Nuneaton passengers unhappy at new Desiro service

[yorkie]

WEST COAST MAIN LINE: PROGRESS REPORT

1. Details of Desiro Train Services

The exact details of the Desiro train services to be operated between London, Nuneaton and Crewe will be a component part of the forthcoming West Midlands franchise specification consultation, which wil take place over the summer.

I can inform you that the Department is currently proposing that this would be a new hourly service operated by Desiro trains, from London Euston, calling at Watford Jn., Milton Keynes, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford and Crewe. Subject to further assessment of demand, timetabling and resources, it maybe possible to extend certain services to / from Liverpool. The journey time between London and Nuneaton will be approximately 93 minutes.

I have enclosed details of the timetable that waws used for appraisal purposes, although you should note that this does not represent a firm commitment by the Department. The final timetables will depend upon the West Midland franchise consultation and the outcome of negotiations between the Department, Network Rail, train operators and franchise bidders.

2. Trade-offs between stopping at Nuneaton and shortening times for London to Liverpool services

A detailed business case examination has taken place as to the best way in which full and efficient use can be made of the modernised West Coast Main Line and the limited rolling stock available. Because of the need to ensure value for money from the public investment, we have to look at the route as a whole. We estimate that our 2009 timetable, of which the removal of direct off-peak Virgin West Coast Nuneaton - London trains is an element, will have a net revenue effect on National Rail of approximately +£20m per annum.

In providing additional capacity for the growing markets of London-Birmingham, London-Manchester and London-Chester, as well as the proposed Desiro service, the 2009 timetable will also be able to accomodate the massive expected passenger growth over the coming decade. Our analysis suggests that this will lead to reduced road congestion and reduced emissions.

The business case document is commercially sensitive and making it available to the public may affect the Department's negotiations wih Virgin Rail Group and with prospective bidders for the West Midlands franchise. Nevertheless, I can confirm that there was a necessary trade-off between shorter off-peak journey times for Nuneaton and shorter off-peak journey times for Stafford, Runcorn and Liverpool.

To stop trains at Nuneaton would lead to a loss of approximately £1.0m worth of revenue from the latter destinations. The passengers picked up at Nuneaton would contribute only £0.15m in revenue and would be considerably less in number.

We estimate that between 10 and 15 standard class passengers currently board or alight each Pendolino train at Nuneaton. First class passengers number some two per departure. It has therefore been concluded that this level of business could be better catered for by the semi-fast Desiro service which still offers off-peak passengers a full (indeed it could be said "better") range of destinations.

I urge you to take an active part in the forthcoming West Midlands franchise consultation in order to keep up-to-date with any fine-tuning of the expected service pattern and I hope that you agree that the 2009 timetable is a great step forward for the West Coast Mainline, for the rail industry and for the UK economy.

There is a petition here:-

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/nuneaton-rail/index.html


I think Nuneaton has a surprisingly good deal at the moment with regards London connections, but to get to/from Watford or Milton Keynes it is only every 2 hours (this is proposed hourly), getting to Northampton would be tricky - would it be valid to go via Milton Keynes or would you take a long detour via Brum? as for Tamworth, forget it!

So yes I think the DfT are right in a way to say the new service is in many ways "better", it's just not better for people going to London, Runcorn or Liverpool. I doubt there will be a huge difference in journey time to Stafford or Crewe.

Overall the new Desiro service is positive, because stations like Tamworth, Lichfield, etc have missed out on a regular service for about 5 years now, and those that are still reasonably served, including Rugby and Nuneaton, are not served by the same trains making such journeys tricky.

 

[Bonemaster]

A whole 87 people are unhappy at the moment, come on seriously Nuneaton is a small town and there are many of a similar size that would kill for what they are going to get.

