Off Peak Day Reurn Increases by 40%

[Gareth Marston]

Newtown to Telford Off Peak Day Return has just gone up from £15.30 to £21.40 which is close on 40%. Anybody seen any bigger increases?

The Anytime Day Return is £23.30 up from £22.90.

 

[northwichcat]

Split at Shewsbury and you save £6, plus the Shrewsbury to Telford off-peak ticket is valid from 08:15 and has no evening peak restriction.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Split at Shewsbury and you save £6, plus the Shrewsbury to Telford off-peak ticket is valid from 08:15 and has no evening peak restriction.

Most do that anyway esp those with Cambrian Railcards who save even more however Welshpool and Caersws have had similar increases and the TVM's there don't tell people about the easy split nor does Trainline et al.

Telford is the only destination on the BHM INTL to Aberystwyth route that has an Off Peak Day Return from Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws anyway. Everywhere else is Anytime Day Return only.

From Newtown

Welshpool £5.60
Shrewsbury £8.40
Wellington (Salop) £13.30
Telford £21.40 CDR or £23.30 Anytime
Wolverhampton £19.60
Smethwick Galton Bridge £20.00
Birmingham Stations £20.00
Birmingham International £26.40

Caersws £4.20
Machynlleth £10.00
Dovey Junction £12.90
Borth £13.60
Aberystwyth £14.70

Telford is anomalous with the rest of the route - anybody have any theories why?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Newtown to Telford Off Peak Day Return has just gone up from £15.30 to £21.40 which is close on 40%. Anybody seen any bigger increases?
The Anytime Day Return is £23.30 up from £22.90.

The Chester-Birmingham Off Peak Day Return (CDR) has vanished, so the cheapest off-peak fares is now a £33.90 SSR rather than a £22 CDR, or about a 50% rise.
The previous changes first removed the CDR validity via Stafford, then imposed the afternoon time restrictions via Shrewsbury; now it's gone completely.
There are now 3 Off Peak Returns with different route/time restrictions, with fares from £33.90 to £42.70.
But no cheaper Virgin-only fares, unlike Manchester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The Chester-Birmingham Off Peak Day Return (CDR) has vanished, so the cheapest off-peak fares is now a £33.90 SSR rather than a £22 CDR, or about a 50% rise.
The previous changes first removed the CDR validity via Stafford, then imposed the afternoon time restrictions via Shrewsbury; now it's gone completely.
There are now 3 Off Peak Returns with different route/time restrictions, with fares from £33.90 to £42.70.
But no cheaper Virgin-only fares, unlike Manchester.

Theirs a split at Shrewsbury that will get it down to £26.70 but nothing via Stafford I can see that will help.

 

[kuepper]

I did my first rail journey of the year yesterday and was disgusted there was a 22% rise in my day return to Manchester. How come the media and politicians haven't exploded with rage about these sort of figures? At the beginning of the month only a 2% rise was mentioned but that's obviously for a very narrow band of fares.

 

[northwichcat]

I did my first rail journey of the year yesterday and was disgusted there was a 22% rise in my day return to Manchester. How come the media and politicians haven't exploded with rage about these sort of figures? At the beginning of the month only a 2% rise was mentioned but that's obviously for a very narrow band of fares.

What was the ticket? Regulated fares increased by an average of 2% - in reality fares increase in multiples of 10p for adult fares so if there was a £1 adult ticket it would either be frozen or increase by 10%. However, not all fares are regulated. Off-Peak returns within Greater Manchester were very heavily subsided and they are not regulated so under the new franchise agreement they are being increased to be on a par with Off-Peak returns outside of Greater Manchester.

 

[lejog]

I did my first rail journey of the year yesterday and was disgusted there was a 22% rise in my day return to Manchester. How come the media and politicians haven't exploded with rage about these sort of figures? At the beginning of the month only a 2% rise was mentioned but that's obviously for a very narrow band of fares.

Possibly because both local and government cross-party politicians (in the shape of Rail North) have a long term policy of harmonising rail fares across the North, which will lead to the elimination of cheaper rail fares in PTE areas.

Just be grateful that you've had subsidised fares for many years now. Any subsidy will be equally applied across the whole franchise in the future.

 

[miami]

I did my first rail journey of the year yesterday and was disgusted there was a 22% rise in my day return to Manchester. How come the media and politicians haven't exploded with rage about these sort of figures? At the beginning of the month only a 2% rise was mentioned but that's obviously for a very narrow band of fares.

