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Ockley landslip

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bigdelboy

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Assuming this affects one line only, and this is an assumption on my part, would it be possible to operate a single train shuttle on this line between Horsham and Dorking at a rate of one an hour each way?

I suppose signalling of crossings might/would be a problem.
 
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sarahj

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Last thing you want when an embankment has come away is fixing it while a train runs less that 6 feet away. One mistake, one slight movement of the earth and you will have a 377 down the hole with you.
 

bigdelboy

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Last thing you want when an embankment has come away is fixing it while a train runs less that 6 feet away. One mistake, one slight movement of the earth and you will have a 377 down the hole with you.

I'd only be worried if I was on the 08:47 dorking to Horsham ... that's a nonstop 455 from memory and bounces around a bit ;)

...

Some of the thinking is they wont be fixing it for weeks, there would probably be a speed restriction at the spot, and it would be subject to an engineer's inspection.

...

I hate been bussed about. I remember being bussed from Guildford to Gomshall and we left Guildford only to discover the driver didn't know the way to Gomshall..... the bus transfers always take so long and are so painful.
 

Hophead

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Assuming this affects one line only, and this is an assumption on my part, would it be possible to operate a single train shuttle on this line between Horsham and Dorking at a rate of one an hour each way?

I suppose signalling of crossings might/would be a problem.

Happened last time the earth gave way, but the frequency was every 90 minutes - presume wrong-line working was speed restricted, as the north-bound (from memory) trip was close to normal times, but the return rather slower.

Although, on that occasion, I doubt the damage was as substantial. Network Rail have more details and some pictures.
 

Tomnick

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Assuming there's no bi-directional signalling, Single Line Working would have to be introduced, which does indeed carry a speed restriction in the wrong direction, requires extra time for the Pilotman to complete the necessary paperwork and issue instructions for each movement and often requires a shunt to access the single line in the wrong direction. Level crossings might need to be taken on local control too. That makes it harder to run a meaningful service, though - as above - the nature of the slip or the necessary protection for the remedial work might make even SLW impractical!
 

trubla

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From Nationalrail.co.uk :
Following the recent poor weather, there was a major landslip near to Ockley which has closed the railway line between Horsham and Dorking.
Around 40 metres of embankment has collapsed. Repairs will require an access road to be built to allow machinery in to carry out pile driving to underpin the embankment.
As a result of the significant repair work, the line is expected to be closed until early February 2013.

Who is in charge ? Dr Who?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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From Nationalrail.co.uk :
As a result of the significant repair work, the line is expected to be closed until early February 2013.

Can any forum member with railway experience of working with landslips of this type give their opinion that one month closure will be sufficiant, noting the ground substrate appertaining in the Ockley area.
 

Capvermell

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Can any forum member with railway experience of working with landslips of this type give their opinion that one month closure will be sufficiant, noting the ground substrate appertaining in the Ockley area.

I don't have any experience of working with landslips but Ockley is my local station and I live within an 0.75 mile walk of it and the line passes very close to my home in a westerly direction. Also I have lived in the area for the last 17 years and been a user of the station throughout this time period.

The original Network Rail picture actually rather overstates the damage in my opinion. This other picture at http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Gallery/Ockley-landslip-1d6c.aspx gives a rather more accurate impression of its real nature. The main problem however is that it appears to be shortly before the line crosses the bridge northbound over the B2126 Coles Lane, so they are going to be very concerned indeed about any potential knock on stability to the road bridge foundations caused by trains continuing to run before the embankment is underpinned. Despite all this I think that contraflow working on the southbound track at 5mph or whatever would be possible in the period when the underpinning was not currently going on if this was a crucial line to Network Rail with a lot of passengers using it.

