel from CHR on a train arriving at 8 am on this off-peak ticket

Yes.

An Off-Peak return from Christchurch to any station beyond the old Network SouthEast area via London is valid by any train between Christchurch and London.

On Mondays to Fridays, Off-Peak returns are normally restricted on Virgin Trains to those leaving Euston 0915-1514 and after 1812. But you have a railcard, which has reduced the fare from £86.50 to £57.10, and Virgin Trains have a concession that railcard holders may use Off-Peak tickets on any Virgin service.

If so, it is a lot cheaper than buying a ticket to Waterloo!

Yes!

Could I have used this ticket marked Route: +LONDON on the (usually cheaper) cross country route via Birmingham?

The Off-Peak Return route Not London costs £49.90 with your Railcard and is valid by any train departing after 0459. So, yes, you could have used your more expensive ticket by a cheaper valid permitted route.

In future, if you want to travel out by one route and return by the other, buy the cheaper return ticket and an excess ticket to travel by the more expensive route for one leg of the journey. At 2008 prices, this would total £53.50 for this journey [49.90 + 0.5*(57.10-49.90)].

John

 

[yorkie]

Good advice from John, that is all correct.

But I don't think it is cheaper than a ticket to Waterloo. A SDR is £48.10 and a SOR is £50.05.

Off Peak tickets (still using code SVR) set by SWT are valid after 09:30, but this particular ticket is set by Virgin and therefore SWT have no say in the restriction and are obliged to accept the ticket on any train. If any guard challenges you, simply tell them to look up the rules for tickets from a station inside the Network area to a station outside the Network area.

 

[John @ home]

But I don't think it is cheaper than a ticket to Waterloo. A SDR is £48.10 and a SOR is £50.05.

I was assuming that these fares are not available to the OP due to restrictions in the validity of the railcard.

For example, a Senior Railcard discount is not available on tickets on morning peak period services, Monday to Friday (not including Public Holidays), when journeys are made wholly within the London and South East area (including all South West Trains services to and from London Waterloo). (from http://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/faqs/validity#1)

In these circumstances, a Senior Railcard holder has to pay £72.90 Anytime Day Return or £75.80 Anytime return to use the OP's 0612 from Christchurch to Waterloo on a weekday, but can travel on the same train with a Christchurch to Winsford ticket for £57.10.

Or even with a Christchurch to Rugby Off-Peak return for £43.15.

John

 

[yorkie]

What a bizarre rule! In that case, you are correct. It will, in many cases, be cheaper for holders of these railcards to purchase tickets to destinations beyond the Network area, e.g. if travelling to Colchester a ticket to Ipswich would be good, and so on.

Simplification? they're having a laugh!

 

[John @ home]

It will, in many cases, be cheaper for holders of these railcards to purchase tickets to destinations beyond the Network area, e.g. if travelling to Colchester a ticket to Ipswich would be good, and so on.

I don't think it works so well for Ipswich because the SVR fare is restricted to "any train scheduled to arrive at London Terminals at or after 1000." (NFM 01) Even so, from Christchurch to Ipswich SNR SOR is £82.50, a substantial saving on the Christchurch to Colchester SDR of £96.80.

The anomaly arises due to the interworking of the Senior Railcard restrictions in the south-east with the Virgin concession for all railcards. So it may be difficult to find a better fare than Rugby, the first Virgin station beyond "London and the South East" - see http://www.railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/File/Network Railcard area map(2004).pdf

The whole sytem descends into farce when a SNR Railcard return from Christchurch to Windermere is £2.85 cheaper than a return from Christchurch to London for the same person on the same train.

John

 

[yorkie]

I don't think it works so well for Ipswich because the SVR fare is restricted to "any train scheduled to arrive at London Terminals at or after 1000." (NFM 01) Even so, from Christchurch to Ipswich SNR SOR is £82.50, a substantial saving on the Christchurch to Colchester SDR of £96.80.

Yes, from Ipswich may not be so great. But going to Ipswich in the morning would be fine.

The anomaly arises due to the interworking of the Senior Railcard restrictions in the south-east with the Virgin concession for all railcards. So it may be difficult to find a better fare than Rugby, the first Virgin station beyond "London and the South East" - see http://www.railcard.co.uk/clientfiles/File/Network%20Railcard%20area%20map(2004).pdf

But if all you want to do is travel to London in the morning peak, it doesn't matter where the ticket is bought to (as long as it is beyond the Network area) as they are all unrestricted from origin to London.

The whole sytem descends into farce when a SNR Railcard return from Christchurch to Windermere is £2.85 cheaper than a return from Christchurch to London for the same person on the same train.

John

Yep

 

[Bob M]

Thanks for the answers. Sorry I forgot to mention I have an Oldie's railcard, but you were all clever enough to work it out anyway!

 

[Pumbaa]

and Virgin Trains have a concession that railcard holders may use Off-Peak tickets on any Virgin service.

Didn't know this. Let me guess - it doesn't apply to YP?

 

[yorkie]

Didn't know this. Let me guess - it doesn't apply to YP?

it does.