Lets not forget that Nuneaton is only a few miles from Coventry, which will benifit from more faster trains, after all there is only a finite amount of resource available and that has to be given to where it provides much better value for money, and with that some loose and some win

 

[Ascot]

Since when has Nuneaton been the biggest population to go to Runcorn or Liverpool? Easy to do one change at Crewe or Stafford, or even get one into Birmingham. Most people can now pop down to the next Village on the train with the new Stopper.

 

[87015]

Since when has Nuneaton been the biggest population to go to Runcorn or Liverpool? Easy to do one change at Crewe or Stafford, or even get one into Birmingham. Most people can now pop down to the next Village on the train with the new Stopper.

Nuneaton-London has been a decent, regular interval, intercity service since electrification. A 350 cannot offer an intercity standard of comfort (even if i'll be taking them over Pendos every time). Stafford is also loosing Pendo stops so passengers for the north will either need to change at Stafford and Crewe or stagger round on the 350 via Stoke. Don't forget Nuneaton is also the interchange for passengers to Leicester from the north.

Another example of WCML intermediate passengers, who have bared the brunt of blockades and general disruption being shafted so Branson can make a few more pounds with his fast pendos :x

 

[Ascot]

Nuneaton-London has been a decent, regular interval, intercity service since electrification. A 350 cannot offer an intercity standard of comfort (even if i'll be taking them over Pendos every time). Stafford is also loosing Pendo stops so passengers for the north will either need to change at Stafford and Crewe or stagger round on the 350 via Stoke. Don't forget Nuneaton is also the interchange for passengers to Leicester from the north.

Another example of WCML intermediate passengers, who have bared the brunt of blockades and general disruption being shafted so Branson can make a few more pounds with his fast pendos :x

Just a change at Stafford, AFAIK, having getting these services quite frequently and the new 08 draft TT, there is a New St to Liverpool with all calling at least Wolves, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool, so why change at Stafford and Crewe?

Leicester from the North? Is the MML+TPE down in the South East?

Why Benefit one town and lose the others when you can upset the odd Jo and give the Trent a service that isn't on a bus and is quite good, most Towns are served by frequent services to New St for one and to fill the gaps in they got an hrly service to all the places they will ever need, hardly see Granny and the Twins down to London Mid Day Mid week, affects a few people if that, not like Atherstone is the farmers choice for a market either.

Tamworth is probably busier than Nuneaton for Burton on Trent and all those other 2 penny Hamlets.

So Many ways you can look at i guess

 

[Techniquest]

I'm in two minds as to how good an idea this is.

Naturally, it would be a shame for Nuneaton to lose its regular WCML trains to a pitiful amount that is proposed.

At the same time, it would be nice for the other stops on the WCML to have a decent service again.

For me, it doesn't make that much difference. As I say, I'm in two minds.

 

[87015]

At the same time, it would be nice for the other stops on the WCML to have a decent service again.

The new all-shacks down the Trent is long overdue, it should never have been allowed to be withdrawn in the first place. But with the billions of pounds and years of disruption the WCML should be providing a much better service for all its users, not just long distance ones. With the Trent being four-tracked surely it is possible to provide both a bi-hourly or so Pendo to Nuneaton (and Tamworth for the matter) AND an hourly desiro local?

After all the money and disruption it is outrageous that a better service than what was provided before is not being provided.

And when I was doing too many Nuneaton (East Mids Rover) leaps there was always plenty of connections going to Leicester - a lot quicker than going via Sheffield.

 

[D306]

thats good in my eyes, as if I have to go upto Litchfield (Gran and Grandad are buried there), I can go direct by train, and not have to change train at New Street

 

[me123]

It seems to be a relatively good deal based on what I can see, but I don't live there so I can't really comment. But i can understand anger at the loss of the faster Pendo service.

 

[Keithk2t]

The original letter was to me from the DfT after I made a freedom of information request. Things are looking bad for keeping our virgin train service. We now have proper timetables and the 93 minutes to London is in fact 106 minutes. The virgin can do it in 56 minutes or 63 with 2 stops.