The main thing to understand about Dorking to Horsham is that its status with Network Rail and the train operator (Southern) is actually anything other than crucial and is instead more actively characterised as being Cinderella Like. Therefore much of the lack of hurry to get on with the work is because quite a lot of resources will be needed to complete it (the embankment is high and steep and they will need to cut down a lot of trees and pile up a lot of earth with underpinning to make an access route) but the importance of reopening the line rapidly to Network Rail is small because of the fairly modest number of passengers using it and the fact that only main users are passengers from the three relatively minor stations of Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham. Also as they only enjoy an hourly rail service for most of the day and the A24 between Dorking and Horsham is as fast as the railway line the bus service does not cause huge issues (except possibly at Warnham station where it cannot easily turn around unless it is a very small mini bus).

At the end of the day if this was one of Network Rail's two lines to Gatwick then repairs would happen 24/7 night and day on an urgent basis and the job would get done in one to two weeks at most. However as this is the little used Dorking-Horsham line that largely only survived Beeching due to its role as a backup access route to Gatwick Airport and its long term expected potential due to population growth in the surrounding area Network Rail is simply not hurrying itself to get the job done.

Regarding level crossings there are no longer any between Dorking and Horsham that are used by cars or other road traffic left in operation on the route as the last one at Warnham was closed five years or so ago and has joined the several other former crossings that could be used by cars 100 years ago by now only being a foot crossing of the line. However due to the geography and the requirements of local landowners when the line was built most of the road crossings by the railway are either on viaducts (as with this one that has partly collapsed that crosses the B2126 Coles Lane) or underneath road bridges, as happens on the A24 in several different places.

You need to judge the actual context of the urgency to Network Rail in terms of the fact that the line is only used by one train after 8.30pm on a weekday evening, has no service after 6.30pm on a Saturday and no service at all on a Sunday. Also 95%+ of passengers from Horsham (especially all the passengers wanting to go to Central London) can reach their final destination by travelling via Three Bridges with a faster journey time than travelling via Dorking.

I personally would love to see more trains on this line but after many years of campaigning and only one success (converting the 23.26 from London Victoria on Monday to Friday in to a passenger train through to Horsham rather than terminating at Dorking and then running empty to Horsham as used to happen until December 2004) I can tell you that it is not going to happen as long as Southern Railway continues to hold the franchise and the route is not used as a through pathway to Bognor Regis or Littlehampton (all trains instead having been terminated at Horsham since the late 1970s).

So I hope the above is some help in explaining the apparently mysterious lack of urgency being shown by Network Rail in restoring services on this particular section of line.
 
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swt_passenger

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There'll not be an infinite supply of expertise amongst contractors for dealing with landslips, I'd have thought. Perhaps the experts, or the only suitable local contractors were working on the Portsmouth Direct?

(I suppose I'm assuming here that fixing a failed earthwork is a somewhat different proposition to building one from new, and NR are in a queue for resources with firms who deal with this stuff?)
 

bigdelboy

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..... Also 95%+ of passengers from Horsham (especially all the passengers wanting to go to Central London) can reach their final destination by travelling via Three Bridges with a faster journey time than travelling via Dorking. ....

Coming the arun up from chichester, (or even havant), this can be useful to dorking, epson, leatherhead, even sometimes reigate, and wimbledon. I say this from experience. However the connections from south of horsham are usually poor (and the risk of a missed connection a nightmare). That said the buffet on horsham station is relatively good, and probably far less danger of a stale sandwich than guildford 5/6 on a monday morning ;)

Platform train indicator displays are a nightmare at Horsham though, they often tell of many trains to london victoria ... but one needs to goto the platform to see if it is for mole valley!
 

JonathanH

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You need to judge the actual context of the urgency to Network Rail in terms of the fact that the line is only used by one train after 8.30pm on a weekday evening, has no service after 6.30pm on a Saturday and no service at all on a Sunday. Also 95%+ of passengers from Horsham (especially all the passengers wanting to go to Central London) can reach their final destination by travelling via Three Bridges with a faster journey time than travelling via Dorking.

