NXEC - 3rd Rate?

[whoshotjimmi]

I don't disagree with anything you have said about customer service at all, whoeshotjimmi. As for opinions, well, people have a right to them. All I'm saying, as enthusiasts, please lets try and move beyond the Daily Mail level, that's the simplistic straw man arguments designed to draw attention rather than offer considered solutions and lucid understanding of the realities. And try and highlight some of the good stuff, rather than banging the drum on the bad - its kinda wearing.

I'm more of a Sun man myself - can't understand a word the daily mail is banging on about!

You're right, lots of negativity, so why not open a new thread as per my previous post?

With regards to the 1st class debate here, I think it is only fair that a customer receives more in relation to their spend.

 

[CEXN]

I am a first time poster, I haven't read many of the NXEC threads, so I may post things that have already been stated, please be gentle with me. Rail franchising is farcical, designed to reward private company shareholders, at the detriment of customer service toward passengers. At staff briefings, they are told how wonderful NXEC is, revenues are up, customer satisfaction is up and trains are regularly above the PPM of 90%, but the frontline employees know differently. They should be providing a better standard of service, but when morale is at rock bottom because of staff cuts, and they're dealing with complaints of a sub standard service not of their own making, but by some number cruncher squeezing every last penny from the franchise to please their shareholders, it's not surprising the customer service standard slips even lower. The station staff who's job numbers are about to be cut, listening to abuse because of missed connections but have to try and help those customers complete their journey's, actually have to argue with their own control to authorise travel, again because of penny pinching. The only people who care whether the customer completes the journey or not are often the target of abuse. Every cut back imaginable is under scrutiny by the NX number crunchers, not because of dwindling revenues, but to ensure the dividends are paid to their share holders. That is part of the problem which is very visible to the customers, but what about maintenance? You may know about air cons not working, the blocked toilets, you might even notice doors locked out of use, not very clever in the event of an emergency and people have to get off quickly. What about below the train? what do you know about that. For example, are you aware that there may be up to 3 sets of brakes isolated because of cracked brake discs and more sets of discs that are cracked but are not isolated because they are not cracked over a certain measurement? Or do you know that brakes could be isolated because the brake pad holder is excessively worn and that there is no replacement that can be fitted? All of this because of penny pinching? There is so much penny pinching going on all over NX it is impossible to quantify, the only certainty in all of this, is that customers are being told they are receiving a better service for higher fares, we know better, the truth is out there. I would like to finish with a couple of points, while some staff can be incompetent or act like R Soles, the vast majority are good customer facing employees who are trying to do the best for their customers, while they're working with one hand tied behind their back following the company policy, they don't deserve the abuse that is sometimes directed at them. If you feel you really feel the need to vent your spleen, do not write to NX complaints department, complain direct to http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/ and your MP. NX don't care about their staff or their passengers, only their shareholders. I take a little satisfaction seeing their share price taking a hammering and hopefully they will decide to "hand back the keys" when their financial results are released on thursday. Unfortunately, I suspect some sort of deal will be made with the government to the detriment of the railway industry.

 

[andylloyd]

Will the government actually hand out bail outs like the car manufacturing area is seeking? I think not.
There maybe some kind of deal but this wont be the cheap way out though. I think we will just have to sit on the back burner for the time being and see whats announced on Thursday

I'm a regular traveller on NXEC and I have to say i've noticed a slight change in staff attitude and slight(very slight) deterioation in service i.e first class.

Cheers
Andy

 

[yorkie]

Then you must have been among the unfortunate 6%.

Then so are many other people. Jordy put in a claim for a trip we had last August and we got nothing back. Evil_Hippo put in a claim for a trip we had a year ago and got nothing back. I've heard similar stories from others. I suspect many are 'lost'.

 

[Pumbaa]

This morning on my early morning service from Leeds we had an automated PA announcement. Eh? Automated PA on an express service? I hope NXEC aren't trying to say that their guards/crew leaders are incapable of making an announcement...

 

[Failed Unit]

Then so are many other people. Jordy put in a claim for a trip we had last August and we got nothing back. Evil_Hippo put in a claim for a trip we had a year ago and got nothing back. I've heard similar stories from others. I suspect many are 'lost'.

I know they feeling, I got nothing back from a 1st open ticket after a 2 hour delay. They claimed they didn't receive it when I chased them up and the didn't accept a photo of the original ticket either. This was last year and what surprised me was the fact the delay was caused by a failed Grand Central HST they would have paided out very quickly as they could claim the lot back from Grand Central. Guess I should have sent it recorded delivery rather than use the pre-paid envelope they provide.

On the otherside, the very poor CT was actually quite good at replying to complaints and giving out money due to their poor performance.

 

[tbtc]

It's an outrage - they don't hand out "free" biscuits, the coffee cups aren't as nice as "the good old days" and some announcements are pre recorded!

Okay, passenger numbers are doing well and NXEC are investing in new services that'll offer a daytime service to London for some places that lack it, but surely none of this is as important as the coffee cups?

 

[O L Leigh]

What about below the train? what do you know about that. For example, are you aware that there may be up to 3 sets of brakes isolated because of cracked brake discs and more sets of discs that are cracked but are not isolated because they are not cracked over a certain measurement? Or do you know that brakes could be isolated because the brake pad holder is excessively worn and that there is no replacement that can be fitted?

That's scaremongering. If there really were that number of brakes isolated the drivers would simply refuse to take the set. We may get Cl317's sent out with half the motors isolated, but anything like brakes or doors is dealt with as per the rules. This will be the same on East Coast as it is on East Anglia.

Clearly you know a bit, but it strikes me that you are making up the gap with a certain degree of overembellishment.

