off peak return query

[mtagt56]

Hi

I have purchased an off peak return ticket.

From chester-le-street to Telford and it appears to go via Birmingham new street. The ticket departs today at 17:26.

My ticket says valid on any permitted route.

Does anybody know if it would be possible for me to take an earlier train using the off peak return, and also if I choose could I go from durham station which is the enxt stop from chester-le-street station ?

I know there are trains going from durham, or there is a train at 15:38 from chester-le-street but this one instead goes to manchester, then on to wolverhampton and back to telford.

Could I also use this one or not?

Your help would be apprecaited with this one.

 

[island]

Your ticket is subject to restriction code 8A, which means valid at any time but no break of journey on the outbound leg. That means you may not start your outward journey from Durham. If you did and you were caught, you would be liable to pay an excess fare of £26.20.

Subject to that, you can use any train for your outbound and also your return journey.

 

[mtagt56]

Your ticket is subject to restriction code 8A, which means valid at any time but no break of journey on the outbound leg. That means you may not start your outward journey from Durham. If you did and you were caught, you would be liable to pay an excess fare of £26.20.

Subject to that, you can use any train for your outbound and also your return journey.

Thank you for the prompt reply, where did you find out about the 8A Code as I cannot see that? Would I be able to go fromc hester-le-street to manchester, then to wolverhampton ? or have I got to go to birmingham
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
not that i wish to question, but i have called national rail and they have said i am permitted without charge to get on any train as long as my final destination is telford. A i have purchased an off peak return £90.90

 

[Paul Kelly]

You can use it on any permitted route from Chester-le-Street to Telford, which almost certainly includes going via Manchester. No problem there. The only restriction is that there is no break of journey allowed on the outward leg, which means your journey has to start at Chester-le-Street. There is no restriction on the return leg, so when you are coming back you are free to get any train to Durham and finish your journey early there.

 

[ainsworth74]

not that i wish to question, but i have called national rail and they have said i am permitted without charge to get on any train as long as my final destination is telford. A i have purchased an off peak return £90.90

With respect to National Rail they are wrong the ticket does not allow break of journey on the outward leg (which starting short at Durham would be considered). The following comes from the National Fares Manual:

Restriction : 8A
Available as listed below on
any day.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on any train.

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.

RETURN TRAVEL
Valid on any train.

You can also find a list of restriction codes here.

 

[island]

Mind you, if you have called National Rail and they have told you something (and you have noted the time and date of call and the name of the person with whom you spoke) you have a very good excuse in the unlikely event you are called upon to cough up £26.20 (and if you are, ask for an unpaid fare notice rather than paying and trying to claim it back, because it's hard to reclaim it).

 

[cuccir]

You can take any train from Chester-le-Street, but must start there. You can change trains at Durham (or indeed Darlington or York, where you'd have more access to station facilities whilst you waited) however, if you want to avoid Manchester. This would, though, take longer than the via Manchester route if you took the 15:38 from Chester.

 

[mtagt56]

thank you all for your replies, its all very confusing. Im still slightly confused because i dont see anywhere on my ticket about 8a exclusion just says any permitted etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
so i am clear.

if i choose i can use my off peak ticket thats booked for 17:26 on the one at 15:39 from chester-le-street that goes to manchester then to wolves and on to tleford, without incuring any charge?

 

[323235]

The restriction code isn't printed on tickets,they are not very well publicised and arn't very easy to find. You have to know where to look.

Any Permitted Route means the routes allowed within the Routing Guide used by the railways. To keep it simple permitted routes are 1) Shortest routes on which regular scheduled trains operate 2) Routes shown on the maps in the routing guide and routes on which a through train operates. There is also an additional concession of Shortest Route + 3 miles.

Yes your ticket is valid via Manchester and Wolverhampton as well as Manchester and Shrewsbury.With an An Off Peak ticket you do not have to travel on the reserved services and can travel at another time as long as you stick to the time restrictions of the ticket and the valid from/to date.

 

[island]

Yes. You can travel at any time, on any train etc. The only things you must do are start your outbound journey at CLS and not break your outbound journey. Accessing station facilities and changing trains doesn't count as a break of journey.

