Off Peak Return, London to Glasgow

[Keith Jarrett]

I am travelling London to Glasgow using an Off Peak Return (SVR) purchased with a Disabled Railcard outwards on a Wednesday, return on a Thursday/Friday.

Could some kind soul look up the current restrictions against this ticket with particular reference to
1. Is break of journey allowed on the outward journey? Thinking of a possible stop in Carlisle on day of travel and continuing later in the day, i.e. no overnight stop outward.
2. Does the Virgin railcard easement regardng the use of SVR tickets in the morning peak still apply so that I can catch the 07:30 from Euston? I cannot find anything on Virgin's website that will confirm this.
3. I assume that unrestricted break of journey is still allowed on the return leg including overnight stop(s). Am I correct?
4. What is the restriction code please in case I need to quote it whilst travelling?

Many thanks

KJ

 

[lemonic]

1. No outward break of journey
2. Yes, the easement still applies, you can catch any train with the railcard.
3. Yes, you are correct.
4. Restriction code 5F

 

[AlterEgo]

You shouldn't need to quote the restriction code, as it doesn't matter when you travel when using a Railcard. You can travel at any time you wish, but you cannot break your journey on the outward leg.

As Aleksander said, there's no restriction on breaking your journey (overnight or otherwise) on the return portion.

 

[John @ home]

1. No outward break of journey

This is correct, but a work-round is to buy a Super Off-Peak Return London - Falkirk Stations.

London Terminals - Glasgow Cen/QSt route Any Permitted
SVR £114.70 5F VWC

Restriction 5F
These restrictions apply Monday to Friday. By any train on other days.
Code 9F applies for journeys from via Kings Cross & Stevenage.
Code 9J applies for journeys from/via St Pancras Int'l.
OUTWARD TRAVEL
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to DEPART as shown below:
RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train that is scheduled to ARRIVE as shown below:
DEPART: LONDON EUSTON At or after 0905.
ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON At or after 1005 ... .
No Break of Journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains.
Valid on all ScotRail (FSR) Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement).

London Terminals - Falkirk Stations route Any Permitted
SSR £114.60 9F ECC

Restriction 9F
These restrictions apply Monday to Friday. By any train on other days.
For journeys from southern England via Birmingham on CrossCountry, use restriction code 2V or 8X as appropriate.
For journeys from Anglia via Ely, use restriction code 3V
Outward travel Northbound – by any train scheduled to depart: London Euston at or after 0905
Return travel Southbound – by any train scheduled to arrive: London Euston at or after 1005 ...
Break of Journey: (Outward) YES; (Return) YES.
Overnight Break of Journey (see break of journey notes at start of this section) - restarting journey from an intermediate station:
Outward (on day 2): outward morning restrictions as above apply from/via the stations shown above (Mon-Fri) and journey must recommence before 12.00 (all days). Recommencing from any other station en route that is north of the stations shown above must be on trains timed to depart 09.30-11.59 inclusive, Mon-Fri (by any train before 12.00 on Bank Holidays and other days)
Return: return restrictions as above apply, Mon-Fri.
Valid on all ScotRail (FSR) Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement).

This also saves a massive 10p!

 

[Lad Brookes]

This is correct, but a work-round is to buy a Super Off-Peak Return London - Falkirk Stations.


This also saves a massive 10p!

But as that is priced by EC and not a SVR, surely the Railcard easement of restrictions on VT doesn't apply?

 

[AlterEgo]

That is not an Off Peak Return - it doesn't qualify for the easement. A journey planner will not display tue fare for an early Virgin Train. The fact that it is priced by someone else is irrelevant.

 

[Lad Brookes]

It's not- the easement is in the restriction:

Restriction : 5F
These restrictions apply
Monday to Friday. By any train
on other days.

FOR TRAVEL TO OR VIA:
London (including Luton
Airport Parkway, Luton, Milton
Keynes, Watford Junction and
Reading) but NOT Kings Cross
& Stevenage & St. Pancras
Int'l.

Code 9F applies_for journeys
from via Kings Cross &
Stevenage.

Code 9J applies for journeys
from/via St Pancras Int'l

OUTWARD TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to DEPART as
shown below:

RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to ARRIVE_as
shown below:

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
At or after 0905.

ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON
At or after 1005

DEPART: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
At or after 0900

ARRIVE: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
At or after 1020

DEPART: WATFORD JUNCTION
At or after 0900

ARRIVE: WATFORD JUNCTION
At or after 1020

No Break of Journey allowed on
outward travel, except to
change trains.

Valid on all ScotRail (FSR)
Caledonian Sleeper services
(with supplement).

For Off-Peak journeys via
Hereford, Oxford & Newport see
Restriction YG.

