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NR Train Intrigue

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BestWestern

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Hi all,

Had a rare glimpse at the inside of the NMR HST set at Bristol this evening, sat on the Up Through with all the interior lighting on. A couple of lounge/kitchen/accomodation cars, some bizarre-looking replacement coach seating in what looked like dirt proof vinyl, plus the business stuff full of James Bond-esque elctrical boxes and gizmos, inclduing the pantograph coach. Does anybody have a detailed answer as to exactly what goes on in there, and on NR's other stock? I presume the NMT takes measurements of alignment etc, but what is the panto for? Is this the same gear that takes footage of the track at high speed and scans it for defects?

Bristol also regularly sees the Class 31-hauled mixed MK1 & MK2 sets, the purpose of which is also slightly mysterious! Anybody know?! I understand that there is a mildly frightening-looking grey tubular vehicle (it's Bond again), which has a half-black coach either side of it, which measures clearances in tunnels I believe?

Most bizarre of all would have to be the Class 150-based unit, which presumably has less gear on board (and doesn't contain a lounge car I'd guess!). What, we have to wonder, does this creation do?

And out of curiosity, how many blokes crew these things? There were two lounge cars in this HST, out of only about five cars in total, so presumably they 'live' on it while it's out and about; how long are they on board it for? Fascinating stuff! :)
 
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ainsworth74

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We have someone on here who works on these trains (Hydro his name would be) so when he sees this I think you can expect some pretty good answers. In the meantime here's my stab at answering some of your questions!

The NMT has a pantograph to enable it to check the condition of the OHLE when it travels on wired routes. The NMT records all kinds of things from track condition and cant, to the interatction of the pantograph with the wires and the wheels with the rails.

As far as I know the other loco-hauled sets do generally the same things as the NMT but don't have quite as much in the way of fancy James Bond esque gizmos.

The 150 based unit is used on more minor routes and again generally is used to assess the state of the track, I also have a feeling it has 3rd rail shoe gear to enable it to check the state of the conductor rail but I could be wrong on that part.
 

Aictos

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Hi all,

I understand that there is a mildly frightening-looking grey tubular vehicle (it's Bond again), which has a half-black coach either side of it, which measures clearances in tunnels I believe?

Hydro can confirm this himself but from what I understand and from what I've been told, that vehicle does indeed check clearances in tunnels.
 

DarloRich

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I think you will find that the train runs into a secret underground lair (inside Box tunnel) where evil hencemen plot how to destroy the rail network!
 

ainsworth74

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I think you will find that the train runs into a secret underground lair (inside Box tunnel) where evil hencemen plot how to destroy the rail network!

It's not Box tunnel because that's where the MoD keep the strategic reserve of steam locomotives and rolling stock in case of nuclear war or some other apocalyptic catastrophe ;)
 

Wyvern

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"Twenty Five Years of Railway Research" by Colin Marsden is a useful book with pictures. Or there's the www.traintesting.com website.

The basics are all there - between then and now most changes have been in the nature of detail improvements,particularly as new instrumentation comes on the market.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hydro can confirm this himself but from what I understand and from what I've been told, that vehicle does indeed check clearances in tunnels.

Its Sunday name would be a "Structure Gauging Train"

Some info here : http://www.old-dalby.com/SGT.htm

Also Serco have a page about it all:

http://www.serco.com/markets/transport/railoperations.asp

i_RailOps_gauging_tcm3-10887.jpg


Incidentally the names "Mentor" and "Iris" go back to those exciting days in Derby.
 

DarloRich

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It's not Box tunnel because that's where the MoD keep the strategic reserve of steam locomotives and rolling stock in case of nuclear war or some other apocalyptic catastrophe ;)

ah but that is what they WANT you to think.

the strategic reserve is ACTUALLY stored at the NRM and at so called "preserved" railways around the country. All of these locos are actually operational and ready to be called upon at a moments notice. How else do you explain all of the preserved class 37's! :D:D:D:D
 

tempests1

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Hi all,

Had a rare glimpse at the inside of the NMR HST set at Bristol this evening, sat on the Up Through with all the interior lighting on. A couple of lounge/kitchen/accomodation cars, some bizarre-looking replacement coach seating in what looked like dirt proof vinyl, plus the business stuff full of James Bond-esque elctrical boxes and gizmos, inclduing the pantograph coach. Does anybody have a detailed answer as to exactly what goes on in there, and on NR's other stock? I presume the NMT takes measurements of alignment etc, but what is the panto for? Is this the same gear that takes footage of the track at high speed and scans it for defects?