We are still fighting see www.nbrug.org.uk

It seems they are cutting the service as less people have used the service than other stations. This could very well be down to the line being closed about 60 days per year, the almost total lack of apex tickets and the 5 hour off peak ban on us returning on a saver. The last train we can take back before the rush hour is 14:17. We then need to wait until 19:17. No other station has such a massive restriction.

We have had another letter from the DFT which is on our website. http://greennuneaton.org.uk/nbrug_web/dft_ml.pdf

the change will add 40-50 minutes to our trips to London or Liverpool. people coming from leicester to liverpool will be expected to change at new street.

please help and write to local MPs.

 

[paul1609]

Personally I think the Dft are right. Intercity services have in recent times had far to many stops inserted in them. Extended journey times are part of the reason that London to Scotland services can no longer compete with Air.

 

[87015]

Personally I think the Dft are right. Intercity services have in recent times had far to many stops inserted in them. Extended journey times are part of the reason that London to Scotland services can no longer compete with Air.

Nonsense, for starters this has nothing to do with Euston-Glasgows, of which only a few have stopped at Nuneaton in recent years. Why should Nuneaton lost all intercity services when they are well used (in my experience rarely have I been the only joiner/leaper) and an hourly stop on Euston-Liverpools IMO should be retained. The Desiro service is a joke anyway - should be a Euston-Stafford and Manc-Brum semi so at least the good people of Stone, Congleton etc having been without a decent service for years would get one that goes where they want to go...

Should be made to cut the recovery time not station stops if they want to shave minutes off journeys, I still predict a complete sambles with this high speed timetable having standard 15-30 minute turnarounds - have they not seen the state of the WCML on a regualr basis, totally unworkable...

 

[Kneedown]

"Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley......"

I see no mention of Polesworth. Pardon my ignorance but is it still open?

 

[Mojo]

The TT I've seen suggests 1 train per day at Polesworth as the footbridge was removed meaning only Northbound services can call.

 

[Kneedown]

Aaaah, i see. It's sort of being run down then.

Thanks for that.

 

[Bonemaster]

Aaaah, i see. It's sort of being run down then.

Thanks for that.

Its closure was recommended in the West Midlands Route Utilisation Strategy

 

[Metroland]

Personally I think the Dft are right. Intercity services have in recent times had far to many stops inserted in them. Extended journey times are part of the reason that London to Scotland services can no longer compete with Air.

Well for once Paul, we agree.

Yes the idea was to cut out the intermediate stops and speed up the services to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow - which are much more important than Nuneaton.

 

[Kneedown]

Its closure was recommended in the West Midlands Route Utilisation Strategy

It's not easy to close a station though. Thats why Peartree, just south of Derby is still open, despite the fact it's hardly ever used, if at all nowadays. There used to be one diehard get off there in the morning, but i think even he doesn't bother now.

 

[AlexS]

Nuneaton for a town of it's size has always had a cracking train service - it never seems to be very busy at all.

 

[djw1981]

Stopping patterns need reviewing on most services because they are based on 20-30 (or more) year old patterns of travel, and sometimes on the needs of the railway - loco changes as you move between sectors etc.

This does create a difficult balance because small towns with good trabnsport links will/can have their house prices higher than the surrounding area because of their good london connections. IIRC Retford is higher than the local area and this is in part linked to the fact that you can commute to London via GNER. No one likes their service to change or get slower, and the maintenance of some peak time calls may be necessary, but Nuneaton still will have a very good connection to London compared to similar sized towns a similar distance from london.

 

[Metroland]

There are a number of areas on the rail network where intermediate stations with a good service make very little sense and just get in the way of better loaded long distance trains. A good example is between Oxford and Didcot, where the hourly stopping service soaks up several long distance train paths for the sake of less than 10 people getting on at Culham and Appleford.

It just makes more sense to run more, faster, trains between large cities from the railways point of view which are extremely completive with road and air - which incidentally saw a 1.4% drop in domestic passengers last year, indeed Liverpool has now lost its London air service, and Leeds and Durham Tees Valley are about to.