I personally would love to see more trains on this line but after many years of campaigning and only one success (converting the 23.26 from London Victoria on Monday to Friday in to a passenger train through to Horsham rather than terminating at Dorking and then running empty to Horsham as used to happen until December 2004) I can tell you that it is not going to happen as long as Southern Railway continues to hold the franchise and the route is not used as a through pathway to Bognor Regis or Littlehampton (all trains instead having been terminated at Horsham since the late 1970s).

So I hope the above is some help in explaining the apparently mysterious lack of urgency being shown by Network Rail in restoring services on this particular section of line.

Southern appear to be struggling to offer the full service on the Dorking line without the through running to Horsham with quite a few cancellations throughout from Victoria rather than simply terminating short at Dorking, presumably because of the difficulty of matching Horsham drivers with trains running short and lack of terminating space at Dorking.
 

Peter Mugridge

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As a result of the significant repair work, the line is expected to be closed until early February 2013.

Who is in charge ? Dr Who?


Can any forum member with railway experience of working with landslips of this type give their opinion that one month closure will be sufficiant, noting the ground substrate appertaining in the Ockley area.

Errr... Paul... I think your calendar has stopped.:lol:
 

trubla

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Checked again today and its still showing line closed till Feb 2013 on the National rail Enquires
 

andy19_64

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Platform train indicator displays are a nightmare at Horsham though, they often tell of many trains to london victoria ... but one needs to goto the platform to see if it is for mole valley![/QUOTE]


But if you look at the smaller screens in the booking hall it tells you the route of the London Victoria trains one will say via Gatwick & Redhill and the other will say either via Hackbridge or Via Sutton or the other simple solution is to ask a member of staff
 

bigdelboy

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Platform train indicator displays are a nightmare at Horsham though, they often tell of many trains to london victoria ... but one needs to goto the platform to see if it is for mole valley!


But if you look at the smaller screens in the booking hall it tells you the route of the London Victoria trains one will say via Gatwick & Redhill and the other will say either via Hackbridge or Via Sutton or the other simple solution is to ask a member of staff[/QUOTE]

I dont do the booking hall .... i simply come up the arun valley .... (ideally on a boat train) ... and disembark on a platform. I have no deep desire to go up the steps and down into into the booking hall ... and back again ... simply to look at the useful screen ... I prefer to frequent the buffet on platform 2/3 for a cup of tea. Most mole valley depart from platform one, through some seem to use platform 4 just to be different.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Peter, most unlike you to cast aspersions upon the wrong person....:cry:

You will now have realised that the "February 2013" posting information was made by trubla on posting # 6....not I.

Whoops, so it was - apologies!



Before anyone asks, yes - my optician is Specsavers!

( And it is true that I did once walk into the shop next door when going to Specsavers to book an eye test appointment...!! )




Checked again today and its still showing line closed till Feb 2013 on the National rail Enquires

In that case it is obviously NRE's calendar which has stopped!

*casts aspersion correctly*
 
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30909

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There'll not be an infinite supply of expertise amongst contractors for dealing with landslips, I'd have thought. Perhaps the experts, or the only suitable local contractors were working on the Portsmouth Direct?

(I suppose I'm assuming here that fixing a failed earthwork is a somewhat different proposition to building one from new, and NR are in a queue for resources with firms who deal with this stuff?)

The work on the Portsmouth Direct was much greater but assisted by relatively easy access at the site of three upside landslips adjacent to Stocklands Equine Veterinary Centre near Champneys Health Spar Liphook all access via road and across agricultural land. The one that appears to have required the most material and more complex access issues is on the down line the Liphook side of Warren Road under bridge Liss Forest where road access for large vehicles would be a major problem. Most of the material was transhipped from road to rail at Liss level crossing.
At Ockley access, other than by rail, will be difficult as the adjacent land is mostly the gardens of large country houses and there is no obvious, from Google Maps, route for temporary access, this will be one of the major issue in the timing of the reinstatement.
 

thelem

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It turns out the Ockley landslip will block the Brighton Mainline on two sundays this month. From the Southern website:

Planned improvement work taking place on Sunday 12th and Sunday 26th January in the Purley area will block the Brighton Main Line. However, the planned diversionary route is not available due to a landslip between Horsham and Dorking.
 

user15681

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I heard earlier the possibility of another landslip at Ockley yesterday evening (7/1) and a few others have heard the same. No confirmation or any other details at the moment.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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But if you look at the smaller screens in the booking hall it tells you the route of the London Victoria trains one will say via Gatwick & Redhill and the other will say either via Hackbridge or Via Sutton or the other simple solution is to ask a member of staff

Has this particular matter, to which you make reference to, ever been raised with the TOC to see if there is any system updating planned in future years ?
 

bigdelboy

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Has this particular matter, to which you make reference to, ever been raised with the TOC to see if there is any system updating planned in future years ?

- If I remember correctly ... I did mention it to a member of staff ... and I recall him being unsure also. But I may disremember correctly.

- I have not mentioned it to the TOC. All their interchange stations I use, barnham, Horsham, three bridges, redhill, east Croydon give me grief and pain in their own ways ... and many more so than Horsham .... though all are better than Effingham junction on a cold night!
 

andy19_64

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Apparently last night there has been another landslip on the line, This time on the down line country end of Ockley station.
 

Capvermell

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Apparently last night there has been another landslip on the line, This time on the down line country end of Ockley station.

Although I actually live 0.5 miles from Ockley Station as the crow flies (about 0.75 miles on foot) and 0.3 miles from the railway line south of Ockley station I haven't been there for the last two weeks due to being away elsewhere over xmas.

I should be back there tomorrow so will go and have a look at the line from both Ockley station and from the Stylehurst foot crossing of the line about 0.2 miles south of Ockley station and let you know how the bad situation really looks.

I clearly don't know how the contractual relationship between Southern (the only normal users of the line south of Dorking as South West trains services all terminate at Dorking) and Network Rail operates but if it is possible I would suspect that Southern have a much lower priority lower cost Service Level Agreement with Network Rail for repairs on this section of line than on main lines like the lines to Gatwick and Brighton from London Victoria via East Croydon and Gatwick Airport.

Personally even before the second landslip I would not have trusted the "some time in early February" estimated completion date due to the amount of work involved in doing the repairs and the very small number of passengers very seriously adversely affected by the closure. With the news of the second land slip I would now fear the line could easily be closed and replaced by bus services to Easter or even until the middle of the year.

Regarding the current Southern timetable to Dorking from London Victoria the only serious problems I can see are with the extra half hourly morning and evening rush hour services for an hour and a half period as these can no longer be easily provided as the extra morning services were provided by introducing extra trains on to the line at Horsham and the evening services involved trains that terminated at Horsham but then became other services back via Gatwick or down the Arun Valley line instead of returning vis Dorking.

So I suppose this means that in addition to no trains at all between Dorking and Horsham the frequency of morning and evening peak services run between Dorking and Leatherhead in particular by Southern has probably been halved. However as the other two trains in the hour are run by South West Trains these ought to be able to still run as normal. The only actual change in terms of any overcrowding problems at Dorking station are that one train per hour that used to carry on southbound at the station to Horsham now also has to have a dwell time at the station before turning around and heading back up the line. However this clearly requires rescheduling of the timetable and driver's rosters in order to be achieved.

I suppose the once an hour Southern train that used to go through to Horsham might have to actually carry on South of Dorking and wait between Dorking and Holmwood in order to avoid blocking up the other platforms at Dorking for the other terminating services with shorter dwell times at the station. Alternatively a completely new emergency timetable for all services to Dorking that takes account of the closure needs to be introduced. Either way the additional half hourly services in the rush hour morning and evening periods will probably have to be cancelled entirely.

It should however be remembered that for several years in the 1980s all trains from London Victoria only ran as far as Dorking where they terminated while a separarte shuttle service ran from Dorking to Horsham. So all Southern have to do in order to cope is to introduce a new Dorking only rail timeable from London Victoria during the period of the closure and then operate a separate hourly replacement bus service from Dorking to Horsham to roughly tie up with times of one of the two trains per hour arriving at Dorking from London Victoria.