O L Leigh

 

[Techniquest]

Then so are many other people. Jordy put in a claim for a trip we had last August and we got nothing back. Evil_Hippo put in a claim for a trip we had a year ago and got nothing back. I've heard similar stories from others. I suspect many are 'lost'.

Always chase it up and keep copies of what you send off!

I had that same problem with FGW once in late 2003. Over 3 months after my initial complaint I had received nothing. I had not received a letter they claimed had been sent out. A few days later and I had my letter explaining what should have happened (I'd been forced to sit around Reading for 3 hours after being sold an incorrect ticket not just on information from NRES but from a FGW TM which was not valid for my train home), recognising I was a very regular FGW traveller and to apologise for the delay in response and such got a complimentary First Class return between any two points on the FGW network!

But the point is, do chase it up after a reasonable amount of time and keep a copy of any original documents (in this case tickets and complaint forms) you send off in case the TOC claims they've lost it/not received it. Never had that problem particularly myself but it seems NXEC are getting good at it.

EDIT: As for the topic itself, I was never a fan of GNER and had little hope of NXEC improving things. But even I believe GNER were better than this. Their First Class provision was very good on my only GNER First Class trip between Newcastle and Edinburgh via Carlisle in October 2007, considering it was a Saturday. NXEC look like they at least carry on some traditions from GNER but the staff generally looked rather miserable (bar a few examples at Newcastle) on 17th January 2009.

As I have yet to sample NXEC's First Class provision, I can hardly comment on it but I don't hold any hope for it. Nearly all of my First Class bashing has been with FGW which has set the standard in my eyes. GNER equalled it, just, but NXEC would have to offer something brilliant to entice me into going First Class.

 

[Failed Unit]

It's an outrage - they don't hand out "free" biscuits, the coffee cups aren't as nice as "the good old days" and some announcements are pre recorded!

Okay, passenger numbers are doing well and NXEC are investing in new services that'll offer a daytime service to London for some places that lack it, but surely none of this is as important as the coffee cups?

Not when you have paid over £200 per ticket and are unlikely to use the new services it isn't. Anyway the cutback national express have made the coffee cups are the thin edge, as has been pointed out elsewhere services such as the 1500 London - Glasgow service has gone down from been a full restuarant (and well used at that) to just a buffet. Most Leeds services also are now just buffet, not much encouragement to buy a £200 ticket really. These changes only took place in January, we will see in 6 months time if the customer satisfaction ratings and / or loadings in 1st class drop. Personally the AP's won't really care but the full fares definately do. BTW - I am one that will benefit big time from the new timetable if / when it happens.

To try an put some perspective on this however, we had just as much outcry when GNER did massive cutbacks including the removal of a lot restaurants north of Newcastle. This caused outrage at the time again with the how are they going to compete with air lines. GNER also were often running out of food, the times I joined a train at York on the way to Edinburgh and found nothing was left for the entire journey - that to me is one of the worse things to do at least if you know it isn't anything on offer on board you can make other arrangements. I still think that the at-seat service has its place and before 1600 it is a better option than the restaurant, is it really such a big deal your breakfast comes along to your seat then having a dedicated area. Lunch services were not really that full either, except maybe directly around the 1300. However the removal of any form of catering from most Leeds services is bound to attract critism. What people fail to mention is that the service has improved at weekends following the changes.

Compared to the competition the east coast route is still ahead of the game, the fact everyone is lowering the game is a pity. Not even Ryanair would remove catering from its planes however. Looking at the former IC services this is what you now get.

NXEC,
Restuarants on a few trains monday - friday, at seat service on lots of London - Scotland trains all week including sunday. Tea and coffee served at your seat in 1st 7 days per week. free wi-fi in both classes, trolley and buffet in both classes.

NXEA,
The same as above apart from at-seat "enhanced catering" is only Monday - Friday.

Virgin.
Food included in the ticket price served at the seat (isn't this about the same as NXEC offer apart from it isn't included in the ticket). Tea and coffee served at your seat. Shop in standard. Not sure about the weekends, I am sure I read somewhere you must present your ticket to the shop to get anything but someone will correct me.
The Voyager services between Scotland and Birmingham do not offer at seat service to 1st class North of preston (or at least didn't 3 weeks ago)

FGW
Simular to NXEC, restuarants on a few long distance trains (and not as many as East Coast), Travelling Chef which is really the same as the at-seat services. Tea and coffee etc at seat in first. However at the weekend you need to go to the buffet with you ticket to get the tea and coffee. The difference in the seats is a lot larger between 1st and standard on HST services folling the conversion of standard to sardines. If you want a table go 1st now!

XC
Sound's like it is going down to trolley service only with limited at seat in first class.

EMT,
Sounds like trolley only for standard during the week, buffet only for everyone weekend. Restuarant serving breakfast only but nothing not real catering in the afternoon / evening. Don't know if the MML days of free wine has gone. Remember the outcry when stagecoach took over and removed the free tea and coffee to standard passengers?

Looking at all the TOC' all the recent relet have lowered thier standards. NXEC downgrading is not liked but they have seen what the others can get away with and have followed on. They are still however better than most of thier competitors. For the record I also prefer to buy food if I want it rather than have it included in my ticket price (which is more expensive as a result)

Me defending national express - I better take a nap.

 

[Metroland]

I do wonder if the vast amount of shops these days on stations as well as changing social habits have led to the downfall of the restaurant car.

Before the 1970s, it was common to have very set mealtimes, today people snack - I am definitely guilty of that.