It's more likely that 22% increase is on a very narrow band of fares. What is your route?

 

[All Line Rover]

Arriva Trains Wales (DM alert: owned by The Germans!!) has gone on a massive spree of withdrawing fairly priced Off-Peak Day Returns and dramatically increasing the price of those that remain. Not only are passengers being charged more, but various anomalies have been created (many deliberately). Some have already been highlighted in this thread. One particular example I would highlight is that, although the Off-Peak Day Return has gone between Chester and Birmingham, Arriva Trains Wales has deliberately retained the Super Off-Peak Return "via Shrewsbury" fare (which it prices and has set at £33.90) even though the regulated Off-Peak Return "Any Permitted" fare (priced by London Midland) costs £34.70.

Why offer a highly restrictive fare when the "saving" is a mere 2% (80p)? Why, when the DfT is talking of trying to simplify rail fares, is Arriva Trains Wales deliberately retaining confusion in the fares structure?

EDIT: More to the point, why is Arriva Trains Wales selling a 1st class "via Shrewsbury" return fare at £100 (for a route on which - for all practical purposes - no services operate with first class accommodation), when the "Any Permitted" 1st class return fare (priced by London Midland) is £87?

 

[kuepper]

What was the ticket? Regulated fares increased by an average of 2% - in reality fares increase in multiples of 10p for adult fares so if there was a £1 adult ticket it would either be frozen or increase by 10%. However, not all fares are regulated. Off-Peak returns within Greater Manchester were very heavily subsided and they are not regulated so under the new franchise agreement they are being increased to be on a par with Off-Peak returns outside of Greater Manchester.

from Glossop which though on the Greater Manchester rail network isn't actually in Greater Manchester it's in Derbyshire so no subsidy contrary to what some here have assumed so nothing to have been grateful for. As a 68yo if I lived in Greater Manchester all my trains trams and buses would be free between 9.30am and 11pm

 

[northwichcat]

from Glossop which though on the Greater Manchester rail network isn't actually in Greater Manchester it's in Derbyshire so no subsidy contrary to what some here have assumed. As a 68yo if I lived in Greater Manchester all my trains trams and buses would be free between 9.30am and 11pm

Actually rail transport for Glossop is the responsibility of TfGM despite being in Derbyshire so gets the benefit of TfGM subsided fares. On other routes the benefits stop at the TfGM border so Glossop is very lucky.

Even now Glossop to Hale Off-Peak Day Return is the £5.40 which GM Off-Peak Returns are capped at, while Todmorden to Hale is £14.60 for an Off-Peak Day Return showing which shows how heavily subsided some of the TfGM set fares are.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Arriva Trains Wales (DM alert: owned by The Germans!!) has gone on a massive spree of withdrawing fairly priced Off-Peak Day Returns and dramatically increasing the price of those that remain. Not only are passengers being charged more, but various anomalies have been created (many deliberately). Some have already been highlighted in this thread. One particular example I would highlight is that, although the Off-Peak Day Return has gone between Chester and Birmingham, Arriva Trains Wales has deliberately retained the Super Off-Peak Return "via Shrewsbury" fare (which it prices and has set at £33.90) even though the regulated Off-Peak Return "Any Permitted" fare (priced by London Midland) costs £34.70.

Why offer a highlight restrictive fare when the "saving" is a mere 2% (80p)? Why, when the DfT is talking of trying to simplify rail fares, is Arriva Trains Wales deliberately retaining confusion in the fares structure?


EDIT: More to the point, why is Arriva Trains Wales selling a 1st class "via Shrewsbury" return fare at £100 (for a route on which - for all practical purposes - no services operate with first class accommodation), when the "Any Permitted" 1st class return fare (priced by London Midland) is £87?

Bottom line is despite Cross Contrys grossly overcrowded Voyagers, lack of Ap allocation and draconian definition of peak fares they can't make the premium payment to DfT that the Arriva bid team signed up to in 2007. The Arriva group use ATW's super profit margin of 6% to.cross subsidise. DB bought a pup that doesn't send the loot back to Berlin that they thought would happen. ATW is the cash cow and they keep trying to squeeze it.

 

[roversfan2001]

Even now Glossop to Hale Off-Peak Day Return is the £5.40 which GM Off-Peak Returns are capped at

I would have thought that 'cap' would now be £5.90 now the Rail Ranger has gone up (unless I'm missing something, I presumed the price of that would be the cap)?

