Off peak/peak v Advance

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, why? You presumably wouldn’t expect that on a coach or aircraft.

I would expect to be able to alight early on a coach, and you mostly can aside from NatEx's "Heathrow tax". How do you propose I do that on a flight, parachute? (I know there's the skiplagging thing but I think they shouldn't legally be able to penalise people for that).

 

[Starmill]

I would expect to be able to alight early on a coach, and you mostly can aside from NatEx's "Heathrow tax". How do you propose I do that on a flight, parachute? (I know there's the skiplagging thing but I think they shouldn't legally be able to penalise people for that).

You can freely alight early at Heathrow etc on the coach lines too, provided you keep your luggage with you.

Irish Rail prohibit it too. I'm not aware of any continental railways who try, and in general it's permitted to exit early even with the booked train only tickets.

 

[tehmarks]

I see some comments on this thread that the general public travelling intercity isn't really interested in flexibilitty; that having a seat on a specific service isn't a major compromise, and that it's mainly rail enthusiasts with niche use cases that care.

I travel between Edinburgh and London (and Edinburgh and Manchester) very regularly for work. I'm self-employed and I'm often not recharging travel to clients (who themselves would be price-sensitive if I were). It makes a huge difference to me if I have to travel on a specific service. I'm generally not able to book travel until a week or so before the work. It's often impossible to have an accurate idea of the finish time until I arrive, and I also often don't have an accurate idea of the start time until close to the day. I officially work a 12h (max) day but the event might be done and finished in 6. I spend an absurd amount of time waiting for trains because I have an advance ticket because the flexible option is unrealistically expensive.

Quite often I end up driving simply because I don't have enough information to be able to commit to booking a specific train until such time the fare is unrealistically expensive and significantly more expensive than driving. All of these journeys - every single one of them - would be made by train if I could buy a flexible ticket that didn't cost almost 50% of my day rate. It shouldn't be possible that it's cheaper for me to drive a car, with single occupancy, to London and back, than it is to run a train with however many hundred seats to London and back. It definitely shouldn't be the case that it's significantly more expensive.

I am far from the only person in the country who has this use case. Beyond the personal effects, it's an impediment to business as a whole and seems economically short-sighted. But I guess that's what happens when the railway exists to generate profit for private companies rather than being operated to maximise public benefit.

 

[43066]

It shouldn't be possible that it's cheaper for me to drive a car, with single occupancy, to London and back, than it is to run a train with however many hundred seats to London and back. It definitely shouldn't be the case that it's significantly more expensive.

I don’t follow this. It will be a lot more expensive to run a train from Edinburgh to London (a five figure sum) than to run a car with five seats over a similar distance. The train may well cost more per seat in the case of smaller trains (eg Lumo’s five car units).

It shouldn't be possible that it's cheaper for me to drive a car, with single occupancy, to London and back, than it is to run a train with however many hundred seats to London and back. It definitely shouldn't be the case that it's significantly more expensive.

A drive from London to Edinburgh (not likely to be much less than eight hours, even at quiet times) is more than many people would wish to do in a day. And I wonder whether you’re travelling into central London, where parking/congestion charge is also a factor.

As someone who is self employed, surely you’re able to deduct travel costs as allowable expenses when calculating your tax bill? That would seem to put you into the category of someone “travelling on expenses”.

I spend an absurd amount of time waiting for trains because I have an advance ticket because the flexible option is unrealistically expensive.

More time than you’d spend in the car on an 8 hour drive, when the train takes 4.5 hours?

I am far from the only person in the country who has this use case. Beyond the personal effects, it's an impediment to business as a whole and seems economically short-sighted. But I guess that's what happens when the railway exists to generate profit for private companies rather than being operated to maximise public benefit.

It isn’t really to do with private companies making profits - it’s more to do with longstanding political choices by both main parties around setting subsidy levels. Hence LNER fares won’t reduce as a result of nationalisation. To make trains consistently cheaper than car travel would require huge amounts more subsidy and a massive increase in capacity, which there simply isn’t any political appetite for.

