Off lease HST's.

[fgwrich]

Friday's move was cancelled, but is running today on this;

Realtime Trains - 590P 0736 Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Formation is; 42510 / 41102 / 41030 / 46003 / 42332 / 42348. Of note is the first TC heading for the bin, converted a mere 5 years ago.

 

[MotCO]

Are the HSTs time-expired, or would another country be interested in them? (The previous comments about Newport Docks got me wondering.)

 

[Domh245]

No other country would realistically want them. The only reason they're heading to Newport Docks is for the scrapyard there, not export!

 

[Energy]

HSTs consume quite a lot of fuel, doubt anyone would want them over a modern MU and Australia are replacing their similar XPTs so they wouldn't want more HSTs.

 

[fgwrich]

Second move of the day today. GBRF's 66764 took 6393 / 42507 / 41128 / 42060 / 42573 / 42197 / 42515 / 6394 on 5Z43 Ely Papworth to Eastleigh Works.

008_66764_5Z43_Ely-Eastly_NBA.4.5.20

66764 including barrier wagons 6393 42507 41128 42060 42573 42197 42515 6394, on a 5Z43 Ely Papworth to Eastleigh Works transfer past New Barnet.

www.flickr.com

 

[59CosG95]

Another move from Ely today; 20311/20314 + 6340 / 42056 / 41056 / 46015 / 46002 / 42196 / 41110 / 6344 are currently working as 5Q76 to Newport Docks. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K88721/2020-05-06/detailed

 

[Phil Scott]

Apparently some former FGW coaches have been moved today from Long Marston to Crewe by LSL. Does anyone know their identities please? Thanks

 

[fgwrich]

Apparently some former FGW coaches have been moved today from Long Marston to Crewe by LSL. Does anyone know their identities please? Thanks

A rather odd one this, consisting of 2 x 408 TRFB, 2 x TC, 1 TS and 1 TGS. The vehicles I can make out from the videos are TS 42319 / TC 46014 & 46006 / TRFB 40802 & 40804. I can't make the TGS out I'm afraid. All formerly Porterbrook owned.

 

[43096]

Another move from Ely today; 20311/20314 + 6340 / 42056 / 41056 / 46015 / 46002 / 42196 / 41110 / 6344 are currently working as 5Q76 to Newport Docks. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K88721/2020-05-06/detailed

Health warning on that consist: at least 42056 is wrongly identified.

 

[DBS92042]

Apparently some former FGW coaches have been moved today from Long Marston to Crewe by LSL. Does anyone know their identities please? Thanks

A rather odd one this, consisting of 2 x 408 TRFB, 2 x TC, 1 TS and 1 TGS. The vehicles I can make out from the videos are TS 42319 / TC 46014 & 46006 / TRFB 40802 & 40804. I can't make the TGS out I'm afraid. All formerly Porterbrook owned.

I found another video of the working on Youtube and make the numbers to be: 40804, 46014, 42319, 44081, 40802, 46006

 

[Spirit555]

Health warning on that consist: at least 42056 is wrongly identified.

42056 is incorrect. It was 42061

HTH

Mark

 

[4REP]

To begin with we need to start a thread on all mk3 Withdrawals as that would be useful. According to Wikipedia 848 mark 3 vehicles were built. We need accuracy and information from the earliest platform 5 book when they were all in service. (around before the Polmont crash of 1984) then a complete run down of the vehicles scrapped in recent times. More than 848 could have possibly been built as one time I did a calculation but gave up.

 

[4REP]

Would it be possible to create a new thread for HST coach withdrawals, similar to the excellent list regarding Pacer withdrawals? That would be a great help for me and no doubt many others who are tracking the HST withdrawals.

See post 312. forgot to press reply

 

[43 302]

To begin with we need to start a thread on all mk3 Withdrawals as that would be useful. According to Wikipedia 848 mark 3 vehicles were built. We need accuracy and information from the earliest platform 5 book when they were all in service. (around before the Polmont crash of 1984) then a complete run down of the vehicles scrapped in recent times. More than 848 could have possibly been built as one time I did a calculation but gave up.

A thread like that would be great; it would, however, be quite the task to complete.

 

[Phil Scott]

I have started a thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-coach-disposals.204132/

I can add LHCS Mk 3 stock if necessary, but it might end up a very large table.

 

[4REP]

I have started a thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hst-coach-disposals.204132/

I can add LHCS Mk 3 stock if necessary, but it might end up a very large table.