 

[miami]

One particular example I would highlight is that, although the Off-Peak Day Return has gone between Chester and Birmingham, Arriva Trains Wales has deliberately retained the Super Off-Peak Return "via Shrewsbury" fare (which it prices and has set at £33.90) even though the regulated Off-Peak Return "Any Permitted" fare (priced by London Midland) costs £34.70.

Slightly diverting from the topic. If you boarded a train and the super-off-peak wasn't valid (say travelling via Crewe, as via time restrictions are the same), would the correct charge on the train by the guard be 40p?

If you boarded a train before 0900 via Shrewsbury you'd need the £42.70 ticket, before 0900 via Crewe the £56.00 ticket, meaning £4.40 and £11.10 excesses respectively?

Is that the correct way for it to be applied?

 

[Starmill]

Even now Glossop to Hale Off-Peak Day Return is the £5.40 which GM Off-Peak Returns are capped at, while Todmorden to Hale is £14.60 for an Off-Peak Day Return showing which shows how heavily subsided some of the TfGM set fares are.

Except, not anymore...

It's more likely that 22% increase is on a very narrow band of fares. What is your route?

I wouldn't call all fares in an area where almost 3 million people live a 'narrow band'. Indeed the fares have increased by £1 in 3 months so that's as much as 35%.

I would have thought that 'cap' would now be £5.90 now the Rail Ranger has gone up (unless I'm missing something, I presumed the price of that would be the cap)?

The largest CDR fare is £5.40. It's not a 'cap' as that implies you can change it as you go along along by PAYG or some other means. The Ranger you must choose to buy in advance, and you can't change to it as your journey requirements become more known, as you could with PAYG, and it has always cost more than any return would.

Just one of the reasons why local rail travel in Manchester is grossly overpriced compared to, say, London.

 

[northwichcat]

Except, not anymore...

Incorrect. GM fares aren't as heavily subsided as they were but they still are heavily subsided - just look at the comparison I posted above a TfGM set Off-Peak Return can still be more than 60% less than an equivalent one set by Northern.

I wouldn't call all fares in an area where almost 3 million people live a 'narrow band'. Indeed the fares have increased by £1 in 3 months so that's as much as 35%.

Not everyone in GM regularly buys off-peak train tickets to other places in GM. For a start over 60s travel free.

The largest CDR fare is £5.40. It's not a 'cap' as that implies you can change it as you go along along by PAYG or some other means.

It's still a cap even if not in the TfL sense. You have to state your destination before boarding (unless boarding at a station without ticket selling facilities) while in Greater London if using contactless you tap in and can change your mind on where you travel to after you tap in.

 

[LeylandLen]

I know its off topic, but relevant... I see to my cost a big rise in car park charges by Virgin Trains (WC) What was £6 last year at Stoke-on-Trent cost me now £12 !!!

I had booked an advance return Stoke-Euston online with Virgin returning on 2300 to Man Picc so I knew what the train fare was ; never thought to check car park charges !

 

[Starmill]

Incorrect. GM fares aren't as heavily subsided as they were but they still are heavily subsided - just look at the comparison I posted above a TfGM set Off-Peak Return can still be more than 60% less than an equivalent one set by Northern.

Cheaper and subsidised are not the same thing - as well you know. There were still increases in Anytime Day Single tickets - some Off-Peak Day single tickets were also deleted. And without a TfGM rail grant in 17/18 there will presumably need to be further increases? Unless that's not correct? Is there a Greater Manchester specific source of subsidy other than the rail grant?

Not everyone in GM regularly buys off-peak train tickets to other places in GM. For a start over 60s travel free.

Principally because most of them don't travel by train. What's your point?

It's still a cap even if not in the TfL sense. You have to state your destination before boarding (unless boarding at a station without ticket selling facilities) while in Greater London if using contactless you tap in and can change your mind on where you travel to after you tap in.

Dancing on the semantic sixpence now. The fares are more expensive and less useful than their equivalents in London. The greatest return fare between any two stations in the area is £5.40 but that does not have a particularly relevance to anyone unless they (for example) live in Bramhall and want to travel to Bryn, in which case they should be grateful they aren't going to Garswood.

 

[northwichcat]

Cheaper and subsidised are not the same thing - as well you know. There were still increases in Anytime Day Single tickets - some Off-Peak Day single tickets were also deleted. And without a TfGM rail grant in 17/18 there will presumably need to be further increases? Unless that's not correct? Is there a Greater Manchester specific source of subsidy other than the rail grant?