 

[John @ home]

Didn't know this. Let me guess - it doesn't apply to YP?

It does apply.

National Fares Manual 99 (valid May-Sep 2008 ) stated:
Savers purchased with a 16-25 Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, without time restriction.

This still applies (for Off-Peak tickets, following the "simplification" of fares) but I have been unable to find a current reference in the public domain. This shows how daft it is that the non-fares part of the former National Fares Manual is no longer on the web.

But to check it, try a peak journey by Virgin Trains with one of the journey planners.

John

 

[glynn80]

I think you may want to rethink how you word the advice. All Off Peak Returns are not valid on Virgin Trains at any time. The wording the FRPP has is as follows:

Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a 16-25 or Young Persons Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction.

So thus Off Peak Singles and Returns are only valid on Virgin Trains where Virgin set the fare. Now while I agree they are likely to price most flows on the West Coast there are some that will be priced by other operators e.g. London Terminals to Milton Keynes Central is priced by London Midland.

 

[John @ home]

I think you may want to rethink how you word the advice. All Off Peak Returns are not valid on Virgin Trains at any time. The wording the FRPP has is as follows:

Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a 16-25 or Young Persons Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction.

Good point, glynn80. I was not aware how previous "Savers" had been translated in this instance, because I don't have access to internal industry information. Can you quote me the words relating to a Senior Railcard, please? In NFM 99 they were Savers purchased with a Senior Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, without time restriction.

London Terminals to Milton Keynes Central is priced by London Midland.

I agree that the information on the Avantix Traveller CD indicates that London Midland price this flow. So one would expect railcard discounted SVR tickets not to be valid on morning peak Virgin trains.

But both the VT and LM web sites are willing to sell a SVR with a Y-P railcard discount for the 0714 Virgin service from Milton Keynes to Euston, but not for the LM service at 0714. However, neither will sell a SVR with a SNR railcard for either 0714.

Between Milton Keynes and Rubgy, another flow priced by LM, both sites will sell a SVR with either a Y-P or a SNR railcard discount for the 0622 Virgin service from Milton Keynes to Rugby, but not for the LM service at 0637.

From this I deduce:
1. The restriction to journeys on Virgin Trains where Virgin Trains price the flow is not always enforced. Does anyone know of an example where it is ever enforced?

2. Where the Virgin Trains concession contradicts a restrictive rule, for example a Senior Railcard discount is not available on tickets on morning peak period ... journeys ... wholly within the London and South East area, the restrictive rule is applied.

All this makes it more important that the information which used to be available in the printed National Fares Manuals must be placed in the public domain. Without it, how can a member of the public be aware that a former Saver ticket which is now a SVR attracts the Virgin concession, but a former Saver ticket which is now a SSR does not?

John

 

[glynn80]

The wording for the Senior Railcard with regard to time restrictions on VT is as follows:


Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a Senior Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction.

 

[yorkie]

From this I deduce:
1. The restriction to journeys on Virgin Trains where Virgin Trains price the flow is not always enforced. Does anyone know of an example where it is ever enforced?

It's not advertised anywhere except in a hidden top secret document. It is not enforced, and not enforcable. VT always say Savers are not valid "unless you have a railcard" or words to that effect. They never look up who sets the fare - imagine that! it would be a nightmare to enforce! Besides, that rule would be illegal in consumer law because the consumer has no practical way to check who sets the fare. The fact anyone even thought of it proves that there are some pretty thick people in charge of our railways, and I'd like to tell the person who made this secret 'rule' up how stupid he or she is.

 

[Oracle]

Are DISABLED R/C holders restricted please?

 

[Pumbaa]

It does apply.

National Fares Manual 99 (valid May-Sep 2008 ) stated:
Savers purchased with a 16-25 Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, without time restriction.

This still applies (for Off-Peak tickets, following the "simplification" of fares) but I have been unable to find a current reference in the public domain. This shows how daft it is that the non-fares part of the former National Fares Manual is no longer on the web.

But to check it, try a peak journey by Virgin Trains with one of the journey planners.

John

Thanks very much guys! Avoids now having to buy Anytimes!

Out of interest, are Virgin the only TOC that have this rule? And do they accept Y-P on FC yet?

 

[John @ home]

Are DISABLED R/C holders restricted please?

National Fares Maual 99 (May-Sep 2008 ) stated:
Savers purchased with a Disabled Persons Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, without time restriction.

If the same pattern is followed as for other railcards, then it is likely that the current words are:
Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a Disabled Person's Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

are Virgin the only TOC that have this rule?

Yes. Virgin are the only TOC allowing railcard holders to travel at peak times with discounted Off-Peak tickets.

do they accept Y-P on FC yet?

For First Class Advance tickets only.

16-25 Railcard holders get 1/3 off First Class Advance fares for travel on CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains, First Great Western, National Express East Coast and Virgin Trains services.
from http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance.html

John

 

[glynn80]

I think the conclusion in this case is even though the FRPP does state that ONLY SVR fares Virgin price, are valid without restriction in reality everybody adheres to the old rule of ALL SVR fares are valid without restriction. TheTrainline shows them as valid, guards announce the fact that unless you have a railcard SVR's are not valid at peak time etc.