Yes I think all mark 3 vehicles should be included but not its derivatives eg emu/dmu.
I did a calculation earlier but an estimate and got to around 800 vehicles.
We need to include the 10 prototypes.
LNER coaches.
GWR coaches.
Anglia coaches.
Sleeper coaches
Midland coaches
Xc coaches.
Spares.
Scotrail?
If somebody has a full service fleet list which would from the 80s platform 5.
I would say a 1983/85. No accidents before Polmont or withdrawals-1984.

 

[4REP]

A thread like that would be great; it would, however, be quite the task to complete.

Quite agreed but can be achieved with investigation and the right information.
I did a rough calculation again earlier and came to around 802 coaches but did not include spares or pullmans and redundant sleepers. So 848 is probably the correct figure. Someone must have all the coaching stock plat 5 books somewhere from 1983 to 2020 to get the answers and check or calculate each year the mark 3 declines.
I would say the figures were stable from 1985 to 1997 as the latter year the Southall crash happened and some were scrapped.
Not sure on the Colwich crash though of 1985

 

[4REP]

I calculate..
LNER 135 coaches(15 sets of 9)
GWR 464 coaches(which were 58 sets of 8 coaches) not sure if some were 7.
Midland 73 coaches (9 sets of 8)
XC 35 coaches (5 sets of 7)
West coast/Anglia 120 coaches (15 sets of 8)
Night reviera 16 coaches(2 sets of 8)
Network rail?
Redundant sleepers?
Accidental damage?
Chiltern?
TFW?
I have not included any spares

 

[43096]

Yes I think all mark 3 vehicles should be included but not its derivatives eg emu/dmu.
I did a calculation earlier but an estimate and got to around 800 vehicles.
We need to include the 10 prototypes.
LNER coaches.
GWR coaches.
Anglia coaches.
Sleeper coaches
Midland coaches
Xc coaches.
Spares.
Scotrail?

By my reckoning there were 1,424 Mark 3 vehicles built:
- 10 prototypes
- 723 HST
- 253 LHCS Mark 3A
- 208 LHCS Sleepers
- 41 LHCS Mark 3B
- 52 DVTs
- 4 Royal Train (new)
- 133 Ireland

You might also add to that 120 Class 442 vehicles which used the 23m Mark 3 shell.

If somebody has a full service fleet list which would from the 80s platform 5.
I would say a 1983/85. No accidents before Polmont or withdrawals-1984.

Actually there were withdrawals pre 1985:
- 12039/162 were written off in the Bushey derailment in February 1980 (12162 was used for testing purposes afterwards in departmental service but never ran again)
- 12018 was scrapped after an arson incident at Cowlairs in November 1981
- 10505/524/528/652/659/733 were scrapped after the Morpeth derailment in June 1984
- 11004 and 12006 were written off in the Polmont derailment in July 1984

 

[4REP]

By my reckoning there were 1,424 Mark 3 vehicles built:
- 10 prototypes
- 723 HST
- 253 LHCS Mark 3A
- 208 LHCS Sleepers
- 41 LHCS Mark 3B
- 52 DVTs
- 4 Royal Train (new)
- 133 Ireland

You might also add to that 120 Class 442 vehicles which used the 23m Mark 3 shell.

Yes that sounds right I always thought before there were more than 848.
First time I gave up as the figures just did not match.

 

[4REP]

Originally I think there were 95 HST formations of 7 and 8 coaches. So the 723 figure sounds about right.
The LH stock I never knew there were that so many.
How many west coast sets of 90/87 mark 3 stock were there. I never even thought of to count DVT as coaches as they are driving vans TDM vehicles

 

[4REP]

By my reckoning there were 1,424 Mark 3 vehicles built:
- 10 prototypes
- 723 HST
- 253 LHCS Mark 3A
- 208 LHCS Sleepers
- 41 LHCS Mark 3B
- 52 DVTs
- 4 Royal Train (new)
- 133 Ireland

You might also add to that 120 Class 442 vehicles which used the 23m Mark 3 shell.


Actually there were withdrawals pre 1985:
- 12039/162 were written off in the Bushey derailment in February 1980 (12162 was used for testing purposes afterwards in departmental service but never ran again)
- 12018 was scrapped after an arson incident at Cowlairs in November 1981
- 10505/524/528/652/659/733 were scrapped after the Morpeth derailment in June 1984
- 11004 and 12006 were written off in the Polmont derailment in July 1984

Never knew of some other withdrawals other than Polmont but yes totally forgot about those other incidents

 

[Dave91131]

I would concur with 43096's total quantity of 1424 mk3 vehicles built (though I have very little to no knowledge of the 133 for Ireland) - questionably one could additionally include vehicles numbered 99519-99529 which I believe were built to sort of "showcase" the potential of the design for use abroad etc, I think these also ended up in Ireland but again very limited knowledge on my part relating to these.