 

[tehmarks]

As someone who is self employed, surely you’re able to deduct travel costs as allowable expenses when calculating your tax bill? That would seem to put you into the category of someone “travelling on expenses”.

It still comes out of my income - buying a £100 train ticket doesn't reduce my tax bill by £100.

More time than you’d spend in the car on an 8 hour drive, when the train takes 4.5 hours?

Last week I went for a three hour wander around Manchester because I couldn't be 100% certain that the event would finish in time to catch the earlier train (it did). It happens week in, week out. Do I spend more time doing that than I do driving? It's hard to say - but one of those is just the natural outcome of getting into your chosen method of transport and driving at 70mph, and one is an entirely unnecessary unrestriction on a mode of transport that has the great advantage of running to a regular timetable and having massively more capacity than any of the alternative modes of transport.

 

[paul1609]

I see some comments on this thread that the general public travelling intercity isn't really interested in flexibilitty; that having a seat on a specific service isn't a major compromise, and that it's mainly rail enthusiasts with niche use cases that care.

I travel between Edinburgh and London (and Edinburgh and Manchester) very regularly for work. I'm self-employed and I'm often not recharging travel to clients (who themselves would be price-sensitive if I were). It makes a huge difference to me if I have to travel on a specific service. I'm generally not able to book travel until a week or so before the work. It's often impossible to have an accurate idea of the finish time until I arrive, and I also often don't have an accurate idea of the start time until close to the day. I officially work a 12h (max) day but the event might be done and finished in 6. I spend an absurd amount of time waiting for trains because I have an advance ticket because the flexible option is unrealistically expensive.

Quite often I end up driving simply because I don't have enough information to be able to commit to booking a specific train until such time the fare is unrealistically expensive and significantly more expensive than driving. All of these journeys - every single one of them - would be made by train if I could buy a flexible ticket that didn't cost almost 50% of my day rate. It shouldn't be possible that it's cheaper for me to drive a car, with single occupancy, to London and back, than it is to run a train with however many hundred seats to London and back. It definitely shouldn't be the case that it's significantly more expensive.

I am far from the only person in the country who has this use case. Beyond the personal effects, it's an impediment to business as a whole and seems economically short-sighted. But I guess that's what happens when the railway exists to generate profit for private companies rather than being operated to maximise public benefit.

I used to have the same problem from Kent to various locations in the central belt. The best solution was easyJet plus as they allowed you to travel on an earlier flight free of charge if there was space. A day trip to Scotland including trials by train wouldn't have been realistic in my case and the £250 cost of plus membership per year was easily recouped against hotel charges.

 

[43066]

It still comes out of my income - buying a £100 train ticket doesn't reduce my tax bill by £100.

Fair point. Albeit (assuming you’re a higher rate tax payer) you’re getting something of the order of a 42% discount once tax and NI is taken into account.

Do I spend more time doing that than I do driving? It's hard to say

Personally I’ve found my recent long distance UK motorway drives so hellish that I would only contemplate them by doing a very early or late start. So that would restrict my timings more than an advance train ticket - appreciate that will vary by journey.

and one is an entirely unnecessary unrestriction on a mode of transport that has the great advantage of running to a regular timetable and having massively more capacity than any of the alternative modes of transport.

The railway doesn’t have massively more capacity than alternative modes of transport, though. The capacity it does have is finite and extremely expensive to increase.

Certainly when this was discussed before there were figures to show that ECML rail operators now account for a higher % of travel from SE/London to Scotland than flights, so that suggests they’re doing something right, and people are prepared to either pay for flexible tickets or accept the restrictions of advanced tickets.

 

[philthetube]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the effect on priv holders

 

[Bald Rick]

You could but there is more capacity on the south end of the east coast than there is on the west coast up to Preston, Manchester and Brum, loads of room most of the time.

Err there isn’t. Both the south end of the east coast and the south end of the west coast are officially ‘full’.

 

[43066]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the effect on priv holders

Although of course priv is on walk up rather than advance tickets (I gather some advances can work out the same or cheaper than priv, but they’re few and far between).