 

[yorkie]

If they want to enforce this "where VT set the flow" nonsense they'll have to print on the ticket who sets the flow, or provide a list that is PUBLICLY ACCESSIBLE of who sets the flow and they'll have to advertise it as that, otherwise it's false advertising and falls foul of consumer laws. If they do attempt this, I am sure they'd get a lot of grief about making the rules extremely complicated. And guards will have to check who sets each fare when checking tickets! How many guards will bother with that?

 

[flymo]

I've read this thread with interest and simply cannot believe how complicated buying something as simple a rail ticket has become. I fully agree with comments above that the whole National Fares Manual be made public, print or preferably online, otherwise how is anyone ever going to be able to find the best value fare for their journey. (Apart from coming for advice here of course). Absolutely unbelievable.

As for this whole setting the flow thing, how on earth is anyone going to know that? If Virgin Trains (or their website) sell a ticket with a railcard for a particular journey and then the guard / conductor says it isn't valid because "We don't set the flow" then surely that is illegal because they have knowingly sold an invalid ticket. Or would they only sell a ticket where it is valid and not give the option to buy if not valid.

My head hurts just thinking about all this.....

 

[yorkie]

flymo - I agree entirely.

If in doubt, purchase online, request reservations, and sit in reserved seats, and they cannot legally make you pay any more as they have entered into a contract. No court in the land would uphold a TOC if you sit in your reserved seat.

Of course we are talking about walk on fares so you don't have to book in advance, I'm just saying that for peace of mind you can get proof of the contract and there's no way they can excess you then.

 

[Bob M]

but, the more I think about it, the less I understand!

Does the Virgin railcard concession apply:

1. On Virgin trains for routes priced by Virgin,or
2. On any train for routes priced by Virgin, or
3. On Virgin trains?

Unless it is (2), it would seem I should not have used this railcard ticket on the early train to Waterloo.

 

[dan_atki]

Should be 1 (if we go by the book completely) but is actually 3 (due to the complexity of pricing of flows and difficulties in establishing such information as stated above).

To answer your second point, Off Peak tickets (that are valid via London) from stations in the former Network SouthEast area* to stations outside the former NSE area, are NOT restricted from the station in the NSE area to London.

* A link is given in post #6 above with a map of the NSE area.

Relevant quotes below are from Avantix Traveller - I'm sure similar is written on FRPP:

Holders of 16-25, Senior, Disabled, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards, New Deal Photocards and Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards travelling with Off-Peak tickets may use ANY Virgin train service, as long as the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains. If the journey is not priced by Virgin Trains then the stated Off-Peak restrictions apply.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting within the Network Area to destinations outside the Network Area with travel via London are valid by any train to London, to connect with trains from London.

 

[paul1609]

Its worth pointing out that Off Peak tickets are valid for the majority of Northbound departures from London Marylebone (I think that one WSMR departure is excluded). If your ticket is valid via Marylebone just tell the SWT guard you are travelling via Chiltern to Birmingham.

 

[glynn80]

but, the more I think about it, the less I understand!

Does the Virgin railcard concession apply:

1. On Virgin trains for routes priced by Virgin,or
2. On any train for routes priced by Virgin, or
3. On Virgin trains?

Unless it is (2), it would seem I should not have used this railcard ticket on the early train to Waterloo.

What was being discussed here was all "theory", what is technically invalid etc. But seeing as your confused I will explain your situation.

The ticket you purchased from Christchurch to Winsford had restriction code 9I, this restricts travel mainly from London Terminals stations (and some close to London Terminals like Reading and Watford Junction). It has no other restrictions associated with it (except if travelling from Westbury, Castle Cary, Pewsey or Swindon, which your not so we will ignore that).

The restriction relating to the terminal in London you are travelling out of ie. Euston is as follows:

Outward Travel
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to DEPART:

London Euston
Between 0905 & 1514 (inc.) and at or after 1832


Return Travel
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to ARRIVE:

London Euston
At or after 1055



If you had no railcard you would be restricted to those times travelling out of Euston. But you would have no restrictions at all from Christchurch.

Seeing as you do have a railcard the following applies:

Off-Peak ticket types codes SVS and SVR purchased with a 16-25 or Young Persons Railcard are valid on any Virgin Train, where Virgin Trains price the flow, without time restriction.

It applies to Senior Railcard also if you were wondering.

So you have no restriction from Christchurch (as restriction 9I doesn't state any) and the restriction you have out of Euston has been lifted due to the rule above.

Therefore the answer to your question is:
1. On Virgin trains for routes priced by Virgin

And your ticket was valid into Waterloo at any time as restriction code 9I has no time restrictions associated with that part of the journey.

Its worth pointing out that Off Peak tickets are valid for the majority of Northbound departures from London Marylebone (I think that one WSMR departure is excluded). If your ticket is valid via Marylebone just tell the SWT guard you are travelling via Chiltern to Birmingham.

The restriction 9I states "By Any train" out of London Marylebone in the Northbound direction so you could catch any service at any time.