Off-peak return ticket validity

[Bungle]

Evening all. Question re ability to use the return portion of an off-peak ticket where the journey starts just before 09:30.

I hold an off-peak return Boston-Sutton Coldfield (route via Nottingham) ticket, £68.80. I now need to make the return trip to Boston.

The ticket is not valid on any train before 09:30.

National Rail website gives me itineraries that all start at xx:29. Logically, the first available connection is 10:29, 2 changes, arriving in Boston at 14:18.

The question is, is the validity tied to a published itinerary based on the origin of the ticket?

For example, could I start short and board what was the 09:29 from Sutton in Wylde Green at 09:32 (therefore not using the ticket before 09:30) or is that likely to cause trouble? I couldn’t prove to an RPI or barrier staff that I started short and I’m guessing I will run into problems.

Similarly, if I ran and made earlier (unofficial) connections in (say) Derby, which put me on a train I otherwise wouldn’t have been able or allowed to get, if I got checked further down the journey en-route to Boston, would that cause trouble? Or is the fact I’m using it after 09:30 enough?

I’d like to arrive in Boston an hour earlier preferably but I don’t want to break rules or get into arguments with staff, so if the earliest arrival permitted is 14:18 then so be it.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's an XC 2V one.

I don't know the answer for certain but one thing interesting and relevant about 2V is this:

Overnight Break of Journey is permitted under this restriction code.

Outward (on day 2): Outward restrictions as above apply. Return: Return restrictions as above apply Monday-Friday.

What that implies is that if you break your journey overnight you can restart the following day as long as you do so after 0930. Logic would say a same day break or start short should also be allowed on that basis.

Of course proving that you did start short is awkward. As I mentioned on another thread asking something similar, you could buy the ticket at the station you board, or buy it for collection and collect it there, as a reasonable piece of evidence. However staff still might be awkward about it particularly if the station is gated (I don't know if it is or not).

As Cross City services all call at Wylde Green, though, the easiest way to avoid any friction may simply be to split there. It'll cost you 6 quid more, but compared to the full price of the ticket that's fairly minimal. I think that's what I would probably do.

 

[tumbledown]

We really must start standing up for ourselves. A ticket valid at the time and place of inspection is a valid ticket.

 

[speedy1]

@Bletchleyite they already have a ticket

You can legitimately board at Wylde Green to catch the 0932. You're entitled to start there with your ticket and that will be the beginning of your journey, at a permissible time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We really must start standing up for ourselves. A ticket valid at the time and place of inspection is a valid ticket.

There are battles worth fighting, and £6 on an £80-odd ticket is just not worth the time and stress for me.

If it is for you, fine, but don't expect to get inspected with this ticket without at least some hassle, even if it is technically valid for the intended journey. Certainly don't do it without some sort of evidence of where you boarded.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 23:35 ==

@Bletchleyite they already have a ticket

You can legitimately board at Wylde Green at 0932. You're entitled to start short with your ticket and that will be the beginning of your journey, at a permissible time.

Yes, but what do you think an RPI is going to think they did?

I would absolutely not do this without uncontrovertible evidence of having boarded at Wylde Green, such as having actually purchased it there (or collected it there) immediately before travel. The chance of hassle is very high.

Can't remember where else I used this quote recently, but Daniel Barnett on LBC often says "having a legal right and enforcing it are two different things" and I think this probably applies here.

 

[speedy1]

What evidence will an RPI have? They're entitled to suspicions that's all. OP will be on CCTV at Wylde Green and not at Sutton.

If OP is risk averse they could take a video of them boarding and clearly show their at face at a cctv camera. Or ask the ticket office to print the cheapest ticket they can find?

 

[Ediswan]

I would absolutely not do this without uncontrovertible evidence of having boarded at Wylde Green, such as having actually purchased it there (or collected it there) immediately before travel. The chance of hassle is very high.

A video from the platform of the train arriving at Wylde Green, showing the unit number, might help.

 

[greatkingrat]

Let's be realistic, anybody checking the ticket is unlikely to have memorised all the departure times on the Cross City Line, so wouldn't know what time trains were booked to leave Sutton Coldfield anyway.

 

[Haywain]

anybody checking the ticket is unlikely to have memorised all the departure times on the Cross City Line, so wouldn't know what time trains were booked to leave Sutton Coldfield anyway.

If they were to come round shortly after Wylde Green they are likely to have a very good idea of the Sutton Coldfield departure time.

 

[rhizomergence]

Some time ago I asked whether a super-off peak day travelcard, any permitted, from Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 could be used on the return leg during the afternoon peak (restriction code TN, "Not valid on trains timed to depart the following London stations after 16:29 or before 19:02: London Kings Cross, ...") by starting at Finsbury Park.

I believe was informed that it would be not officially allowed since the restriction code data implies we "look back in time" to see where the train originated and apply the rules from there (but I could get an accredited retailer to generate an itinerary starting from Finsbury Park when buying the ticket and then travel would be allowed on that specific train as the electronic journey planning data works differently?).