I'm also guilty of buying food before I get on the train, tut tut

 

[Failed Unit]

I do wonder if the vast amount of shops these days on stations as well as changing social habits have led to the downfall of the restaurant car.

Before the 1970s, it was common to have very set mealtimes, today people snack - I am definitely guilty of that.

I'm also guilty of buying food before I get on the train, tut tut

I am evil as well if using certain TOC's.If you look at National Express east coast, they probably have cut into it on the London - Leeds market, it is a 2 hour journey afterall, waiting at the station is also dead time so you may as well get something to eat. You have a lot of choice as well so you know you will get what you want - rather than on the train where even if you know you really like something it doesn't mean it will be on offer.

On London - Edinburgh however there is still really a captive market, if you eat something at Kings Cross there is a high chance you may fancy something at Edinburgh.

Demand in the evening on the Scottish routes restuarants is still very high (if you can call 20 passengers on a train high). But they haven't altered provision at this time anyway.

If you look at XC which is soon only to offer a trolley I would certainly eat at the station, you never know if / when they trolley will arrive or if it will have any food at all.

 

[CEXN]

That's scaremongering. If there really were that number of brakes isolated the drivers would simply refuse to take the set. We may get Cl317's sent out with half the motors isolated, but anything like brakes or doors is dealt with as per the rules. This will be the same on East Coast as it is on East Anglia.

Clearly you know a bit, but it strikes me that you are making up the gap with a certain degree of overembellishment.

O L Leigh

That's scaremongering.

Ignorance is bliss.

If there really were that number of brakes isolated the drivers would simply refuse to take the set.

Drivers are aware of the exact number of brakes isolated, usually 2 or 3 sets with a reduced speed. Any more than 3, a coach is taken out to prevent the set running late due to reduced speed. The really scary bit is the number of brake discs with fractures that are not recorded yet because they are not big enough. Considering sets are checked at between 6 and 10 days, how long does it take for a crack to change from unrecordable to recordable and then dangerous?

...but anything like brakes or doors is dealt with as per the rules.

As far as I am aware they are dealt with under the rules?

Clearly you know a bit, but it strikes me that you are making up the gap with a certain degree of overembellishment.

I do not embellish, facts are facts. Making up what gap?

My point in posting what I have, is to give an example of the lengths NX will go to save money for the benefit of their shareholders, some savings are visible others not so visible. Under GNER, coaches with brakes and door faults would be withdrawn at the earliest opportunity. Under NX the boundaries are being pushed to the limits and will continue to do so until there is an incident. This, my friend is not scaremongering, but another example of money being taken from the railway industry ionstead of being reinvested to provide a better and safer transport system!

 

[Mojo]

I refuse to believe that it is all about the Shareholders - far more of it goes to DafT in the form of reduced subsidies/increased premiums. A huge amount of the problems result from the inadequacies of our current franchising system, which simply isn't working, and meddling from Civil Servants.

And by the way - I don't have any Shares in a transport company, I think you'd have to be insane to buy shares in First, NatEx, et al.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I am a first time poster, I haven't read many of the NXEC threads, so I may post things that have already been stated, please be gentle with me. Rail franchising is farcical, designed to reward private company shareholders, at the detriment of customer service toward passengers. At staff briefings, they are told how wonderful NXEC is, revenues are up, customer satisfaction is up and trains are regularly above the PPM of 90%, but the frontline employees know differently. They should be providing a better standard of service, but when morale is at rock bottom because of staff cuts, and they're dealing with complaints of a sub standard service not of their own making, but by some number cruncher squeezing every last penny from the franchise to please their shareholders, it's not surprising the customer service standard slips even lower. The station staff who's job numbers are about to be cut, listening to abuse because of missed connections but have to try and help those customers complete their journey's, actually have to argue with their own control to authorise travel, again because of penny pinching. The only people who care whether the customer completes the journey or not are often the target of abuse. Every cut back imaginable is under scrutiny by the NX number crunchers, not because of dwindling revenues, but to ensure the dividends are paid to their share holders. That is part of the problem which is very visible to the customers, but what about maintenance? You may know about air cons not working, the blocked toilets, you might even notice doors locked out of use, not very clever in the event of an emergency and people have to get off quickly. What about below the train? what do you know about that. For example, are you aware that there may be up to 3 sets of brakes isolated because of cracked brake discs and more sets of discs that are cracked but are not isolated because they are not cracked over a certain measurement? Or do you know that brakes could be isolated because the brake pad holder is excessively worn and that there is no replacement that can be fitted? All of this because of penny pinching? There is so much penny pinching going on all over NX it is impossible to quantify, the only certainty in all of this, is that customers are being told they are receiving a better service for higher fares, we know better, the truth is out there. I would like to finish with a couple of points, while some staff can be incompetent or act like R Soles, the vast majority are good customer facing employees who are trying to do the best for their customers, while they're working with one hand tied behind their back following the company policy, they don't deserve the abuse that is sometimes directed at them. If you feel you really feel the need to vent your spleen, do not write to NX complaints department, complain direct to http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/ and your MP. NX don't care about their staff or their passengers, only their shareholders. I take a little satisfaction seeing their share price taking a hammering and hopefully they will decide to "hand back the keys" when their financial results are released on thursday. Unfortunately, I suspect some sort of deal will be made with the government to the detriment of the railway industry.

I'd be a bit careful about posting stuff like this on a public forum CEXN, whether what you're saying is true or not.

 

[CEXN]

I refuse to believe that it is all about the Shareholders - far more of it goes to DafT in the form of reduced subsidies/increased premiums. A huge amount of the problems result from the inadequacies of our current franchising system, which simply isn't working, and meddling from Civil Servants.