Details of the 2009 WCML timetable are here:

Euston to Manchester

• Services operate every 20 mins throughout the day.
• The xx00 ex London Euston services call at Stoke, Macclesfield and Stockport.
• The xx20 ex London Euston services call at Milton Keynes Central, Stoke and Stockport.
• The xx40 ex London Euston services call at Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport.
• The xx15 ex Manchester Picc services call at Stockport, Stoke and Milton Keynes Central.
• The xx35 ex Manchester Picc services call at Stockport, Macclesfield and Stoke.
• The xx55 ex Manchester Picc services call at Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe.
• Typical journey times are 2hrs 5 mins from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly with the fastest train completing the journey in 1hr 58 mins.

Euston to Liverpool

• Services to operate hourly throughout the day at xx07 from Euston and at xx48 from Liverpool. Additional trains operate at 1733 and 1833 from London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street and at 0527, 0605 and 0700 from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston.
• A new earlier train will operate from Euston to Liverpool Lime St at 0535 and the last train will be at 2107.
• A new late train will operate from Liverpool Lime St to London Euston departing at 2048 calling at Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Lichfield, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford.
• Typical journey times are 2hrs 7 mins from Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston with the fastest train taking 2hrs 1 min. The fast “headline” train from Liverpool will be the 0700 departure which will call at Runcorn only.
• The standard calling pattern is at Stafford and Runcorn only.
• The fast “headline” train from Manchester will be the 0700 departure which will call at Stockport only

Euston to Chester / Holyhead

• All services to be operated by class 221 Voyagers. An hourly service operates throughout the day between Euston and Chester calling at Milton Keynes Central and Crewe only. Typical journey times between London Euston and Chester are 2hrs.
• Holyhead services are generally formed of 2 x Voyagers between London Euston and Chester where the 1st set goes forward to Holyhead.
• Through services to / from North Wales operate at the following times:
447 Holyhead to London Euston
0550 Holyhead to London Euston
0650 Holyhead to London Euston
0850 Holyhead to London Euston
1217 Bangor to London Euston
1350 Holyhead to London Euston
2017 Bangor to Birmingham New St
0530 Birmingham New St to Holyhead
0810 London Euston to Bangor
0910 London Euston to Holyhead
1610 London Euston to Bangor
1710 London Euston to Holyhead
1810 London Euston to Holyhead
1910 London Euston to Holyhead

Euston – Birmingham – Wolverhampton

• A 20 minute frequency throughout the day between Euston and Birmingham, with one train an hour running through to Wolverhampton.
• Typical off peak journey times are 1hr 22 mins from Birmingham New Street to London Euston and 1hr 47 mins from Wolverhampton to London Euston.
• A fast 0704 Wolverhampton to London Euston service is to operate calling at Sandwell and Dudley and Birmingham New St only. This service will run express from Birmingham New St to London Euston in 1hr 12 mins.
• A fast 0741 Birmingham International to London Euston service also operates calling at Coventry only.
• Off peak all services call at Birmingham International and Coventry - with services calling at either Rugby, Milton Keynes Central and Watford Junction to give Birmingham New Street a clockface hourly service to each.
• The 0510 and 0530 Birmingham – Euston and 2223 and 2343 Euston – Wolverhampton to be operated by class 221 Voyagers to avoid diesel hauling when services are diverted via Nuneaton.
• The 0510 Birmingham New St to London Euston and 2343 Euston – Birmingham services to be routed via Nuneaton.