Bottom line is I strongly suspect these works may now take up to six months to complete because working in the daytime only is cheaper and safer and also I suspect that whether Network Rail is willing to pay for much longer working hours or night time working depends on the number of passengers affected by the closure. Whilst I agree Dorking to Horsham provides useful connections for some people the total number of passengers involved is very small and it is the number of passengers affected which I am sure will usually affect Network Rail's planning in terms of how quickly the repairs are carried out.

I do also hope that the substantial nature of the repairs involved will not be used as any form of opportunity to try to close the line permanently from Dorking to Horsham although I am not up to speed with issues such as how many years the current franchise has left to run and how easy it would be to try and close down a line during the middle of a franchise period for which an operator has a contract. On the whole I expect it will reopen in the end but closures have been a regular feature of this section of line throughout its history including a protracted period of closure when there was a major tunnel fall south of Dorking only a few years after the line first opened.

EDIT:-On checking the southernrailway.com website's timetable I see that a quarter hourly service to Dorking from Leatherhead being maintained but that some services to Dorking are now commencing from and terminating at Capham Junction instead of London Victoria. This is presumably because there will not be any platform room for them left at Victoria given that they will not able to arrive at or depart from that very busy station in their normal timetabled rush hour slots.
 
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andy19_64

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I think the problem why it is going to take so long to repair is not that they are not bothered but also the fact that they have got to build a road to get to the location.
How much of this is private land and is network rail having to haggle with the owners to be allowed access and are the land owners possibly asking for stupid amounts of money. I did here a strong rumor that they would have to knock down someones garage to get to the location. Hopefully there will be some more updates from Network Rail/Southern next week on how things are progressing.
 

user15681

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I think the problem why it is going to take so long to repair is not that they are not bothered but also the fact that they have got to build a road to get to the location.
How much of this is private land and is network rail having to haggle with the owners to be allowed access and are the land owners possibly asking for stupid amounts of money. I did here a strong rumor that they would have to knock down someones garage to get to the location. Hopefully there will be some more updates from Network Rail/Southern next week on how things are progressing.

I think this has been the big problem at the moment. I think most of the access road is completed now, so works should begin on the actual landslide itself. This picture shows the before and after of a stretch of the access road.
 

Capvermell

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I think this has been the big problem at the moment. I think most of the access road is completed now, so works should begin on the actual landslide itself. This picture shows the before and after of a stretch of the access road.

Not exactly "building a road" is it in the normal accepted sense of one that is going to carry lots of traffic and last for 20 years before the next major resurface? All they are actually doing is taking the previously narrow footpath that runs south from Coles Lane just west of the railway bridge that crosses the B2126 and turning it in to a temporary dirt track that is wide enough for vans with trailers carrying JCBs and the like to drive down. And unless I have misunderstood the photos the main landslip on the embankment is not actually very far away at all from the nearest surfaced road access point on Coles Lane.

On the whole I am always impressed by the relative level of energy and diligence that is shown by Network Rail in maintaining and keeping up to date and open a section of line (Dorking to Horsham via Holmwood, Ockley and Warnhams) that Southern repeatedly makes clear it has almost no commercial interest in improving itself. During November and December Network Rail were also carrying out significant works to the line to the north of Ockley Station from the access point on the Ockley Station Approach. They also spent a huge amount within the last five years updating the power supply on the line to allow Electrostars to run along it although did a rather less successful and sadly cheesepairing updating of the semaphore signals to a colour light system that is not adequate if the line is to also be used for other longer distance services to Bognor or Littlehampton.

