Off Peak, not allowed to enter station?

[Badger]

I regularly go Leicester to Wolverhampton, with a LEI-BHM return, and a Network West Midlands off peak pass.

Now, usually, I stay in the station at New Street and just board the first train after 1800 (the 1801 to Liverpool Lime Street).

However on this occasion I was a bit early, so I left the station and got a drink from the Palasades. I went to go back into the station, at 17:54. The ticket guy called be back and said I needed to go back through the barriers, as my pass wasn't valid until 1800.

"But my train is at 1801" "That doesn't matter." "But I'll miss my train." "That doesn't matter."

As I suspected, when I came to go through at 1800, 30 seconds (doors) wasn't enough time to get to 4C... hence I missed my train.

In fairness, I could have waited for the 1805 to Shrewsbury anyway, but this meant I missed my bus, which at that time of night are half hourly, so when I got back my sausages and mash were cold.

Was he in the right or was I? Am I doomed to either be thirsty or have cold sausages from now on?

 

[AlterEgo]

Honestly I'd have just walked off.

I suggest writing to London Midland to ask them why they prevented you from
boarding the correct train.

 

[dvboy]

I'd have walked off too. I'm surprised they took that much notice at your season ticket.

I've you'd entered the station at Victoria Square you'd have probably had no problem.

If you have twitter I suggest you tweet @londonmidland too, they are usually quite pro-active.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Sounds as if the staff were taking the "rules" slightly too literally. On a time restricted ticket, it would seem logical to allow the passenger access to the platforms once the last barred service for that ticket has departed, as the main reason for not letting people through is to make sure they don't get on an earlier service than their ticket entitles them to!

I get similar issues with the Freedom pass, passengers wanting to go from Clapham Junction to Victoria, want me to let them inside the barriers up to 15mins earlier than the 9:30 time that their pass becomes valid, I decline because there are trains every few minutes going there!

 

[Yew]

He is definitely in the wrong, the ticket is not valid for TRAVEL until 18:00, but nothing about access to the platforms.

I would suggest writing to the TOC that run the station asking for an apology and to ensure staff are correctly trained so this does not happen again (and possibly some lessons in tact and manners)

 

[dvboy]

On a time restricted ticket, it would seem logical to allow the passenger access to the platforms once the last barred service for that ticket has departed, as the main reason for not letting people through is to make sure they don't get on an earlier service than their ticket entitles them to!

That would be 1759 (LM to Great Malvern). Nowhere near enough time to get from the concourse to platform 4c for the 1801 (although having said that, it is actually timetabled from 4b).

 

[yorkie]

Definitely write in. Make the complaint polite, concise but also assertive. State exactly what compensation would be satisfactory. I would also ask if assurances can be given that suitable training will be given to staff, and ask for a date by which this will be complete.

If you do not get a satisfactory response, you can PM me the details of your case and I'll ask a contact to have a word with someone at LM to ensure it is dealt with appropriately, and if that doesn't work take it to Passenger Focus.

 

[Badger]

It may well have been 4b to be honest, I just always expect it to be on c.

Yeah there's several that are right up to the 1800 cut off so that wouldn't really work.

TOC that run the station

Network Rail but London Midland handle the ticket barriers.

 

[dvboy]

It may well have been 4b to be honest, I just always expect it to be on c.

Timetabled, the 1801 goes from 4b and the 1805 from 4c.

This may be because the 1801 is formed by a train from the south.

 

[185]

Utter stupidity.

:bangsheadagainstwall:

Mod Edit: Is this the emoticon you were looking for?

 

[transmanche]

I get similar issues with the Freedom pass, passengers wanting to go from Clapham Junction to Victoria, want me to let them inside the barriers up to 15mins earlier than the 9:30 time that their pass becomes valid, I decline because there are trains every few minutes going there!

Ooh, that's a tough one for you - because if they told you they were going to Shepherd's Bush, I guess you'd have to let them through.

 

[Brucey]

I get similar issues with the Freedom pass, passengers wanting to go from Clapham Junction to Victoria, want me to let them inside the barriers up to 15mins earlier than the 9:30 time that their pass becomes valid, I decline because there are trains every few minutes going there!

What if someone wishes to use the station facilities, e.g. toilets, coffee shop, flower kiosk, etc? Or are those only privileges for passengers on anytime tickets?

 

[island]

Well, there are facilities in the station before and after the barriers.

 

[Smethwickian]

Well, there are facilities in the station before and after the barriers.

Not toilets, there aren't. The nearest to the concourse at Birmingham New Street are across St Martin's Circus just inside the entrance to the Bullring centre. That's not 'in the station', so it would be quite unreasonable for a ticket barrier to refuse someone access the necessary few minutes earlier than any scheduled journey or time restriction.

 

[Z12XE]

Similar problem at Liverpool Street a while back.