And by the way - I don't have any Shares in a transport company, I think you'd have to be insane to buy shares in First, NatEx, et al.

..far more of it goes to DafT in the form of reduced subsidies/increased premiums.

Couldn't agree more. The franchising system basically hands over the keys to the highest bidder, and they really don't care how they get paid or who suffers. If the franchise system is to exist, it must ensure the product improves first before they start worrying about their own payback from x, y, or z franchise. Why not offer the franchise to a management company on a fixed payment contract with additional bonuses for hitting certain targets, that way ensuring most of the profits are reinvested into the railway industry?

I refuse to believe that it is all about the Shareholders

GNER couldn't do it for £1.3B and they were trying to provide a decent safe service, so I don't know why NX thought they could do it for £1.4B, unless they were always intending to provide an inferior product. Private companies exist for the benefit of their shareholders. NX have a duty to ensure that their shareholders get the best possible return on their investment. Do they have to ensure that their customers get the best possible service?

A huge amount of the problems result from the inadequacies of our current franchising system, which simply isn't working, and meddling from Civil Servants.

Agreed

And by the way - I don't have any Shares in a transport company, I think you'd have to be insane to buy shares in First, NatEx, et al.

And I'm not against private companies paying dividends to their shareholders, I just think they should be a bit more ethical in the way they achieve their profits. And before anyone asks, no I don't know where my pension contributions are invested, yes I do want the best possible return, and hopefully it achieves its results in an ethical manner.

 

[John @ home]

On the 10 day response time to customer correspondence, I believe that NXEC are 94% to target on this.

This may well be so, but one tends to make judgments based on one's own experiences. It is quite difficult to put these aside and to rely on generic statistics such as this.

My own experience is that both PPM performance and speed of dealing with Delay Repay claims deteriorated sharply when NXEC replced GNER. The statistics show that my experience was not typical and that PPM performance actually held up quite well.

But response to correspondence has been very poor indeed. I made 8 claims from NXEC relating to my journeys in 2008. From my perspective, the outcome was:

Shortest period between claim and resolution: 17 days
Longest period between claim and resolution: 148 days
Average period between claim and resolution: 46 days
(Note: days, not 'working days')

If one assumes that the 'correct' compensation is as laid down on NXEC's web site (rounded up to the next pound), then the amount received was:
correct: 6
overpaid: 1
underpaid: 1

Passenger Focus wrote to me in October 2008:
NXEC encountered major delays to their responses earlier this year when their data systems were corrupted and needed to be sent away for repair. As a result of this, some complaints were caught in the system and hence delays and backlogs of workstreams were caused. NXEC had been making good progress to clear the backlogs and measures had been put in place to bring their response times back within their Passenger Charter targets. Unfortunately, problems are still happening with the delays to responses and we have raised our concerns with the Head of Customer Services.

It would be interesting to know whether these measures have survived NXEC's announcement of redundancies.

John

 

[tbtc]

Compared to the competition the east coast route is still ahead of the game

It is indeed, which makes the criticism strange, considering how other IC providers don't bother with restaurants whatsoever.

 

[Max]

Just to add my opinions (note I can only really talk from my own experiences). On the Hull-London flow, Hull Trains definitely seem to have won the battle over NXEC. They fill the trains for much of the day, whilst the Hull Executive is generally fairly quiet between Hull and Selby. NXEC haven't really helped by downgrading the service considerably, from full restaurant to no dining service at all! Personally, I can't fully understand this. The northbound 1720 was always very busy, particularly for Doncaster passengers, and I can't believe that there isn't even a demand for at-seat dining. NXEC appear to be running these important business services into the ground. Then again, Hull has often had a 2nd rate service, with these services frequently cancelled, particularly at weekends.

Generally, the customer service seems to be of a much higher standard on Hull Trains. Catering is excellent and very good value compared to other TOCs. FC ticket holders get a particularly good deal, with a complimentary 3-course meal, free newspaper and a wide range of free refreshments, unlike NXEC's pathetic offering of tea/coffee/orange and biscuits. Personally, if I held a first open from Retford or Grantham to London I know who I would choose to use. Hull Trains have certainly won the battle for Hull, Brough and Selby to London. If Grand Central ran more services from York, I have a feeling that NXEC could be threatened there too.

 

[D841]

Just to add my opinions (note I can only really talk from my own experiences). On the Hull-London flow, Hull Trains definitely seem to have won the battle over NXEC. They fill the trains for much of the day, whilst the Hull Executive is generally fairly quiet between Hull and Selby. NXEC haven't really helped by downgrading the service considerably, from full restaurant to no dining service at all! Personally, I can't fully understand this. The northbound 1720 was always very busy, particularly for Doncaster passengers, and I can't believe that there isn't even a demand for at-seat dining. NXEC appear to be running these important business services into the ground.

I used the 17.20 once, a couple of years ago, when GNER were restricting restaurant car service to 1st class passengers only. I reasoned that I had a better chance of a meal on this one with a standard class ticket, (and none whatsoever on the Leeds service I really wanted) and I was right. There was hardly anyone else dining other than me. I'm not surprised they've pulled the restaurant on that one.

I agree with you that Hull Trains command the market now.

 

[O L Leigh]

That's scaremongering.

Ignorance is bliss.

Perhaps so. Maybe you better PM me with some credentials so that I know on exactly what basis you make these claims.

If there really were that number of brakes isolated the drivers would simply refuse to take the set.

Drivers are aware of the exact number of brakes isolated, usually 2 or 3 sets with a reduced speed. Any more than 3, a coach is taken out to prevent the set running late due to reduced speed. The really scary bit is the number of brake discs with fractures that are not recorded yet because they are not big enough. Considering sets are checked at between 6 and 10 days, how long does it take for a crack to change from unrecordable to recordable and then dangerous?

