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Off peak and stressed out error

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Yorkshire7

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11 May 2016
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Thanks folks for your help. I rang the number today and spoke to a very lovely lady who assurred me it was ok as long as I was co operative. She said she cannot guarantee the output but I will be required to pay the difference and possibly explain the address situation. But she appreciated me informing them that I will be moving house again and I made the effort to enquire. I am going to leave it now till the letter comes! But I will reply almost immediately and settle the matter!
 
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gray1404

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3 Mar 2014
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Thanks folks for your help. I rang the number today and spoke to a very lovely lady who assurred me it was ok as long as I was co operative. She said she cannot guarantee the output but I will be required to pay the difference and possibly explain the address situation. But she appreciated me informing them that I will be moving house again and I made the effort to enquire. I am going to leave it now till the letter comes! But I will reply almost immediately and settle the matter!

I am of the view that you didn't do anything wrong. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage make express provisions for a situation such as this. To put it another way, the contract into with both you and Northern willingly entered into when I paid for your Off Peak ticket expressly states that if you wished to travel at a time of day during which the ticket was not valid, you only have to pay the difference in fare. You should not have been asked for your name and address and should certainly not have to be following this up now - using up your time and expense - to pay an excess fare that should either have been collected at the time or not at all.
 

dquebec

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20 Dec 2015
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Sheffield
I think the general lack of accurate legal information is a problem on this forum, so I will attempt to clear up some misconceptions.

1) The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are contractual - and, for the most part, issues concerning them would be a civil matter.

2) The Railway Byelaws, are criminal legislation - and can override civil contractual terms.

3) The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is primary criminal legislation and overrides Byelaws and civil contractual terms.

The facts are simple in this case:

I accidentally gave him my last address and not my current one, I have lived in a different place every year whilst being at Univeristy and I am still not settled in one long term place.

Accidentally or otherwise, he provided a false address.

I believe that he has committed a criminal offence under Section 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889:

1) He had failed to pay his fare (he had paid a fare, but not the correct one);
2) Having failed to pay his fare, he provided a false address.

There is then sufficient evidence to support conviction under this Act.

Taking it to extremes, if the National Rail Conditions of Carriage said you could assault another passenger if you purchased a specific pass - it would still be illegal under criminal law, regardless of what the contract says.
 
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CheesyChips

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18 Jun 2015
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Unless there's a subtlety to this event that the forum isn't privy to, I believe you may cause yourself more trouble by just allowing Northern to extort what they want from you. You MUST remember that the burden of proof lies with Northern and they only have teeth if you've commited an offence/broken the rules etc.

Northern don't get to play fast and loose with the NRCoC and legislation just because they're a large company and send formal letters. If you aren't liable then you have every right to stand your ground. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the nice staff you speak to on the phone are your friend, you're just another case number to them. They don't care if you're dragged through initimidating procedures backwards.

Like when the police "just want to talk so you can be on your way" ;)
 

DaveNewcastle

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I think the general lack of accurate legal information is a problem on this forum, . . .
There certainly is. And there is a lot of unhelpful opinion.
. . . so I will attempt to clear up some misconceptions.
. . . .

2) The Railway Byelaws, are criminal legislation - and can override civil contractual terms.

3) The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is primary criminal legislation and overrides Byelaws and civil contractual terms.
There is no concept of 'overriding' operating in the prosecution of offences. A person may be pursued under primary legislation, secondary legislation, common law offence, tort, and a civil claim, with none of them necessarily voiding another.

The facts are simple in this case:

Accidentally or otherwise, he provided a false address.

I believe that he has committed a criminal offence under Section 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889:
. . . .

There is then sufficient evidence to support conviction under this Act.
I agree.

Taking it to extremes, if the National Rail Conditions of Carriage said you could assault another passenger . . . . .
Please just stop there before you make a mockery of your well intentioned attempts to provide 'clarity'. You were doing just fine without your 'extreme' example.
 

LAX54

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15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,906
Did the OP say he had an out of date Railcard ? and when he heard the shouts for tickets and railcards, he said he got both ready to show, could this be part of the reason ?
 

crehld

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1 Nov 2014
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1,994
Location
Norfolk
I agree that we are getting confused between facts and opinion. Let's remind ourselves of the facts, which are known to be as follows:

1. The OP purchased an off-peak ticket at Manchester Piccadilly for travel between Manchester Piccadilly and Levenshulme.

2. This ticket was purchased from a machine immediately prior to travel.

3. The ticket had a railcard discount applied and the OP had the appropriate corresponding railcard with them. The railcard was in date and valid.

4. Having purchased their ticket for immediate travel, the OP immediately undertook their journey between Manchester Piccadilly and Levenshulme, taking the next available train.

5. Although the OP purchased their off-peak ticket for immediate travel, their ticket was in fact not valid as off-peak restrictions had just come into force. The valid ticket for the would have been an anytime one.

6. The OP was stopped by an inspector at Levenshulme and made aware that they should have held an anytime ticket rather than an off-peak one. Rather than following the terms / procedures laid out in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage the inspector opted to take the OP's details, rather than selling the appropriate excess fare.

7. During the conversation with the inspector, the OP inadvertently gave an out of date address. The OP immediately realized this and immediately corrected the error with the inspector (within 60 seconds by the OP's account).

As for the speculation that as the OP used an off-peak ticket at a time when they should have used an anytime ticket then the OP has committed an offence under section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act: such an allegation can only be made should there be evidence of the OP's intent to avoid the appropriate anytime fare. Such evidence would, of course, be based on the OP's actions rather than their thoughts. In terms of their actions, the OP purchased their ticket just before they travelled, and indeed having purchased the ticket took the next available train. It seems entirely reasonable that if one asks for a ticket for immediate travel on the next available train (whether sold by a human being or a ticket machine) that they are sold the appropriate ticket for that immediate travel. Given this, I, at least, remain rather unclear how the OP's actions here demonstrate intent to avoid the appropriate fare. The OP may not have paid the appropriate fare, but their actions as reported certainly don't demonstrate intent to avoid it.

Some might also speculate that the OP intentionally avoided an opportunity to correct the wrong fare once they were alerted to the fact it was wrong. Again intent is determined by actions. For any intent to be proven the train company would have to prove the OP neglected the opportunity to correct the situation by purchasing the correct fare. The opportunity for this would have been the sale of an excess fare by the inspector at Levenshulme, an opportunity which was not offered.

There is also some speculation as the OP initially gave an out of date address before immediately correcting that mistake they are liable for prosecution under section 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act. Perhaps. But I remain unclear how successful such a prosecution will be given the OP immediately identified the error and immediately corrected it with the inspector. Indeed, the OP's actions of immediately realizing and actively correcting their error (within the space of 60 seconds) seems, to me at least, to be evidence of intent to ensure the correct address was given, rather than an inadvertently false one.

To the OP: these threads quickly move from constructive advice to speculation as posters debate the finer (or maybe not so fine) points of railway legislation and its moral foundation. You should concern yourself only with resolving the matter. Unfortunately there's really not much you can do until Northern receive the inspector's report and they invite you to respond. When that time comes we will be more than happy to assist writing a reply.

In the meantime please do not panic and stress out. The facts of your case are quite clear so hopefully there should be no trouble with the appropriate resolution (which in this case should be payment of the excess fare between the off-peak and anytime fares - nothing more nothing less) being identified.

In the meantime it might be best to hold off any further discussion until the OP receives notification from Northern and needs to seek constructive advice in putting together a response.
 
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