Euston – Preston / Carlisle / Glasgow / Edinburgh

• 13 Glasgow to Euston services and 13 Euston to Glasgow services operate. No Euston to Edinburgh service operates in either direction.
• The typical end-to-end journey time will be 4hrs 26 mins.
• The fastest train of the day is the 1630 Euston – Glasgow which completes the journey in 4hrs 10 mins. It is planned that this service will call at Preston only.
• An hourly service will operate throughout the day between London Euston and Preston with some additional services in the peaks. The fastest journey time is 2hrs.
• Trains depart from London Euston at xx30 past each hour with additional Euston – Glasgow trains in the evening peak at 1657 and 1757.
• The 1030,1230 and 1430 services from London Euston terminate at Lancaster.
• The majority of services run non stop between London Euston and Warrington Bank Quay, then call at Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme or Penrith (generally alternate services call at one or the other), Carlisle then Glasgow Central.
• The 1430 Euston – Lancaster and 1737 Lancaster – Euston to be operated by class 221 Voyagers.
• Two northbound and one southbound service to call at Lockerbie.
• In the morning peak there is an 0535 departure from Lancaster (Class 221 Super Voyager) which couples to the 0447 Holyhead – Euston at Crewe.
• This is followed by a 0430 Glasgow – Euston service calling at Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan and Warrington, then non stop to Euston.

Trent Valley

• Virgin West Coast services will call at Lichfield, Tamworth and Nuneaton only during the morning and evening peaks, and during the evening when Trent Valley local services do not operate.
• In between, an hourly London Euston to Crewe “West Midlands Franchise” class 350 “Desiro” stopping service will operate.
• Nuneaton is served by “Desiros” only during the off peak.
• Nuneaton calling VWC trains are:
04.55 Manchester Picc – London Euston
05.55 Manchester Picc – London Euston
04.47 Holyhead – London Euston
07.35 Manchester Picc – London Euston
19.48 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
20.48 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
17.10 London Euston – Holyhead
18.10 London Euston – Holyhead
19.07 London Euston – Liverpool Lime St
20.07 London Euston – Liverpool Lime St
21.07 London Euston – Liverpool Lime St
22.00 London Euston – Manchester Picc
• Lichfield and Tamworth calling VWC trains are:
05.34 Preston – London Euston
06.05 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
20.48 Liverpool Lime St – London Euston
16.57 London Euston – Glasgow Central
17.57 London Euston – Glasgow Central
20.30 London Euston – Preston
22:00 London Euston – Manchester Picc

 

[Meld]

Maybe not commercially viable but if LM were to operate a hourly through service Northampton - Crewe on the 30mins opposite the current Birmingham Services. Offering connections at both Rugby and Crewe into VWC services ???

 

[djw1981]

I can see why Manchester - London every 20 minutes is useful, but does Stockport need a 20 minute frequency? Could one of these not stop at Nuneaton without too much loss of time?

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

no point not stopping at stockport due to speed restrictions through the station.
the birmingham - manchester semi-fast service wouldn't fit either i don't think due to pathing limitations between macclesfield and stoke. iirc it's double track all the way with quite long signalling sections.
i doubt there's capacity at man picc anyway. it seems to be on the verge of exploding.
so the only viable solution is additional calls at nuneaton with a slower stopping pattern - don't see why it couldn't be made an infrequent N.Wales / Liv stop during the daytime though

 

[Guinness]

I can see why Manchester - London every 20 minutes is useful, but does Stockport need a 20 minute frequency? Could one of these not stop at Nuneaton without too much loss of time?

Stockport is quite a big town, they're currently pushing for proposal for City Status and there are plenty of connections such as the Mid-Cheshire Line to Nantwich/Chester and TPE connections which save having to waste 30 minutes changing at Piccadilly. Also with the M60 in close proximity it makes it catchment area quite large, so it warrants a 20 minute frequency IMHO.

Not stopping at Stockport will only saves a 3/4 minutes at most, but you would lose a lot of revenue from passengers boarding, as mentioned previously because of it's small line speed, 15mph on Platform 1 and 20mph on other lines would make it pointless. It's a similar situation at Stoke as well.