Network Rail's Philstine instincts in terms of failing to preserve historic infrastructure also need to be restrained. This was achieved at Ockley station where a local resident managed to get the Mole Valley Distric Council Conservation Officer to serve a restraining notice on the night that Network Rail (or possibly it was Railtrack) arrived with chainsaws several years to try to cut down all the historic wooden canopies at Ockley Station and replace them with ugly plastic bus shelters. This attempt at vandalism was later blocked permanently when Ockley became Grade II listed. Sadly neither Holmwood or Warnham have enjoyed such a Knight Wight Saviour hence Holmwood losing its station building on the road bridge over the line 30 or so years ago and Warnham much more recently having its beautiful white wooden signal box and associated wooden gated car level crossing gates removed and replace by unsightly unpainted grey spike topped metal railings,

So anyhow perhaps Network Raill will actually take the job of reopening the line seriously and it will only take till the end of Feb. Then once the line reopens Southern will revert to their usual policy of active neglect of Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham complete with the quite extaordinary lack of a mid evening weekday service and also no Saturday evening service and no Sunday service at all for a line servings stations that are only 27 to 35 miles from Central London and that have direct train services to a London mainline terminus. Meanwhile a station such as nearby Gomshall, with only a quarter of the number of passengers of Homwood and Ockley, will continue to enjoy seven day a week passenger services.................

So while it is interesting to see the attention of this forum falling on this usually forgotten section of line I am sure that it is repaired you will forget all about us and the unacceptable Cinderella like train services it provides for another 25 years or so...........
 

swt_passenger

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... rather less successful and sadly cheesepairing updating of the semaphore signals to a colour light system that is not adequate if the line is to also be used for other longer distance services to Bognor or Littlehampton...

No-one is intending to run longer distance services that way though, for the perfectly valid reasons explained in the 2010 Sussex RUS. We discussed this in a fairly recent thread about the regularly proposed Arundel chord, but the reasons are related: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94423&highlight=arun
 
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B&W

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No-one is intending to run longer distance services that way though, for the perfectly valid reasons explained in the 2010 Sussex RUS. We discussed this in a fairly recent thread about the regularly proposed Arundel chord, but the reasons are related: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94423&highlight=arun

As someone who used the Bognor Victoria trains starting with the 4COR/4BUF trains in the 60s and finished when the 377s took over a lot of rot was said in that forum about running times.

Standard time was 55/56mins Vic to Horsham with stops then at Sutton (20mins) , Dorking, Horsham, Pulborough, Arundel, Barnham where trains divided. At Arundel you could change onto a 2BIL/HAL unit which shuttled around the triangle between Arundel, Littlehampton and Ford using the bays and loops as required. This was achieved with far more local trains and freight cluttering up the lines, and 75MPH limited low horsepower poor acceleration trains.
In the latter 60s the CIGs and BIGs came and stops latterly got added at Clapham Junc and Billingshurst but oddly never at Epsom although the trains had a 20MPH limit through there. Buffets were manned well into the evening.
The CIGs had a large margin in hand compared to the demands of the timetable. When a work to rule was on in the 70s we once left Vic 20 mins late but got to Horsham in 40mins and Pulborough on time. Now the supposedly high acceleration 377s cannot get to Sutton faster than 25mins and Horsham faster than over 1 hour apparently and this with no Waterloo - Horshams or freights getting in the way.
An Arundel junc east curve would offer a better service for Brighton diversions which happen quite often listening to the radio. Surely the masses of passengers on these Brighton diversions should be offered a better option than looking at Littlehampton industrial estates for an extra 30mins whilst the trains trundle into and out of the branch.

However I do agree reopening the Horsham to Shoreham line would be far better than the BM2 proposal missing out Lewes and tunnelling under the South Downs. You can clearly see the closed line from an airplane coming into Gatwick, some building intrusions yes but not insurmountable, even the Steyning bypass. The old Southern Railway had just started to put down concrete infrastructure to electrify this line in 1939 which my father showed me between Southwater and Itchenfield Junc, sadly WW2 put paid to that.

Brian
 

andy19_64

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I think they are going to try and implement single line running on Monday with trains being cautioned past the landslide
 
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