Off Peak day Travel card - Validity on Underground

[Haywain]

Of course, the net result of all this will most likely be the reimposition of time restrictions on these tickets on Fridays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, the net result of all this will most likely be the reimposition of time restrictions on these tickets on Fridays.

Or at least the addition of the note I suggested above restricting use on TfL services to 0930 or later.

 

[The exile]

Or at least the addition of the note I suggested above restricting use on TfL services to 0930 or later.

Or something that recognises these "from out of boundary" travelcards for what they are - day returns to London plus a travelcard. No reason why different sets of restrictions shouldn't apply to the two separate elements.

 

[pelli]

Indeed, surely the long-term fix should be to make all official sources define outboundary Off-Peak Day Travelcards as being valid for a (possibly broken) return journey from the origin to London Terminals according to the restriction code, plus unlimited travel according to the standard Travelcard conditions between 09:30 and 28:29, since that's likely what's being enforced by barriers, gateline staff, bus drivers and inspectors anyway? Tough luck to anyone with a "legitimate" Off-Peak train arriving before 09:30! Seems easier than tinkering with restriction codes (whether it is to ensure no trains between 00:00 and 09:something are valid on the outbound, or adding an exclusionary note), but maybe involves more bureaucracy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, surely the long-term fix should be to make all official sources define outboundary Off-Peak Day Travelcards as being valid for a (possibly broken) return journey from the origin to London Terminals according to the restriction code, plus unlimited travel according to the standard Travelcard conditions between 09:30 and 28:29, since that's likely what's being enforced by barriers, gateline staff, bus drivers and inspectors anyway? Tough luck to anyone with a "legitimate" Off-Peak train arriving before 09:30! Seems easier than tinkering with restriction codes (whether it is to ensure no trains between 00:00 and 09omething are valid on the outbound, or adding an exclusionary note), but maybe involves more bureaucracy?

They're a bit more than that. They are an off peak day return to any station on boundary zone 6 which would be on a Permitted Route (subject to any route restriction on the ticket) to any chosen station within Zones 1-6, plus the unlimited travel element. Most usage is indeed to London Terminals but that's not the only option.

However it wouldn't be hard to add to the restriction code "On Transport for London services within Zones 1-6, except where National Rail tickets are dual-accepted and on a Permitted Route into the Travelcard area, travel is not permitted until after 0930". I'd be surprised not to see that chucked in there fairly soon.

There's already a "known" split, e.g. LNR Super Off Peak Travelcards can be used for travel within the Zones in the evening peak (including on LNR services between Euston and Harrow), but not for travel on LNR services out of the Zones.

 

[pelli]

They're a bit more than that. They are an off peak day return to any station on boundary zone 6 which would be on a Permitted Route (subject to any route restriction on the ticket) to any chosen station within Zones 1-6, plus the unlimited travel element. Most usage is indeed to London Terminals but that's not the only option.

I have seen this stated by knowledgable people a few times, but when I looked today the "How to use the National Routeing Guide" document says the opposite:

A NOTE ABOUT ROUTEING WITH OUTBOUNDARY TRAVELCARDS
(TRAVELCARDS VALID FROM STATIONS OUTSIDE THE LONDON ZONAL FARE AREA TO ZONES WITHIN IT)
The route you take between your origin station and the point at which you first cross into the
London zonal area (Zones 1-9) should be the route valid for a journey to ‘London Terminals’,
regardless of the zone(s) to which the ticket is actually valid or the combination of London
Travelcards being used. This does not affect validity within the London zonal area, where you are
permitted to use any eligible National Rail service within the zone(s) for which your Travelcard is
valid.’

Obviously, it would be unwise to assume that just because one official source states something there won't exist another official source stating the opposite, allowing us as consumers to choose the less restrictive statement. But does an alternative official statement exist?