 

[ChrisCooper]

The only real problem with removing a lot of VWC services from Nuneaton is that does provide a useful link onto the WCML from the East Midlands etc, and in that respect must take some load of New Street, aswell as being a much more favorable place for changing trains. It possibly also takes load off the Southern Trans Pennine route. For my part, I've used Nuneaton quite a few times when travelling from Loughborough to the North West, including Liverpool, Lancaster and Crewe. Can't say it will effect me now though, since to be quite honest I'd use the various alternative routes rarther than Virgin anyway (or at least cut down Virgin milage).

 

[Keithk2t]

Currently stockport has 404,000 journeys to or from London via Virgin (2 trains per hour).
Wilsmlow has just 35,000 as very few direct trains stop and its only 6 miles to Stockport.
Nuneaton has 153,000 to London which is about 100,000 less than would be expected given the size of the town and distance to London.
Over all Virgin train service may carry 160,000 to 180,000 south from Nuneaton and maybe 100,000 to 160,000 Northwards via Virgin trains.
The footfall at Nuneaton is 1,040,000 of which 690,000 start or end journeys at the station and 315,000 change.

The change totally trashes north bound travel. The slow train would take 1 hour 21 to get to crewe compared to 36 minutes if the Manchester Crewe london stopped at Nuneaton.

The stop at Wilmslow is clearly deisgned to divert plane users to the train. It will also divert some from boarding at stockport.

Passenegers have been managed off the existing london-Liverpool service which makes it impossible to get apex tickest at useful times. Stopping the 3rd mancester train at Nuneaton would seem a great soultion. It would provide good links to Coventry and Leicester to manchester users as well as not bab changes for liverpool and North wales.

 

[evil_hippo]

My preference between a slower desiro with lots of room and a faster pendolino that's packed - as, inevitably, one train an hour to a place that ought to have two will be.

Given the cramped nature, lack of natural light, and inevitable crowding of pendolinos, I cannot see how a pendolino can be seen as better quality than a desiro. Bear in mind the crowding puts most passengers off attempting to reach the admittedly decent catering facilities on pendolinos. The exception to this is first class travel, which will be of markedly poorer quality.

If it is really necessary that Manchester get the extra train per hour, rather than Liverpool, which seems far more deserving, than a far faster service seems a sensible compensation, and also, will balance loadings, as the crowded one train per hour to Liverpool will not be required to bear the demand for additional stations, whereas the Manchester services, which will see a boost in capacity, will bear intermediate demand far more ably.

The one thing I would have liked to see is Tamworth calls on Glasgow services, to connect with voyagers for places such as Bristol that no longer have a direct link with the West Coast main line, but journey times aside, this would be unlikely to happen as at current service levels, this would potentially unbalance loadings by putting more passengers onto the popular Glasgow to London pendolinos.

 

[Keithk2t]

Most Nuneaton train users would not be unhappy with Desiros but are unhappy with how they are being timetabled. The Desiros on the Trent Valley will be very useful as they give us a hourly train to other local towns on the route. They however are not "semi-fast". The 1 hour to London in a Virgin become 1 hour 47 minutes including a 10 minute wait at Northampton. They also stop at Crewe having gone the long way via Stoke. The timings north from Nuneaton fail to provide good connections. The original timetable had then running direct to Liverpool.

Things could get a lot better when/if they get 125mph versions that could take the direct line to Euston and run North to Manchester or Liverpool. In the interim a few Virgins should stop at Nuneaton. We had got the DfT to accept that the 8:48 Liverpool to Euston should stop at Nuneaton but this has been vetoed by Virgin. The county Council has sent the DfT a notice of Legal action.

www.nbrug.org.uk

 

[Mintona]

Crewe really seems to have picked up a raw deal here, hourly to London and hourly to Manchester, and North Wales coast trains, but seems to be it!
It is such a big interchange for people from Derby/Uttoxeter/Stoke/Shrewsbury/Hereford and South Wales/Chester and North Wales for people travelling to the north west, surely it makes sense to stop the Glasgow trains there? Now they will have to change at Crewe and Warrington, though there won't be a direct train from Crewe to Warrington either.