For Super Off-Peak journeys
via Hereford, Oxford & Newport
see Restriction YQ.
BVS/BVR/SVS/SVR OFF-PEAK
FSR/FSS/SFR/BFR/BFS
OFF-PEAK (First Class)

Outward/Single/Return Travel:
_____________AVAILABLE ANY DAY

Ticket Code: BVS/SVS
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: FSS/BFS
Ticket Class: FIRST
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: BVR/SVR
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: FSR/SFR/BFR
Ticket Class: FIRST
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

NOTES:
1) Time restrictions are
indicated by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
validity code.
2) Holders of Off-Peak ticket
types SVS/SVR, which are
discounted using 16-25, Senior
, Disabled Persons, HM Forces
and Family & Friends Railcards
, New Deal Photocards and
Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards,
may use ANY Virgin_train
service, provided that the
route on the ticket is not
"Virgin Trains Only" and the
journey being made is priced
by Virgin Trains. If the
journey is not priced by
Virgin Trains then the stated
Off-Peak restictions apply.
3) Only Senior, Disabled
persons and HM Forces
Railcards discounts are
offered with First Class
Off-Peak Tickets.

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed on
the outward portion of
Off-Peak tickets UNLESS
OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A
RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE
TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE, and in
all cases on the return
portion of Off-Peak return
tickets.

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey does continue
into the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply. No further break of
journey is allowed except for
the purpose of changing
trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0230 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey).
If a passenger is_still
travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

Note: Cross London transfers
will only be accepted by
London Underground on the
date shown on the ticket (or
last day of validity for
Off-Peak Returns) and until
0429 the following day.

TICKET INFORMATION:
Off-Peak tickets are not valid
when the journey is affected
by a restriction shown against
the ticket's validity code.

Tickets with a 'Maltese Cross'
shown in the route description
allow transfer across London
on London Underground,
Docklands Light Railway or
First Capital Connect
(Thameslink route) services
appropriate to the route of
the through journey being made

Any local validity easements
can be found in the Easements
section- Easements
introduction to view.

Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section E0

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

SELLING AN OFF-PEAK TICKET
Customers should be told of
any restrictions which may
affect any part of their
journey.

Where available, an
information card giving ticket
validity details should be
given out with each Off-Peak
ticket.

 

[yorkie]

But as that is priced by EC

I realise some people may be bored that I keep saying this, but while people keep saying otherwise, I will keep saying it.....

This 'requirement' is (or was, last time I checked) not in the public domain, so not enforceable. Also VT TM's tended to announce (when I got VT; I rarely do now!) that Off Peak tickets with a Railcard are valid, they never specified "priced by Virgin trains", and there is no practicable/simple method for a customer to find out who prices their ticket. The only way we know about this silly 'rule' is that we have seen it in Avantix Traveller!

(Referring to the "rule" that only VT-priced SVRs can be used at any time. This "rule" is not in the public domain and is ludicrously unenforceable)

and not a SVR, surely the Railcard easement of restrictions on VT doesn't apply?

OK, I agree with you there, it's not an Off Peak Return, so I agree the easement doesn't apply.

Of course, it would be the same ticket type as the Glasgow ticket, if Passenger Focus hadn't had their way with "Simplification" (which was anything but). Yes, you can blame Passenger Focus for that, as it was they who insisted that ATOC simplify fares, despite there being inadequate controls on how ATOC did that. Anyone with some common sense who knows what ATOC are like can figure out that is not a good idea.

 

[First class]

Unfourtunately the Falkirk ticket appears to be a SuperSaver (Super Off Peak) rather than Saver (Off Peak). The railcard easement seemingly only applies to Off Peak.

 

[yorkie]

It's not- the easement is in the restriction:

Yes, and as I keep saying every few weeks, that isn't in the public domain and isn't what customers are told.

Does anyone seriously think that a customer is expected to know who prices their ticket, and also are TMs really expected to look up in their Avantix machine who prices the ticket? If so, the queues at information desks would be rather long and TMs wouldn't have a hope of checking all the tickets. Customer Services would also be rather busy with complaints, and I'd expect yet another unwanted (but arguably more warranted) appearance on Watchdog.

As I said back in April

It is advertised as being off peak tickets on Virgin Trains, and that is what guards announce.

If anyone honestly believes that a guard will look up the restriction code of each ticket, and then quote from a hidden manual that the general public have no access to, and charge an excess fare because the journey is "priced by another TOC" is, quite frankly in some sort of cloud cuckoo land.

And in February 2010 (not for the first time)

I've said it before, but I don't see how it has to be priced by Virgin. What freely available to the public source states that only Virgin priced tickets can be used, and what freely available to the public source states which TOC prices a particular ticket? Given that it is announced that Off Peak tickets are valid, and given that you cannot find out who sets the fare without usign Avantix or the FRPP it has to be totally and utterly unenforceable to attempt to restrict it to journeys priced by Virgin.

My view has not, and will never, change on this issue.

Yes, people can disagree, but it defies logic to disagree, and has anyone ever been charged by a ludicrously "desperate" guard because their ticket was priced by another TOC? I suspect not, or we'd have heard about it (and I would have got it overturned with a well-worded letter, of that I am very confident).