Can you isolated individual brakes on a Mk4...? The normal means of isolation would be to take out the entire coach by isolating the brake air system on that vehicle. I am not aware of any facility whereby an individual pair of calipers can be isolated.

Besides, the inspection routine and possibility of currently undetectable cracks turning into a fracture is not unique to either NXEC or their fleet. This could just as easily develop under a VWC Pendolino or a FGW HST.

...but anything like brakes or doors is dealt with as per the rules.

As far as I am aware they are dealt with under the rules?

Really...? That's not what it sounds like from your description. It sounds suspiciously like you're unfamiliar with the braking regulations. If, however, they are being dealt with as per the rules then really there is very little to be concerned about.

Clearly you know a bit, but it strikes me that you are making up the gap with a certain degree of overembellishment.

I do not embellish, facts are facts. Making up what gap?

My point in posting what I have, is to give an example of the lengths NX will go to save money for the benefit of their shareholders, some savings are visible others not so visible. Under GNER, coaches with brakes and door faults would be withdrawn at the earliest opportunity. Under NX the boundaries are being pushed to the limits and will continue to do so until there is an incident. This, my friend is not scaremongering, but another example of money being taken from the railway industry ionstead of being reinvested to provide a better and safer transport system!

You're propagating a scare story about high speed trains running around with large numbers of defective and isolated brakes just to make a point about money. That's a pretty big embellishment.

Defective brakes are a fact of life. Every now and then a set will go sick and require to be dealt with. The rules allow for this and set down restrictions for whether or not a train may remain in service or must be taken out straight away. This is no big deal. Are you suggesting that NXEC is failing to comply with the rules?

It might simply be the case that NXEC are suffering a higher than expected rate of failures for some reason and the rate of failure is outstripping the speed of supply of replacement parts. NXEA is currently in the same situation with Cl317 traction motors because of the unexpectedly high number that went pop in the snow. Again, parts supply problems aren't unusual.

Besides, unless you're quite a long way up the NXEC tree (in which case you almost certainly wouldn't be posting on this forum) you will have absolutely no idea how the money is spent and whether or not the cost savings are going directly to benefit the shareholders. Please, lets keep this discussion at least reasonably sensible.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

Publishing full year results today (26 February) the transport operator sought to reassure the City that it not facing a cash crisis as a result of onerous East Coast rail franchise commitments agreed to before the collapse in global financial markets.

The company confirmed that it has discussed franchise terms with government and denied that the East Coast deal was non-negotiable. "The notion that you sign the contract and that's it forever is nonsense," said chief executive Richard Bowker. "It is dynamic, it can change all the time."

However, Bowker said National Express could remain profitable without changes in the franchise term and the company has slashed its dividend by 40% and intends to implement a rigorous cost-cutting programme to shore up its position. The company announced plans to cut 750 jobs late last year and further redundancies have not been ruled out.

http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=5663

 

[Failed Unit]

The company confirmed that it has discussed franchise terms with government and denied that the East Coast deal was non-negotiable. "The notion that you sign the contract and that's it forever is nonsense," said chief executive Richard Bowker. "It is dynamic, it can change all the time."

Amazing how he has changed his tune since he was in charge of the SRA and was saying exactly the opposite!

 

[Metroland]

 

[CEXN]

Perhaps so. Maybe you better PM me with some credentials so that I know on exactly what basis you make these claims.



Can you isolated individual brakes on a Mk4...? The normal means of isolation would be to take out the entire coach by isolating the brake air system on that vehicle. I am not aware of any facility whereby an individual pair of calipers can be isolated.

Besides, the inspection routine and possibility of currently undetectable cracks turning into a fracture is not unique to either NXEC or their fleet. This could just as easily develop under a VWC Pendolino or a FGW HST.



Really...? That's not what it sounds like from your description. It sounds suspiciously like you're unfamiliar with the braking regulations. If, however, they are being dealt with as per the rules then really there is very little to be concerned about.



You're propagating a scare story about high speed trains running around with large numbers of defective and isolated brakes just to make a point about money. That's a pretty big embellishment.

Defective brakes are a fact of life. Every now and then a set will go sick and require to be dealt with. The rules allow for this and set down restrictions for whether or not a train may remain in service or must be taken out straight away. This is no big deal. Are you suggesting that NXEC is failing to comply with the rules?

It might simply be the case that NXEC are suffering a higher than expected rate of failures for some reason and the rate of failure is outstripping the speed of supply of replacement parts. NXEA is currently in the same situation with Cl317 traction motors because of the unexpectedly high number that went pop in the snow. Again, parts supply problems aren't unusual.

Besides, unless you're quite a long way up the NXEC tree (in which case you almost certainly wouldn't be posting on this forum) you will have absolutely no idea how the money is spent and whether or not the cost savings are going directly to benefit the shareholders. Please, lets keep this discussion at least reasonably sensible.

O L Leigh

Perhaps so. Maybe you better PM me with some credentials so that I know on exactly what basis you make these claims.

I do not wish to PM you regarding my credentials. You either believe me or you don't.

Can you isolated individual brakes on a Mk4...? The normal means of isolation would be to take out the entire coach by isolating the brake air system on that vehicle. I am not aware of any facility whereby an individual pair of calipers can be isolated.

Brakes can be isolated individually if you know how? You are obviously not as well informed as you think you are.

Besides, the inspection routine and possibility of currently undetectable cracks turning into a fracture is not unique to either NXEC or their fleet. This could just as easily develop under a VWC Pendolino or a FGW HST.