Your ticket will have "validity: as advertised" or "validity: see restrictions" printed on it, probably in the bottom-right hand corner, which is your warning that the restriction exists on the ticket and that you should ask someone if you are unsure.

 

[cuccir]

t. Im still slightly confused because i dont see anywhere on my ticket about 8a exclusion just says any permitted etc

That's because, helpfully, National Rail choose not to publish this information on your ticket.

 

[bb21]

That's because, helpfully, National Rail choose not to publish this information on your ticket.

They can't because they only have so much room, otherwise I can't imagine how many coupons will be needed for each ticket if the full restriction text is printed.

For your reference OP, below is the full restriction text for your ticket:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
SVR - OFF-PEAK R TPE
00000 - ANY PERMITTED

1 Adult @£ 90.90 = £ 90.90
__________
£ 90.90

Standard Class Return

Restriction : 8A
Available as listed below on
any day.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
Valid on any train.

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.

RETURN TRAVEL
Valid on any train.
BVS/BVR/SVS/SVR OFF-PEAK
FSR/FSS/SFR/BFR/BFS
OFF-PEAK (First Class)

Outward/Single/Return Travel:
_____________AVAILABLE ANY DAY

Ticket Code: BVS/SVS
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: FSS/BFS
Ticket Class: FIRST
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: BVR/SVR
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: FSR/SFR/BFR
Ticket Class: FIRST
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

NOTES:
1) Time restrictions are
indicated by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
validity code.
2) Holders of Off-Peak ticket
types SVS/SVR, which are
discounted using 16-25, Senior
, Disabled Persons, HM Forces
and Family & Friends Railcards
, New Deal Photocards and
Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards,
may use ANY Virgin_train
service, provided that the
route on the ticket is not
"Virgin Trains Only" and the
journey being made is priced
by Virgin Trains. If the
journey is not priced by
Virgin Trains then the stated
Off-Peak restictions apply.
3) Only Senior, Disabled
persons and HM Forces
Railcards discounts are
offered with First Class
Off-Peak Tickets.

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE, and in
all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey does continue
into the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply. No further break of
journey is allowed except for
the purpose of changing
trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0230 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey).
If a passenger is_still
travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

Note: Cross London transfers
will only be accepted by
London Underground on the
date shown on the ticket (or
last day of validity for
Off-Peak Returns) and until
0429 the following day.

TICKET INFORMATION:
Off-Peak tickets are not valid
when the journey is affected
by a restriction shown against
the ticket's validity code.

Tickets with a 'Maltese Cross'
shown in the route description
allow transfer across London
on London Underground,
Docklands Light Railway or
First Capital Connect
(Thameslink route) services
appropriate to the route of
the through journey being made

Any local validity easements
can be found in the Easements
section- Easements
introduction to view.

Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section E0

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

SELLING AN OFF-PEAK TICKET
Customers should be told of
any restrictions which may
affect any part of their
journey.

Where available, an
information card giving ticket
validity details should be
given out with each Off-Peak
ticket.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You get the idea.

 

[yorkie]

Thank you for the prompt reply, where did you find out about the 8A Code as I cannot see that?

Before 'simplification' a couple of years ago, the rules were simple (or, according to the train companies, complicated), all tickets called Saver returns (which are now called different names, in your case it is now called Off Peak) were valid for break of journey (BOJ) on the return (rtn) portion but not on the outward (out) portion, which apparently includes starting/finishing short (though some people may dispute that!). In reality the rule was rarely enforced, and almost impossible to enforce anyway because you are permitted to go through barriers (where they exist) to use station facilities, you can even go into a pub for a few hours, as long as it's within the station (e.g. Bonapartes in Manchester, Coopers in York, etc...), also walks between stations are allowed (e.g. Manchester Vic - Manchester Pic, Birmingham New St - Birmingham Moor St, etc...), so if asked someone could easily give a legitimate excuse for passing through a barrier and the staff could not easily accuse the customer of breaking their journey. It's a silly rule anyway but that's another story...

Anyway after 'simplification' the rule was changed so Off Peak returns (which your ticket was renamed to) do permit BOJ on both out & rtn portions, unless a restriction code prevents it. There isn't anywhere that documents which restriction code applies to your ticket that is in the public domain. So, whether it is enforceable or not, is highly debatable.