Is there a difference here, because it's at the end of the restricted period, that there is no longer the "look back in time" check to decide if a train is valid? Or it's a difference due to the wording of the restriction? E.g. "not valid for trains scheduled to depart" in this case, "not valid on trains timed to depart" in mine, or because my case had a specific list of stations?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 13:23 ==

The aforementioned post is here:

Cambridge Super Off Peak Day Travelcard - Evening Restrictions Clarification

Am wondering whether it is possible to avoid the evening peak restrictions by leaving from Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale. The restrictions on the ticket are as follows (TN): Not valid on trains timed to depart any London Terminal after 04:29 and before 10:55. Not valid on trains timed to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

Some time ago I asked whether a super-off peak day travelcard, any permitted, from Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 could be used on the return leg during the afternoon peak (restriction code TN, "Not valid on trains timed to depart the following London stations after 16:29 or before 19:02: London Kings Cross, ...") by starting at Finsbury Park.

I believe was informed that it would be not officially allowed since the restriction code data implies we "look back in time" to see where the train originated and apply the rules from there (but I could get an accredited retailer to generate an itinerary starting from Finsbury Park when buying the ticket and then travel would be allowed on that specific train as the electronic journey planning data works differently?).

Is there a difference here, because it's at the end of the restricted period, that there is no longer the "look back in time" check to decide if a train is valid? Or it's a difference due to the wording of the restriction? E.g. "not valid for trains scheduled to depart" in this case, "not valid on trains timed to depart" in mine, or because my case had a specific list of stations?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 13:23 ==

The aforementioned post is here:

Cambridge Super Off Peak Day Travelcard - Evening Restrictions Clarification

Am wondering whether it is possible to avoid the evening peak restrictions by leaving from Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale. The restrictions on the ticket are as follows (TN): Not valid on trains timed to depart any London Terminal after 04:29 and before 10:55. Not valid on trains timed to...

www.railforums.co.uk

The ticket would fall foul of the restriction text because the train being boarded would have fulfilled on part of the following:

Not valid on trains timed to depart the following London stations after 16:29 or before 19:02:

• London Kings Cross
• Moorgate
• London St Pancras Intl

A journey planner can only take account of departure times at specified station for the journey enquiry, and therefore may erroneously validate travel on such a train. If it does so, you are contractually entitled to travel on such a train, but it would be advisable to carry the itinerary to confirm that you have that authority.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Some time ago I asked whether a super-off peak day travelcard, any permitted, from Cambridge to London Zones 1-6 could be used on the return leg during the afternoon peak (restriction code TN, "Not valid on trains timed to depart the following London stations after 16:29 or before 19:02: London Kings Cross, ...") by starting at Finsbury Park.

I believe was informed that it would be not officially allowed since the restriction code data implies we "look back in time" to see where the train originated and apply the rules from there (but I could get an accredited retailer to generate an itinerary starting from Finsbury Park when buying the ticket and then travel would be allowed on that specific train as the electronic journey planning data works differently?).

Is there a difference here, because it's at the end of the restricted period, that there is no longer the "look back in time" check to decide if a train is valid? Or it's a difference due to the wording of the restriction? E.g. "not valid for trains scheduled to depart" in this case, "not valid on trains timed to depart" in mine, or because my case had a specific list of stations?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 13:23 ==

The aforementioned post is here:

Cambridge Super Off Peak Day Travelcard - Evening Restrictions Clarification

Am wondering whether it is possible to avoid the evening peak restrictions by leaving from Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale. The restrictions on the ticket are as follows (TN): Not valid on trains timed to depart any London Terminal after 04:29 and before 10:55. Not valid on trains timed to...

www.railforums.co.uk

The ticket would fall foul of the restriction text because the train being boarded would have fulfilled on part of the following:

A journey planner can only take account of departure times at specified station for the journey enquiry, and therefore may erroneously validate travel on such a train. If it does so, you are contractually entitled to travel on such a train, but it would be advisable to carry the itinerary to confirm that you have that authority.

It's perhaps worth spelling out the difference. The restriction code that the OP in this thread wants to know about appears to be 2V (per @Bletchleyite 's post #2): at https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/2v/ the basic restriction is given as

Not valid for trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

Compare that to @rhizomergence 's restriction which per @Haywain says

Not valid on trains timed to depart the following London stations after 16:29 or before 19:02:
- London Kings Cross
- Moorgate
- London St Pancras Intl

The fundamental difference between these restrictions is that V2, as applying to the OP, only talks about 'scheduled to depart': @rhizomergence 's restriction talks about 'timed to depart the following London stations'. So for the OP, what matters is the scheduled time the train leaves the station that they are boarding at, while for @rhizomergence what matters is the time the train leaves its London station - which if they're joining the train part way through the train's journey will be earlier than when they get on board.

 

[rhizomergence]

Thanks both. For some reason I didn't think that 'scheduled to depart' in OP's code does not automatically refer to the origin station written on the ticket.

I guess OP's type of restriction allows for buying a ticket with origin from further afield (with more lax restrictions) with the intent to start short. Found another example where non-negligible savings could be had quite quickly (which I'll refrain from sharing).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks both. For some reason I didn't think that 'scheduled to depart' in OP's code does not automatically refer to the origin station written on the ticket.

Not only that, but the line on break of journey makes it further strongly implied that it doesn't.

 

[30907]

A single from Sutton C to Wylde G would be clear enough evidence - and would allow the OP to use the former too!
It is strictly unnecessary if W G is convenient anyway.