Who said anything about undetectable cracks? I am talking about visible cracks / fractures that are measurable. They could happen under VWC or FGW. They may deal with them differently.



Really...? That's not what it sounds like from your description. It sounds suspiciously like you're unfamiliar with the braking regulations. If, however, they are being dealt with as per the rules then really there is very little to be concerned about.

I know what I know. Maybe you should PM me with your credentials because it appears you know very little about management of known safety critical defects. Tell me, who makes the rules? Who manages them? There is very little to be worried about if no accidents take place.

You're propagating a scare story about high speed trains running around with large numbers of defective and isolated brakes just to make a point about money. That's a pretty big embellishment.

I am not propagating anything. There are trains running about with a set number of isolated brakes and numerous brake disc fractures which in time will become bad enough to warrant further brake isolations. Only money can pay for supplies. No big embellishment from me. What do you know about NX that makes you confident enough to call me a liar?


Defective brakes are a fact of life. Every now and then a set will go sick and require to be dealt with. The rules allow for this and set down restrictions for whether or not a train may remain in service or must be taken out straight away. This is no big deal. Are you suggesting that NXEC is failing to comply with the rules?

The issue is not about defective brakes, it's about brake discs with known defects. Again, this is no big deal as long as there is no accidents. There might never be, but then again, who knows? There has never been a major incident involving brake discs, but then again, there has never been as many brake disc defects being currently reported.

It might simply be the case that NXEC are suffering a higher than expected rate of failures for some reason and the rate of failure is outstripping the speed of supply of replacement parts. NXEA is currently in the same situation with Cl317 traction motors because of the unexpectedly high number that went pop in the snow. Again, parts supply problems aren't unusual.

The rate of failure could be down to "cost effective" measures ie, the cheapest available. Rate of failure outstripping speed of supply, could be down to paying suppliers as late as possible because of "cost effective" measures.

Besides, unless you're quite a long way up the NXEC tree (in which case you almost certainly wouldn't be posting on this forum) you will have absolutely no idea how the money is spent and whether or not the cost savings are going directly to benefit the shareholders. Please, lets keep this discussion at least reasonably sensible.

You could be at the bottom of the NX tree and see how the money is NOT being spent. You're right, lets keep this discussion reasonably sensible. I don't know how any savings benefit the shareholder.

The savings are obviously being reinvested back into NXEC to provide a safer, more cost effective, hassle free experience, with fares pegged at a reasonable rate!

If you can answer yes to the above statement, then the share holders are getting a raw deal.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps so. Maybe you better PM me with some credentials so that I know on exactly what basis you make these claims.

I do not wish to PM you regarding my credentials. You either believe me or you don't.

Then I choose to take what you're saying with a pinch of salt. Sorry, but there we are.

Can you isolated individual brakes on a Mk4...? The normal means of isolation would be to take out the entire coach by isolating the brake air system on that vehicle. I am not aware of any facility whereby an individual pair of calipers can be isolated.

Brakes can be isolated individually if you know how? You are obviously not as well informed as you think you are.

I never claimed to be familiar with the Mk4, which was why I phrased it as a question. Perhaps you would kindly explain this. My inkling is that this is a job that would require the train to be in the shed and dealt with by a fitter.

Besides, the inspection routine and possibility of currently undetectable cracks turning into a fracture is not unique to either NXEC or their fleet. This could just as easily develop under a VWC Pendolino or a FGW HST.

Who said anything about undetectable cracks? I am talking about visible cracks / fractures that are measurable. They could happen under VWC or FGW. They may deal with them differently.

No. You mentioned cracks that were not recorded yet because they were not big enough. Either way my point still stands.

I suppose other TOC's may deal with them differently, but then again they may not. Clearly neither of us will know for sure so perhaps we should set this one aside.

Really...? That's not what it sounds like from your description. It sounds suspiciously like you're unfamiliar with the braking regulations. If, however, they are being dealt with as per the rules then really there is very little to be concerned about.

I know what I know. Maybe you should PM me with your credentials because it appears you know very little about management of known safety critical defects. Tell me, who makes the rules? Who manages them? There is very little to be worried about if no accidents take place.

I'm a driver for NXEA, as almost everyone else here already knows. I understand the braking regulations and what they require if a train has defective/isolated brakes. In this respect, as with every other aspect of the Rules that apply to my job, I suppose you could say that I am very familiar with the management of safety critical systems. Perhaps now I've shown you mine you would kind enough to show me yours and explain to me precisely what your position is. Then maybe we can finally move this discussion forward.

As for your questions, I'm unsure what you're referring to. Do you work for RSSB...? If so, why are you commenting on NXEC?

Besides, you've missed my point. If NXEC are routinely running trains with isolated brakes and provided they are not contravening the braking regulations regarding the formation of the train and the level of reduction in brakeforce, there really is no need to take NXEC to task. Yes you can play the emotive card and claim that there is nothing to worry about provided nothing went wrong, but what would happen if it did...? Provided NXEC are inside the braking regulations scrutiny would fall on the effectiveness of the regulations themselves.

You're propagating a scare story about high speed trains running around with large numbers of defective and isolated brakes just to make a point about money. That's a pretty big embellishment.

I am not propagating anything. There are trains running about with a set number of isolated brakes and numerous brake disc fractures which in time will become bad enough to warrant further brake isolations. Only money can pay for supplies. No big embellishment from me. What do you know about NX that makes you confident enough to call me a liar?

Did I call you a liar...? Have I said that NXEC do not have trains running around with isolated brakes...? You're the one making the leap.

