Off-Peak on London Midland

[faddy]

Do the Off-Peak conditions shown on the LM website relate only to tickets routed "London Midland only" or do they also cover "any permissible route" tickets? E.g. can an "any permissible" Off-Peak London -> Liverpool be used to depart London during the evening at times when it's not valid on VT?

(for anyone who's spotted that I've recently asked about the VT railcard easement, there are people in my family without railcards)

 

[maniacmartin]

Peak restrictions are set by the specific ticket held, and depend on the combination of ticket type, origin, destination and route. Each ticket that is available for purchase will have a restriction code, which is 2 characters long and corresponds to a specific set of time restrictions.

You can find these restrictions if you search deep within National Rail Enquiries, or use the unofficial site BRfares which uses the same data source.

To answer your specific question about London to Liverpool, we need to know the exact ticket, but generally the time restrictions are by route or station, and not by operator. For example here is the London Terminals to Liverpool Lime Street Off-Peak Return (SVR) which has restriction code 9I. The relevant text is in the left-hand column under 'Specific Restrictions'

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
Before 0430, between 0926 &
1500 (inc.) and at or after
1845.

The restrictions for the example ticket I quoted are set by Virgin, but they would still apply even if a London Midland train was used, as the restrictions apply to the ticket, not the train

 

[faddy]

Peak restrictions are set by the specific ticket held, and depend on the combination of ticket type, origin, destination and route. Each ticket that is available for purchase will have a restriction code, which is 2 characters long and corresponds to a specific set of time restrictions.

You can find these restrictions if you search deep within National Rail Enquiries, or use the unofficial site BRfares which uses the same data source.

To answer your specific question about London to Liverpool, we need to know the exact ticket, but generally the time restrictions are by route or station, and not by operator. For example here is the London Terminals to Liverpool Lime Street Off-Peak Return (SVR) which as restriction code 9I. The relevant text is in the left-hand column under 'Specific Restrictions'


The restrictions for the example ticket I quoted are set by Virgin, but they would still apply even if a London Midland train was used, as the restrictions apply to the ticket, not the train

So the information here only relates to "route London Midland" tickets?

 

[bb21]

So the information here only relates to "route London Midland" tickets?

These are very broad generalisations to give people a rough idea.

Specific restrictions must be checked against each different fare individually.

 

[faddy]

So the information here only relates to "route London Midland" tickets?

Perhaps I should have said tickets whose restrictions are set by LM?

 

[bb21]

They are generally for flows priced by LM, ime, regardless of the routing on the ticket.

It is very difficult to draw generalisations despite what some TOCs try to do.

 

[faddy]

They are generally for flows priced by LM, ime, regardless of the routing on the ticket.

It is very difficult to draw generalisations despite what some TOCs try to do.

It seems counter-intuitive to be unable to travel on a train with an "any permitted route" ticket but to be able to with a cheaper "LM only" ticket. Presumably down to how revenue is shared, or not?

 

[bb21]

You cannot think of railway ticketing with ordinary logic, or your head will soon explode.

It is down to the fragmented nature of the industry, possibly partly due to revenue distribution.

Case in hand: London Terminals - Peterborough Off-Peak Day Return

£17.50 (FCC Only) - Outward valid after 0930, return no restriction.
£21.10 (Any Permitted) - Outward barred between 0300 and 0953, and between 1540 and 1901 from King's Cross, return also with similar heavy restrictions.

So an FCC service timed at 1800 from King's Cross is perfectly valid on the cheaper ticket, but not the more expensive one.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Any Permitted ticket is usually priced by the premium operator (e.g. Virgin or East Coast) who may have different ideas about what peak should be, compared to the slower operator, and it is their rules which apply to holders of these tickets, regardless of whose train you actually travel on.

As LM are the slower operator, they have to do more to convince you to buy their tickets. As such, it's not that crazy that the London Midland Only ticket has more generous hours. After all, on their trains it'll take you longer to get to your destination anyway.

(My head has already exploded I think)