As East Coast have barriers at Durham station, it is possible they may attempt to refuse you access to the station unless you pay an additional fare. It is also possible the ticket will open the barriers and you won't be questioned. However I don't know.

The train companies claim the new system is simpler, because your ticket describes when you can travel. In this case, your ticket is called Off Peak, which indicates you can travel at any time *cough* and you are allowed to break your journey unless a top secret code prevents it (for details, you are supposed to call a call centre several thousand miles away with no real knowledge, reading from a script) which in this case it does.

Yes, rail tickets are absolutely bonkers. Hence the popularity of this site (welcome, by the way!).

Would I be able to go fromc hester-le-street to manchester, then to wolverhampton ? or have I got to go
not that i wish to question, but i have called national rail and they have said i am permitted without charge to get on any train as long as my final destination is telford. A i have purchased an off peak return £90.90

Yes, that's right.

You can use any permitted route (e.g. via Manchester or via Derby) on any train.

 

[sheff1]

They can't because they only have so much room, otherwise I can't imagine how many coupons will be needed for each ticket if the full restriction text is printed.

As has been pointed out before there is no need to put the whole restriction on the ticket.

The validity codes are in the public domain (via NRES website) so all that is needed is for the code to be included on tickets where they currently show 'see restrictions' - e.g. 'see restriction 8A'.

Some have suggested this should not be done because most people wouldn't look the restriction up. I cannot buy this argument - printing the code has no adverse effect at all on those who are not interested, but the minimal extra info allows those who do want to look up the restriction for themselves to do so.

 

[CliveJones]

The restriction code should be shown. Especially if TOCs are going to close all the booking offices so making it harder to ask staff.

 

[Deerfold]

The restriction code should be shown. Especially if TOCs are going to close all the booking offices so making it harder to ask staff.

I agree with your point but I don't think they're going to close *all* the booking offices.

 

[Yew]

Couple of things here.
If they close booking offices, I imagine it will be borderline staions, (like worksop, ticket office, but no barriers, some of the buildings along the side of the platform are rented out (dance academy, cafe, bar, few other things) so giving anyone a legitimate get out if ever challanged for being on the platform)

Slight hijack, but still slightly related
Off peak returns; I use a railcard to get a return form lincoln to mansfield. However last time to took the jorney, a member of northern staff said that the minimum fare of £12 ( railcard, as it was before 10am) applied for my return part of the journey, was this correct?

 

[LexyBoy]

Off peak returns; I use a railcard to get a return form lincoln to mansfield. However last time to took the jorney, a member of northern staff said that the minimum fare of £12 ( railcard, as it was before 10am) applied for my return part of the journey, was this correct?

If either part of the journey is before 10 am then the minimum fare will apply to the ticket. Not really sure what your question is...?

 

[CliveJones]

I agree with your point but I don't think they're going to close *all* the booking offices.

I was being expressive

 

[Yew]

If either part of the journey is before 10 am then the minimum fare will apply to the ticket. Not really sure what your question is...?

My question was that the T's and C's on the £10.85 ticket say its valid for any time, however then the railcard says a minimum fare of 12 quid before 10, gets a bit confusing

 

[bb21]

My question was that the T's and C's on the £10.85 ticket say its valid for any time, however then the railcard says a minimum fare of 12 quid before 10, gets a bit confusing

Ticket restriction code applies to that ticket and it says that the ticket is valid from 04.30 onwards, making it effectively an anytime. However the minimum fare applies to the use of Y-P railcard, if any of your itinerary involves travelling before 10.00 on weekdays. If your railcard is a Senior one, for example, then the minimum fare would not apply and you would be able to enjoy the full discount.

The minimum fare does not negate the validity of the tickets. It's a separate thing.

 

[premier01]

The restriction code should be shown. Especially if TOCs are going to close all the booking offices so making it harder to ask staff.

I agree the restriction codes should be printed on the ticket otherwise I would think that legally it would be unenforceable in the same way that rules only available from The Manual are unenforceable as they aren't in the public domain-not a lawyer but sure that would be the case.

As for Durham station the barriers only accept tickets to/from Durham-any other tickets valid wont be accepted and the staff would need to check the tickets-this would then draw attention to the fact that you would be starting short and from a recent frustrating experience at this station I wouldn't think they would be up for letting you through.