I can see a Freedom Of Information Act request was put to the Department of Transport regarding the 2019 addition of this statement, which received the response "It is our understanding that the wording change explains how a particular ticket type can be used and that this has not resulted in changes to any of the permitted routes listed within the National Routeing Guide." The request also states

According to a user on the RailUK forums, ATOC confirmed in this a July 2012 e-mail, saying outboundary Travelcards were "valid to the first crossing of the outer boundary of Zone 6, using any permitted route (observing any fare related restriction) to any station within zones 1-6 that the associated Travelcard/Freedom pass is valid to."

which is really a (not officially published) statement about Boundary Zone tickets rather than outboundary Travelcards, but would perhaps be OK to rely on back when no official publication existed stating the contrary.

However it wouldn't be hard to add to the restriction code "On Transport for London services within Zones 1-6, except where National Rail tickets are dual-accepted and on a Permitted Route into the Travelcard area, travel is not permitted until after 0930". I'd be surprised not to see that chucked in there fairly soon.

This seems to allow use of the Travelcard element as long as it's not on TfL, which I don't think the intention would be for someone set out to "fix the loophole". They'd probably want to find a way to define what sort of travel forms part of "the inbound journey", and what forms part of the "Travelcard usage", and bar the latter before 09:30 while still allowing your inbound journey to enter the zones before 09:30. Any permitted route to London Terminals is clearly reasonable inbound travel, which is why I suggested what I did, but if you wanted to allow an extended set of reasonable routes then it would be a bit trickier to define which destinations in the zones are "inbound to London" and allowed to be reached before 09:30, and which have "gone through to the other side" and are barred until after 09:30...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have a play with the planners and the above text is definitely NOT what is implemented - it is what I said above.

That's why LNR Travelcards (but not point to point tickets) have route Watford Junction. Otherwise they would be (and were) valid via Bedford, undercutting that fare, by choosing a destination like one of the Thameslink stations in the Zones.

There are probably relatively few locations where this is an issue given the radial nature of the South East rail network.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, surely the long-term fix should be to make all official sources define outboundary Off-Peak Day Travelcards as being valid for a (possibly broken) return journey from the origin to London Terminals according to the restriction code, plus unlimited travel according to the standard Travelcard conditions between 09:30 and 28:29, since that's likely what's being enforced by barriers, gateline staff, bus drivers and inspectors anyway? Tough luck to anyone with a "legitimate" Off-Peak train arriving before 09:30! Seems easier than tinkering with restriction codes (whether it is to ensure no trains between 00:00 and 09omething are valid on the outbound, or adding an exclusionary note), but maybe involves more bureaucracy

No. The current situation is fine; as @Bletchleyite says a route restriction can be added if necessary.

 

[CyrusWuff]

In the vast majority of cases, the lack of an explicit mention of (Super) Off-Peak Travelcards not being valid on TfL services before 0930 Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays) is irrelevant, as the "out-boundary" leg generally won't be valid for arrivals into London prior to 1000 (or occasionally later).

One possibility would be to add wording similar to that used when restrictions are lifted between Christmas and New Year.

Something along the lines of "Whilst (Super) Off-Peak tickets are valid at any time on Fridays, (Super) Off-Peak Travelcards are not valid on journeys within the Travelcard Area before 0930.

As such, it may be cheaper to just buy a ticket to London and use Oyster/Contactless for onward travel."

 

[Starmill]

Of course, the net result of all this will most likely be the reimposition of time restrictions on these tickets on Fridays.

Given it's a fairly common issue across a number of Travelcards, I'm not so sure. For example Coulsdon South Off Peak Day Travelcards have had a more generous time restriction than most for many years, in line with the custom and practice on that line. There are a number of other examples.

 

[paul1609]

Avanti removed it, but they did so by changing the restriction codes on their priced fares, so that change also applies to other TOCs involved.

Indeed if you're travelling in to St Pancras or to most of the U1 stations from HS1 at anytime times the ticket you now need is an off peak return to Rugby throwing away the North of London Section. An added bonus for holders of Senior Railcards as the ticket gets round the wholly in the Southeast restriction.

 

[miklcct]

Indeed if you're travelling in to St Pancras or to most of the U1 stations from HS1 at anytime times the ticket you now need is an off peak return to Rugby throwing away the North of London Section. An added bonus for holders of Senior Railcards as the ticket gets round the wholly in the Southeast restriction.

How is the ticket valid to most of the U1 station after taking the HS1 to St Pancras?