I don't claim to know anything special about NX, but then neither am I paranoid enough to be looking for motive in every little thing that happens at the pointy end. Granted I've not been on the railway long, but I've already been here long enough to know that sometimes things just happen. Often all it takes is a sudden change in the weather.

Defective brakes are a fact of life. Every now and then a set will go sick and require to be dealt with. The rules allow for this and set down restrictions for whether or not a train may remain in service or must be taken out straight away. This is no big deal. Are you suggesting that NXEC is failing to comply with the rules?

The issue is not about defective brakes, it's about brake discs with known defects. Again, this is no big deal as long as there is no accidents. There might never be, but then again, who knows? There has never been a major incident involving brake discs, but then again, there has never been as many brake disc defects being currently reported.

Just to clarify the terminology, a fractured disc is a brake defect. Anything that prevents a system working correctly, any failure or any need to carry out an isolation is a defect.

I will refer you again to what I've said about the braking regulations to which all operators must abide.

It might simply be the case that NXEC are suffering a higher than expected rate of failures for some reason and the rate of failure is outstripping the speed of supply of replacement parts. NXEA is currently in the same situation with Cl317 traction motors because of the unexpectedly high number that went pop in the snow. Again, parts supply problems aren't unusual.

The rate of failure could be down to "cost effective" measures ie, the cheapest available. Rate of failure outstripping speed of supply, could be down to paying suppliers as late as possible because of "cost effective" measures.

Could be. Equally it could be down to poor quality from the supplier that has nothing to do with cost or promptness of payment. There could be any number of reasons why. However, just having lots of one sort of failure could simply be down to factors beyond NXEC's control. The last time we blew lots of Cl317 traction motors for reasons other than snow ingress was because the contractor who was reconditioning them had wound them wrong. The company went so far as to install cameras inside the motors on one unit to find out what was going on before going back to the contractor and giving them a rocket. We have since had no repeat of this performance even though we still use the same contractor (or so I have been lead to believe by those more in the know about such matters).

Unless you actually know something about these alleged brake disc failures I would respectfully suggest that you are applying your own interpretation to events.

Besides, unless you're quite a long way up the NXEC tree (in which case you almost certainly wouldn't be posting on this forum) you will have absolutely no idea how the money is spent and whether or not the cost savings are going directly to benefit the shareholders. Please, lets keep this discussion at least reasonably sensible.

You could be at the bottom of the NX tree and see how the money is NOT being spent. You're right, lets keep this discussion reasonably sensible. I don't know how any savings benefit the shareholder.

The savings are obviously being reinvested back into NXEC to provide a safer, more cost effective, hassle free experience, with fares pegged at a reasonable rate!

If you can answer yes to the above statement, then the share holders are getting a raw deal.

I am at the bottom of the tree and I can see how things could be better. Unfortunately what I don't see is what efforts (if any) those higher up are making to improve the situation on the ground. Equally I don't know what relationship the company has with it's suppliers and contractors, where the money is going or whether or not the shareholders benefit.

I know that NX is not popular and that there is an awful lot of rumour going around and people are putting their own spin on things that really wouldn't be worth mentioning if it were any other TOC, so I'm always wary of new theories and want to try and dig down and expose the real causes behind what people are saying.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm digging my teeth into you over brake issues, but without knowing anything about you I have no idea whether or not what you say has any credence whatsoever. I don't want to keep banging on about the braking regulations, but I do understand these and know how they will be applied in a situation like this.

O L Leigh

 

[CEXN]

Then I choose to take what you're saying with a pinch of salt. Sorry, but there we are.



I never claimed to be familiar with the Mk4, which was why I phrased it as a question. Perhaps you would kindly explain this. My inkling is that this is a job that would require the train to be in the shed and dealt with by a fitter.



No. You mentioned cracks that were not recorded yet because they were not big enough. Either way my point still stands.

I suppose other TOC's may deal with them differently, but then again they may not. Clearly neither of us will know for sure so perhaps we should set this one aside.



I'm a driver for NXEA, as almost everyone else here already knows. I understand the braking regulations and what they require if a train has defective/isolated brakes. In this respect, as with every other aspect of the Rules that apply to my job, I suppose you could say that I am very familiar with the management of safety critical systems. Perhaps now I've shown you mine you would kind enough to show me yours and explain to me precisely what your position is. Then maybe we can finally move this discussion forward.

As for your questions, I'm unsure what you're referring to. Do you work for RSSB...? If so, why are you commenting on NXEC?

Besides, you've missed my point. If NXEC are routinely running trains with isolated brakes and provided they are not contravening the braking regulations regarding the formation of the train and the level of reduction in brakeforce, there really is no need to take NXEC to task. Yes you can play the emotive card and claim that there is nothing to worry about provided nothing went wrong, but what would happen if it did...? Provided NXEC are inside the braking regulations scrutiny would fall on the effectiveness of the regulations themselves.



Did I call you a liar...? Have I said that NXEC do not have trains running around with isolated brakes...? You're the one making the leap.

I don't claim to know anything special about NX, but then neither am I paranoid enough to be looking for motive in every little thing that happens at the pointy end. Granted I've not been on the railway long, but I've already been here long enough to know that sometimes things just happen. Often all it takes is a sudden change in the weather.



Just to clarify the terminology, a fractured disc is a brake defect. Anything that prevents a system working correctly, any failure or any need to carry out an isolation is a defect.

I will refer you again to what I've said about the braking regulations to which all operators must abide.