A friend of mine had an off peak TCD, the guy on the gate said that my friend had to wait until 18.34 before he could board the 18.38 service, as they "had to allow those with full price tickets to get the seats"

Complete BS, just like the situation Badger was in, the 18.38 is an off peak service. The guy on the gates further down agreed and let him through.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Not toilets, there aren't. The nearest to the concourse at Birmingham New Street are across St Martin's Circus just inside the entrance to the Bullring centre. That's not 'in the station', so it would be quite unreasonable for a ticket barrier to refuse someone access the necessary few minutes earlier than any scheduled journey or time restriction.

Luckily at Clapham Junction, the toilets are right by one of the Gatelines, they also cost entry so if anyone genuinely has the entry fee then I would let them through the barriers to use the toilets.

Not letting people through because of time restricted tickets, has only become enforced so strictly because people have abused past goodwill and gone on trains they weren't entitled to travel on.

 

[Z12XE]

Not letting people through because of time restricted tickets, has only become enforced so strictly because people have abused past goodwill and gone on trains they weren't entitled to travel on.

But common sense should also be used. If the restriction ends at 1800, then letting people through at 1800 for an 1801 is likely to create unnecessary problems.

At one station I work at we dont refuse to sell off peak travelcards at 0900, even though they are not valid until the 2nd train in 15 mins time, but having people waiting until the earlier peak train had gone would cause more problems than simply telling them to get the off peak service.

 

[jopsuk]

outboundary off-peak Day Travelcards are a confusing one from london Terminals- as they tend to have the off peak day return's restrictions as far as leaving the travelcard area goes, but as I understand it, there's no evening peak restriction on the travelcard itself, which means that you can board a "banned" train as long as you alight before you leave London?

 

[bb21]

outboundary off-peak Day Travelcards are a confusing one from london Terminals- as they tend to have the off peak day return's restrictions as far as leaving the travelcard area goes, but as I understand it, there's no evening peak restriction on the travelcard itself, which means that you can board a "banned" train as long as you alight before you leave London?

This is correct, although doesn't help in the case of a non-stop service.

 

[island]

This is correct, although doesn't help in the case of a non-stop service.

...unless you have a boundary zone 6 to wherever SDS!

 

[wintonian]

...unless you have a boundary zone 6 to wherever SDS!

But often the restriction is for example "trains departing London terminals at or after"

So for another example a passenger has a Southampton to London super off-peak travel card which is barred for departure from London terminals (Paddington is slightly different) between 16:00 and 19:00.

In this case they can get any train to Surbiton but can not go past Surbiton unless they board a train that departed Waterloo at 19:01 or later. There are also restrictions for Vauxhall and Clapham Junction but in this case they are meaningless.

Edit: Doh! just realised you said SDS.

 

[34D]

This is correct, although doesn't help in the case of a non-stop service.

Yes - a lot of FCC off-peak travelcards to Hitchin etc tell the Kings Cross barrier people they are going to Finsbury Park/etc, risk an excess on the train, then more often than not get let out at the other end.

Luckily at Clapham Junction, the toilets are right by one of the Gatelines, they also cost entry so if anyone genuinely has the entry fee then I would let them through the barriers to use the toilets.

Not letting people through because of time restricted tickets, has only become enforced so strictly because people have abused past goodwill and gone on trains they weren't entitled to travel on.

I am a little concerned/upset that you (as presumed SWT staff at CLJ) are refusing access to platforms for freedom pass holders, and I wonder whether this is your own policy or one from above?

As previously stated, Overground and Southern passengers travelling to Willesden/Harrow may use their freedom pass at anytime (OAPs from 9am on Southern, disabled any time), so are entitled to access platforms (including other platforms, for refreshments/etc) at any time. If they go towards Victoria or Waterloo then that is an issue for on-train revenue (or barrier staff at the other end), not CLJ barrier staff.

As a point of note, the first eligible trains appear to be 2D20 0931 to Waterloo from Plat 10, and 2F05 0931 to Victoria from Plat 14 - I am sure all on this forum would take a dim view of any freedom pass holder refused platform access in good time to get coffee/cake/toilet then one of these trains.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I am a little concerned/upset that you (as presumed SWT staff at CLJ) are refusing access to platforms for freedom pass holders, and I wonder whether this is your own policy or one from above?

As previously stated, Overground and Southern passengers travelling to Willesden/Harrow may use their freedom pass at anytime (OAPs from 9am on Southern, disabled any time), so are entitled to access platforms (including other platforms, for refreshments/etc) at any time. If they go towards Victoria or Waterloo then that is an issue for on-train revenue (or barrier staff at the other end), not CLJ barrier staff.

As a point of note, the first eligible trains appear to be 2D20 0931 to Waterloo from Plat 10, and 2F05 0931 to Victoria from Plat 14 - I am sure all on this forum would take a dim view of any freedom pass holder refused platform access in good time to get coffee/cake/toilet then one of these trains.

WHERE did I say that I would not let someone wanting to use the Overground on a freedom pass through? I mentioned Victoria, which clearly has the restriction until 9:30am and with trains running every minute or two. I doubt someone would take a "dim view" of missing the 09:31 when there are services at 09:32, 09:33, 09:34 etc...!

I am well aware of Freedom pass holders being able to travel on the Overground at any time and on the Watford Southern service if they hold a disabled persons Freedom pass at any time and from 9am for OAP.