You were arguing rail fares in Greater Manchester aren't still heavily subsided. Fares in PTE areas still get subsided by both the PTE and DfT, while ones outside only get subsided by DfT. However, you seem to be changing your argument to now be 'they won't be heavily subsided for much longer.'

Principally because most of them don't travel by train. What's your point?

You said the fare rises affect 3 million people, which is Daily Mail style reporting as they only affect people who use the train for journeys fully within GM and don't get free travel, so if you don't know how many of them are over 60 the statistic you came up with is irrelevant in the context you were using it.

Dancing on the semantic sixpence now. The fares are more expensive and less useful than their equivalents in London. The greatest return fare between any two stations in the area is £5.40 but that does not have a particularly relevance to anyone unless they (for example) live in Bramhall and want to travel to Bryn, in which case they should be grateful they aren't going to Garswood.

You were arguing £5.40 isn't a cap. If the TfL system didn't exist or they didn't use the word 'cap' in their terminology you won't be able to even logically argue GM off-peak return fares aren't capped, even with the TfL system existing your argument is very dubious.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Just to clarify that "Over 60s" ENCTS passes are now issued in line with the female pension age, which will soon be 66.

 

[Starmill]

You were arguing rail fares in Greater Manchester aren't still heavily subsided. Fares in PTE areas still get subsided by both the PTE and DfT, while ones outside only get subsided by DfT. However, you seem to be changing your argument to now be 'they won't be heavily subsided for much longer.'

Can you point to a national rail subsidy specific to Manchester after this April? I thought there was no direct rail grant for 16/17 but looking it up seems there is, presumably bridging funding? That's the specific point you are talking about. If you can, then great. But I'd love to know why the huge fare rise was so neccesary in such a short period of time? I note Knutsford to Manchester fares barely increased at all by comparison.

You said the fare rises affect 3 million people, which is Daily Mail style reporting as they only affect people who use the train for journeys fully within GM and don't get free travel, so if you don't know how many of them are over 60 the statistic you came up with is irrelevant in the context you were using it.

It doesn't affect all 3 million people directly, but the vast majority of them are still prospective rail users who aren't using the service. Children and people entitled to Concession Plus passes would also be affected differently. I was arguing against the point that the increase is of a small magnitude only. It does make rail travel less affordable in one of Britain's biggest cities. Why are you convinced that that is not so important, but the high cost of Knutsford to Northwich is?

You were arguing £5.40 isn't a cap. If the TfL system didn't exist or they didn't use the word 'cap' in their terminology you won't be able to even logically argue GM off-peak return fares aren't capped, even with the TfL system existing your argument is very dubious.

I wouldn't call it a cap because if you want to travel all day it still costs more than that unlike with a PAYG cap, which was proposed for Greater Manchester. If that had happened, £5.90 would have been the 'cap', no? £5.40 is the highest CDR fare, that isn't a massively relevant statistic to actual travellers, but if you'd like to call it a 'CDR cap' then that's fair enough.

 

[northwichcat]

Can you point to a national rail subsidy specific to Manchester after this April? I thought there was no direct rail grant for 16/17 but looking it up seems there is, presumably bridging funding? That's the specific point you are talking about. If you can, then great. But I'd love to know why the huge fare rise was so neccesary in such a short period of time? I note Knutsford to Manchester fares barely increased at all by comparison.

The point you seem to be missing is TfGM set fares were exceptionally cheap at the start of the franchise and there's a franchise requirement for them to be brought in to line with non-PTE fares over the next few years. Greater Manchester passengers will pay more but on average they'll eventually be paying the same as Lancashire and Cheshire passengers. Bridging the gap isn't just about increasing PTE set fares as a few of the most expensive non-PTE fares have decreased.

Knutsford to Manchester increased by the average for non-PTE fares. A few years ago it increased by a lot more the average for non-PTE fares as Northern reduced the less popular Knutsford to Chester fare in favour of increasing the more popular Knutsford to Manchester fare - something new Northern aren't allowed to do.

It does make rail travel less affordable in one of Britain's biggest cities. Why are you convinced that that is not so important, but the high cost of Knutsford to Northwich is?