Having parted company with my (not so) better half last year combined with current global circumstances, I have started work on a spreadsheet with the aim being to research and detail the lives of all mk3 and mk4 vehicles over the years. The goal is not to detail every last fact down to miniscule livery variations but more the basics including region / TOC of allocation, transfer from one region / TOC to another, re-numberings / re-designations, notable events (e.g involved in X derailment but repaired), periods in and locations of storage, locos involved in transfers to storage / scrap, disposal locations and of course preservation.

I'm sure most if not all of the historical information is available in a book or books which can be purchased, but where's the fun in that!

 

[4REP]

I think to get the correct answers you need the coaching stock book of 1980 and 1991.
Accidents/scrappings happened before the mid 80s then the new mark 3 loco hauled and class 442 were built before 1990 so 1991 is safe.

 

[4REP]

Do we include the Ireland coaches though?
Are we basing the number of BR Mark 3s built. Do the Ireland coaches come separate from BR built?

 

[Wyrleybart]

I would concur with 43096's total quantity of 1424 mk3 vehicles built (though I have very little to no knowledge of the 133 for Ireland) - questionably one could additionally include vehicles numbered 99519-99529 which I believe were built to sort of "showcase" the potential of the design for use abroad etc, I think these also ended up in Ireland but again very limited knowledge on my part relating to these.

Having parted company with my (not so) better half last year combined with current global circumstances, I have started work on a spreadsheet with the aim being to research and detail the lives of all mk3 and mk4 vehicles over the years. The goal is not to detail every last fact down to miniscule livery variations but more the basics including region / TOC of allocation, transfer from one region / TOC to another, re-numberings / re-designations, notable events (e.g involved in X derailment but repaired), periods in and locations of storage, locos involved in transfers to storage / scrap, disposal locations and of course preservation.

I'm sure most if not all of the historical information is available in a book or books which can be purchased, but where's the fun in that!

IIRC there have been a small number of vehicles which were experimentally converted but perhaps didn't return to mainline service. IIRC there were a couple of sleepers which were being cut around to consider converting into day coaches for whichever ECML franchise, and weren't there a couple of Mk3s at SPM which were guinea pigs, one with an office in the middle of the car.

I believe all the sleepers which went to Denmark returned. And the EPS Mk3 genny vans which presumably all still exist.

Great project and wish you well with it

 

[43096]

I would concur with 43096's total quantity of 1424 mk3 vehicles built (though I have very little to no knowledge of the 133 for Ireland) - questionably one could additionally include vehicles numbered 99519-99529 which I believe were built to sort of "showcase" the potential of the design for use abroad etc, I think these also ended up in Ireland but again very limited knowledge on my part relating to these.

Having parted company with my (not so) better half last year combined with current global circumstances, I have started work on a spreadsheet with the aim being to research and detail the lives of all mk3 and mk4 vehicles over the years. The goal is not to detail every last fact down to miniscule livery variations but more the basics including region / TOC of allocation, transfer from one region / TOC to another, re-numberings / re-designations, notable events (e.g involved in X derailment but repaired), periods in and locations of storage, locos involved in transfers to storage / scrap, disposal locations and of course preservation.

I'm sure most if not all of the historical information is available in a book or books which can be purchased, but where's the fun in that!

The 99519-529 batch were the "International" vehicles that BREL built as a demonstrator for a new design of coach, though their Mark 3 ancestry is very clear!

The history of the HST trailers is mostly contained in the Roger Harris book "The Allocation History of BR Diesel Multiple Units" part 4.

 

[4REP]

I have found a site that conveys all BR Mark 3 vehicles built totalling 1411 vehicles. Not including Ireland vehicles.
10 prototype vehicles
733 HST vehicles.
208 SLEP vehicles.
52 DVT vehicles.
288 Mark 3a/b vehicles.
120 class 442 vehicles.
Totals 1411 vehicles.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The history of the HST trailers is mostly contained in the Roger Harris book "The Allocation History of BR Diesel Multiple Units" part 4.

I bought this, thinking it would be useful...

Unfortunately, it records the depot allocation only, not the pool one as well; so a coach will be shown as (for example) allocated to Neville Hill in the past, but not whether it was Midland Main Line or East Coast (generically speaking in terms of route, through the different iterations of IC subsector/TOC) and I found it a bit disappointing for this reason - it's also hard to remember which depots provided stock for particular routes in the past. Maybe I've missed something.

And (trivially) the entries for the XC 45xxx's are a bit odd.

 

[43 302]

Another scraping move today, 20118 & 20132 5Z76 Ely to Newport Docks