You say it is not originating station's barrier staff's problem, I beg to differ. As someone managing to get on a barred service will likely be able to exit the barriers at the other end as it will likely be past 09:30 when they arrive at their destination, we have a duty to ensure this doesn't happen.

 

[34D]

WHERE did I say that I would not let someone wanting to use the Overground on a freedom pass through? I mentioned Victoria, which clearly has the restriction until 9:30am and with trains running every minute or two. I doubt someone would take a "dim view" of missing the 09:31 when there are services at 09:32, 09:33, 09:34 etc...!

I am well aware of Freedom pass holders being able to travel on the Overground at any time and on the Watford Southern service if they hold a disabled persons Freedom pass at any time and from 9am for OAP.

You say it is not originating station's barrier staff's problem, I beg to differ. As someone managing to get on a barred service will likely be able to exit the barriers at the other end as it will likely be past 09:30 when they arrive at their destination, we have a duty to ensure this doesn't happen.

I'll remind you of your words on page 1 of this thread:

I get similar issues with the Freedom pass, passengers wanting to go from Clapham Junction to Victoria, want me to let them inside the barriers up to 15mins earlier than the 9:30 time that their pass becomes valid, I decline because there are trains every few minutes going there!

As stated, freedom pass holders are allowed inside CLJ at any time - and your duty is confined to telling them that they can't board a train to most destinations until after 09:30.

 

[londonbridge]

You say it is not originating station's barrier staff's problem, I beg to differ. As someone managing to get on a barred service will likely be able to exit the barriers at the other end as it will likely be past 09:30 when they arrive at their destination, we have a duty to ensure this doesn't happen.

Have you considered the possibility of on-board ticket checks where it could be established that they must have boarded the train before the pass was valid? I'm reminded of a time I was coming from Victoria to Croydon,a young couple got on in my carriage at CJ and sat down,a couple of minutes later a ticket inspector entered the carriage,the girl looked agitated and was telling the guy with her that she only had zones 4-6 on her travelcard. When he reached them the inspector scanned her card then moved on to the next passenger. Surely he should have realised that the girl was travelling out of zone as the only two places she could have boarded were Victoria or Clapham. (This was before PAYG was accepted on NR).

 

[MikeWh]

As he says, he did not mention Overground at all. If someone said they were going to Shepherds Bush then he'd obviously let them through. But if they say Victoria then I can't see a need to be inside before about 9.25. Clapham Juncton is not unique in this respect; all over London there are staff denying access to off-peak ticket and freedom pass holders until the last train before 9.30 has departed.

 

[island]

I'll remind you of your words on page 1 of this thread:



As stated, freedom pass holders are allowed inside CLJ at any time - and your duty is confined to telling them that they can't board a train to most destinations until after 09:30.

If a passenger admits that he/she wants to travel CLJ-VIC before 0930 on a freedom pass, then the gateline attendant is absolutely entitled to tell him/her to wait.

If he/she has a change of mind and then wants to travel to KPA instead, then he/she must be allowed through.

 

[Urban Gateline]

As he says, he did not mention Overground at all. If someone said they were going to Shepherds Bush then he'd obviously let them through. But if they say Victoria then I can't see a need to be inside before about 9.25. Clapham Juncton is not unique in this respect; all over London there are staff denying access to off-peak ticket and freedom pass holders until the last train before 9.30 has departed.

Precisely, I have no problem letting people through if they say they want to use London Overground or Southern to Watford Junction using their Freedom pass.

your duty is confined to telling them that they can't board a train to most destinations until after 09:30.

Ahhh ok is it now? I shall bear that in mind, thanks. As far as I am aware, my "duties" are decided by the London Area Revenue Manager or the Station Management team, of which you are neither so please don't try telling me to how to do my job!

 

[34D]

Ahhh ok is it now? I shall bear that in mind, thanks. As far as I am aware, my "duties" are decided by the London Area Revenue Manager or the Station Management team, of which you are neither so please don't try telling me to how to do my job!

I've already asked whether your 'policy' is your own or from management, and didn't receive an answer....

I'm not trying to offend you, however I don't like this policy

 

[Smethwickian]

As he says, he did not mention Overground at all. If someone said they were going to Shepherds Bush then he'd obviously let them through. But if they say Victoria then I can't see a need to be inside before about 9.25. Clapham Juncton is not unique in this respect; all over London there are staff denying access to off-peak ticket and freedom pass holders until the last train before 9.30 has departed.

I'm an able bodied and not particularly unfit person in his mid-40s but even I'm not sure, depending on the size of the station and its layout, I'd always be happy to be given a maximum of five minutes to go up and down stairs or along subways or footbridges to reach the relevant platform in time.

Sounds like certain staff are having a bit of fun for themselves lining passengers up for an Olympic sprint when they deem it time to let them through. Hardly customer-friendly, is it?

But then one grows wearisome of certain rail staff members' attitude that every single passenger all day every day is always wrong, always on the fiddle, utterly stupid and contemptible and, frankly, just a nuisance to the smooth running of the railway. "Passengers cluttering up our stations and trains indeed... how dare they."