 

[island]

All right Yorkie, calm down

 

[tony_mac]

On a completely unrelated note, there are some quite nice station facilities at Carlisle, and no ticket barriers.
It's a very good spot to spend a couple of hours freight spotting, without leaving the station premises.

(Some of us don't believe that off-peak break of journey restrictions are sufficiently published to meet the requirements of the NRCoC.)

 

[jkdd77]

(Some of us don't believe that off-peak break of journey restrictions are sufficiently published to meet the requirements of the NRCoC.)

I raised this very issue (the opacity and lack of clarity at the time of purchase of BoJ restrictions on flexible tickets) with the Office of the Rail Regulator last year, who updated me last week that they are "still investigating".

Any BoJ restrictions form part of the contractual agreement for travel as entered into at the time of purchase, so I don't see that making people pay to access an 0845 number is sufficiently clear to fulfil the requirements of NRCOC 16, especially in the case of walk-up tickets purchased from TVMs for immediate travel from unstaffed stations.

It is not directly relevant to this thread unless the OP chooses instead to travel outwards to Glasgow via Stevenage, but East Coast have told me in an e-mail (available on request by pm) that a London-Glasgow Off-Peak Return takes restriction code 9F (rather than 5F) when routed via London and Stevenage, and therefore BoJ is, in this case, permitted even on the outward leg.

How gate staff at (say) Carlisle are meant to know "which way" a passenger has come (and therefore whether BoJ is permitted on the outward leg) is beyond me.

I guess this is "Simplification" for you!

 

[John @ home]

But as that is priced by EC and not a SVR, surely the Railcard easement of restrictions on VT doesn't apply?

Agreed. My post #4 has solved an obstacle to the OP's Q1 by creating one to his Q2.

 

[Keith Jarrett]

Thanks for your help guys. You pretty much confirmed what I suspected

As far as I can remember there used to be a Super Off Peak return from London to Glasgow as well as the usual Off Peak return. The Super Off Peak Return seems to have disappeared but the Off Peak return seems to have been reduced in price to about the level of the previous Super Off Peak Return. Is this an isolated case or are Virgin in the process od abolishing Super Off Peak Returns and reducing the prices of their Off Peak Returns to compensate?

 

[John @ home]

Virgin have not (yet) had Super Off-Peak Returns for flows where they set the fare. But Super Off-Peak Returns set by other train companies can be used on Virgin trains subject to route and time restrictions. The London - Glasgow Super Off-Peak Return has been withdrawn and East Coast now set a number of London - Glasgow route York fares.

EC's London - Falkirk Super Off-Peak Return can be used as a London - Glasgow Central return ticket. Its restrictions are listed in post #4.

 

[AlterEgo]

Virgin have not (yet) had Super Off-Peak Returns for flows where they set the fare. But Super Off-Peak Returns set by other train companies can be used on Virgin trains subject to route and time restrictions. The London - Glasgow Super Off-Peak Return has been withdrawn and East Coast now set a number of London - Glasgow route York fares.

EC's London - Falkirk Super Off-Peak Return can be used as a London - Glasgow Central return ticket. Its restrictions are listed in post #4.

Virgin are bringing in some Super Off Peak fares on the West Midlands Route, later this month. They are routed "Virgin Trains Only". They are not able to be used in the peak with a Railcard, as they aren't SVS/SVRs, they're SSS/SSR fares.

 

[island]

Virgin are bringing in some Super Off Peak fares on the West Midlands Route, later this month. They are routed "Virgin Trains Only". They are not able to be used in the peak with a Railcard, as they aren't SVS/SVRs, they're SSS/SSR fares.

Or in the alternative because they're routed VIRGIN TRNSONLY.

 

[benk1342]

Given that "there is no practicable/simple method for a customer to find out who prices their ticket", how would a curious/interested customer find out?

 

[AlterEgo]

Given that "there is no practicable/simple method for a customer to find out who prices their ticket", how would a curious/interested customer find out?

You're not supposed to ask questions like that!

Seriously, it's nearly impossible. Giving the TOC a call may yield some results. Or you could post on RailUK....

 

[ainsworth74]

Given that "there is no practicable/simple method for a customer to find out who prices their ticket", how would a curious/interested customer find out?

Buy purchasing Avantix Traveller NFM 09 from here this piece of software is a database of all the fares in GB and includes information on who prices tickets.

However much simpler and cheaper is simply to ask on here

 

[benk1342]

Buy purchasing Avantix Traveller NFM 09 from here

Thanks---I was thinking of doing that since I find it frustrating to have anything less than ALL the information!

 

[tony_mac]

You're not supposed to ask questions like that!

Seriously, it's nearly impossible. Giving the TOC a call may yield some results. Or you could post on RailUK....

There is a Virgin leaflet that says something like 'most journeys' qualify and you must contact them to get a definitive answer.

 

[Paul Kelly]

When you click through to buy a ticket on the National Rail Enquiries site, as far as I'm aware it redirects you to the website of the TOC that sets the fare. Also next to the "Buy" button, there is a box headed "Fare Information" that says which TOCs set the fares on the route.