Could be. Equally it could be down to poor quality from the supplier that has nothing to do with cost or promptness of payment. There could be any number of reasons why. However, just having lots of one sort of failure could simply be down to factors beyond NXEC's control. The last time we blew lots of Cl317 traction motors for reasons other than snow ingress was because the contractor who was reconditioning them had wound them wrong. The company went so far as to install cameras inside the motors on one unit to find out what was going on before going back to the contractor and giving them a rocket. We have since had no repeat of this performance even though we still use the same contractor (or so I have been lead to believe by those more in the know about such matters).

Unless you actually know something about these alleged brake disc failures I would respectfully suggest that you are applying your own interpretation to events.



I am at the bottom of the tree and I can see how things could be better. Unfortunately what I don't see is what efforts (if any) those higher up are making to improve the situation on the ground. Equally I don't know what relationship the company has with it's suppliers and contractors, where the money is going or whether or not the shareholders benefit.

I know that NX is not popular and that there is an awful lot of rumour going around and people are putting their own spin on things that really wouldn't be worth mentioning if it were any other TOC, so I'm always wary of new theories and want to try and dig down and expose the real causes behind what people are saying.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm digging my teeth into you over brake issues, but without knowing anything about you I have no idea whether or not what you say has any credence whatsoever. I don't want to keep banging on about the braking regulations, but I do understand these and know how they will be applied in a situation like this.

O L Leigh

OK, you appear to know what your talking about and claim to be a driver, but as far as I'm concerned, you could be anyone. I do not wish to divulge further information about myself for that reason. As a driver, you will be given lots of information from your control about the set you will be taking out, and yes you will be competent in safety critical systems relevant to your position. Because you may be "expert" in your field, you shouldn't dismiss other peoples expertise in other fields. Your control is or should be aware of every known defect big or small recorded on the set you are taking out. They must tell you about any safety critical defect that will affect your control of the train. They don't have to tell you about recorded defects that may become safety critical in the the next 6-10 days until it's next exam. For example, you could have 3 sets of isolated brakes because of disc fractures exceeding limits. You could also have x number of discs with fractures that are only mm's short of exceeding limits that then require brake isolations. Brake disc fractures are a fairly new problem arising over the last 18 months, but it is becoming more and more regular. Without saying too much more, try asking your colleagues who work with NXEC what they know about sets running about with isolated brakes and for how long. You may be surprised if they tell you months? In my experience they are a company that take things to the limits and only act when they really have to and sadly it's about to get worse.

Just to clarify the terminology, a fractured disc is a brake defect. Anything that prevents a system working correctly, any failure or any need to carry out an isolation is a defect.

I agree and disagree with the above statement. The brake system works perfectly well with disc fractures up to a certain length, therefore a brake disc defect is not necessaily a brake defect. It only becomes a brake defect when an isolation has to be effected. You have your terminology, I have mines, but really I'm not here to pick a fight. I have a lot of years experience in my field, and witnessed a lot of change to the regulations brcause of accidents that could have been prevented. There is always another accident just around the corner because of complacency, ignorance or neglect. I am going to post a link that you might find interesting and within it I would suggest you pay particular attention to Ladbroke Grove, Paddington, Hatfield, and Grayrigg. I would like to think we are both on the same side.
I wont be back.

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/ev...elopment=all&published=no&event=all&submit=Go

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/li...blisher=all&published=all&submit=Go&event=142

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/li...blisher=all&published=all&submit=Go&event=143

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/li...blisher=all&published=all&submit=Go&event=145

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/li...lisher=all&published=all&submit=Go&event=6279

 

[blacknight]

The charge of NXEC being a third rate came about from debate in House of Lords over previous catering changes in January by the company, I wonder in light of Mr Bowker recent statement of future of onboard catering would have Lord Adonis government minister have defended NatEx quite the same.
First year of ECML franchise was run very much along GNER lines only now are we being to see what a total mess is being made of running of this franchise by National Express from silver service to no service thats some going in 2 months.

 

[The North Briton]

First year of ECML franchise was run very much along GNER lines only now are we being to see what a total mess is being made of running of this franchise by National Express from silver service to no service thats some going in 2 months.

Couldn't agree more! NX has an attitude problem, in that it regards the ECML as part of it's wider business empire and not at all as a franchise which can be lost, won, given up etc. As a result the management and adminstration of the franchise is split between NXEC itself, group offices in London and Birmingham and even NXEA in Colchester! I believe the UK Trains HR Director has got the push (sorry, 'left to pursue other interests') - can anyone confirm this? Whether this is because she presided over such a fiasco, or because the restructuring hasn't gone far enough remains to be seen! When they won the franchise, staff were told it would 'continue to be run from York'. Hmmm, that's only true in a very narrow sense.

 

[blacknight]

Couldn't agree more! NX has an attitude problem, in that it regards the ECML as part of it's wider business empire and not at all as a franchise which can be lost, won, given up etc. As a result the management and adminstration of the franchise is split between NXEC itself, group offices in London and Birmingham and even NXEA in Colchester! I believe the UK Trains HR Director has got the push (sorry, 'left to pursue other interests') - can anyone confirm this? Whether this is because she presided over such a fiasco, or because the restructuring hasn't gone far enough remains to be seen! When they won the franchise, staff were told it would 'continue to be run from York'. Hmmm, that's only true in a very narrow sense.

Think Government is just discovering what a bad tennant they have let the ECML too, care nothing for passengers service standards only saving the company. If National Express want to do us all a favour & save 146 million just hand back the franchise now, why else would they say franchises being dynamic & the like.
Mr Bowker treat to onboard catering jobs will be seen as direct challenge to the unions who are charged to defend their members as I see it only option being left is direct strike action I would suggest a midday Tuesday to midday Thursday for a maximum impact on business for loss of 2 days pay. Short term pain for long term gain