I didn't mention Knutsford to Northwich. That's actually one of the non-PTE fares Northern have reduced to bring in to line with other fares. It was £5.80 for an Off-Peak Return but was reduced to £5.50 in September 2016. Incidentally the fare on the 289 bus between Knutsford and Northwich changed from £5 return to £5.50 return in the summer of 2016 when the operator changed. The train has the disadvantage of the station being poorly located for the town but has the advantage of being hourly while the bus is a few journeys per day.

I wouldn't call it a cap because if you want to travel all day it still costs more than that unlike with a PAYG cap, which was proposed for Greater Manchester. If that had happened, £5.90 would have been the 'cap', no? £5.40 is the highest CDR fare, that isn't a massively relevant statistic to actual travellers, but if you'd like to call it a 'CDR cap' then that's fair enough.

Off-Peak Return fares from Horwich Parkway:
Lostock (GM) £2.40
Bolton (GM) £4.30
Salford (GM) £5.40
Manchester (GM) £5.40
Stockport (GM) £5.40
Hazel Grove (GM) £5.40
New Mills Newton (Derbyshire) £14.20

So 8.5 miles in GM costs the same as almost 20 miles in GM but go a further 5 miles and cross the border in to Derbyshire and you pay more than double.

Call it what you want but there's a maximum CDR fare when you travel between two points in GM which makes it very cheap to go from one side of Manchester to the other.

 

[lejog]

One thing I find faintly amusing about the above inflation increases in PTE off peak day return fares, is that in West Yorkshire the maximum such fare (£7.30) has now risen above the price of the Day Rover (£7.20).

 

[najaB]

I wouldn't call it a cap because if you want to travel all day it still costs more than that unlike with a PAYG cap, which was proposed for Greater Manchester.

There is a fare cap, but not a daily cap. It's no different to call plans that cap your call charges at 'no more than 30p for the first 60 minutes' or similar. If you make one 60 minute call you'll pay 30p, make 10 six minute calls and you could pay £2.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing I find faintly amusing about the above inflation increases in PTE off peak day return fares, is that in West Yorkshire the maximum such fare (£7.30) has now risen above the price of the Day Rover (£7.20).

With the TfGM Wayfarer covering parts of Cheshire, Derbyshire, Staffordshire and Lancashire there are also off-peak day return fares which exceed the cost of the TfGM Wayfarer despite the Wayfarer being valid for the journey.

 

[Starmill]

Call it what you want but there's a maximum CDR fare...

That is what I called it, because that's what it is, and that's where the significance of it ends. The rest of your post is old news that you already know all of my views on. Services within Greater Manchester were better used and usually more frequent than those in Lancashire and Cheshire. Rail has very very low market shares in Cheshire and Lancashire and a majority of fares cost more for a lone traveller than driving a modern car. Even the cheapest Knutsford to Chester fare that you say has decreased is £10.70 return - it would cost on average between £10-11 in fuel for that 60 mile round trip - so why would you take the slower, much much less comfortable train if you had the choice?

Rail is too expensive and deeply uncompetitive in most of these areas. Greater Manchester was an exception, but isn't going to be much longer. I said that when this policy was announced though and you are already aware of my views on competitiveness of trains against nonsense like the Oxford Road bus corridor and people driving their cars into Manchester city centre.

Most of the decreases in fares took place on routes with very few trains and passengers (Cumbrian Coast, Durham Coast, S&C etc) with perhaps the noble exception of Morpeth and Alnmouth to Newcastle, where the fare went down but most of it goes to other operators.

 

[All Line Rover]

Even the cheapest Knutsford to Chester fare that you say has decreased is £10.70 return - it would cost on average between £10-11 in fuel for that 60 mile round trip - so why would you take the slower, much much less comfortable train if you had the choice?

Because Chester is both difficult and expensive to park in and the roads are atrocious whenever the races are on (inter alia)?

That's not to say Knutsford has a "good" rail service, but I can see why other routes to Chester with more modern rolling stock, such as Crewe, are very popular despite the fares being, in my opinion, slightly overpriced.

 

[miami]

Crewe to Chester is a right pain by car -- the A51 can be very slow, and the train is fast and relatively frequent.

 

[All Line Rover]

Crewe to Chester is a right pain by car -- the A51 can be very slow, and the train is fast and relatively frequent.

Indeed. During rush hour you're looking at between 1h and 1h 30m (realistically 1h 20m), while the train takes 0h 22m. There aren't many journeys by train that are so much faster than the alternative by road.

Even at night, getting stuck behind a lorry when travelling by road can be a pain, most HGVs, rather understandably, not being willing to travel via the M6/M56 junction.