Bristol also regularly sees the Class 31-hauled mixed MK1 & MK2 sets, the purpose of which is also slightly mysterious! Anybody know?! I understand that there is a mildly frightening-looking grey tubular vehicle (it's Bond again), which has a half-black coach either side of it, which measures clearances in tunnels I believe?

Most bizarre of all would have to be the Class 150-based unit, which presumably has less gear on board (and doesn't contain a lounge car I'd guess!). What, we have to wonder, does this creation do?

And out of curiosity, how many blokes crew these things? There were two lounge cars in this HST, out of only about five cars in total, so presumably they 'live' on it while it's out and about; how long are they on board it for? Fascinating stuff! :)

There was an interesting piece about the NWR test trains in last month issue of Railway Illustrated. All the staff on-board are based at Derby they work Mon to Fri and are away from home, they don't sleep on the train and stay in hotels.
 

Hydro

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Hi all,

Had a rare glimpse at the inside of the NMR HST set at Bristol this evening, sat on the Up Through with all the interior lighting on. A couple of lounge/kitchen/accomodation cars, some bizarre-looking replacement coach seating in what looked like dirt proof vinyl, plus the business stuff full of James Bond-esque elctrical boxes and gizmos, inclduing the pantograph coach. Does anybody have a detailed answer as to exactly what goes on in there, and on NR's other stock? I presume the NMT takes measurements of alignment etc, but what is the panto for? Is this the same gear that takes footage of the track at high speed and scans it for defects?

Bristol also regularly sees the Class 31-hauled mixed MK1 & MK2 sets, the purpose of which is also slightly mysterious! Anybody know?! I understand that there is a mildly frightening-looking grey tubular vehicle (it's Bond again), which has a half-black coach either side of it, which measures clearances in tunnels I believe?

Most bizarre of all would have to be the Class 150-based unit, which presumably has less gear on board (and doesn't contain a lounge car I'd guess!). What, we have to wonder, does this creation do?

And out of curiosity, how many blokes crew these things? There were two lounge cars in this HST, out of only about five cars in total, so presumably they 'live' on it while it's out and about; how long are they on board it for? Fascinating stuff! :)



Where to start....I could write reams about this.

NMT: Crew is usually two or three depending on the workload. Two vehicles do the actual test work, the other three are conference, messing and generator vehicles. The test vehicles are the Production Vehicle, which houses two track geometry systems (Trackline 2 and LaserRail3000 using lasers and cameras to measure gauge and alignment and Lateral Vertical Displacement Transducers (LVDT) to measure bogie movement; this stuff is underneath the vehicle and bogie mounted) which do all the track geometry systems, and a couple of measurement systems for the 6ft clearance etc. The computers for all these are all housed in the two racks at either end inside the vehicle, with the operators workstations in the middle. The second vehicle is Development Vehicle. This houses the instrumented pantograph (rarely used) and the Fraunhofer non-contact OLE laser measurement system, and wire wear OLE kit. It's also, as the name suggests, the test bed vehicle for any new measurement kit; currently it sports an experimental Plain Line Pattern Recognition (PLPR) track video inspection set up, which is being tested. The power cars also have forward facing HD video recording equipment.

The hauled stock: If you see a 31 + 2 Mk1's plus a DBSO, chances are it's an Ultrasonic working. There are three complete rakes, UTU 2, 3 and 4. These scoot around using retractable wheeled probes that glide along the railhead using ultrasound to detect internal rail flaws. These test at 30mph, normally during the night due to the slow speed. The vehicles are a genny van for power, an instrumentation coach housing the computers and retractable probes, and the DBSO has messing facilities.

The ominous "grey tube" train is the SGT, structure gauging train. It used to use a white light radiating system to determine clearances between the train in relation to the rails, and any lineside structures. The white light system is now a secondary system, the primary is a radiating laser system mounted in a "dustbin" at the front of the Optical Car (the odd cylindrical vehicle). The other vehicles are a loco, genny coach, instrumentation coach and a DBSO with messing facilities. The DBSO and a pair of dedicated 31's have infra red lamps and cameras to record forward facing video at night.

Mark 2 vehicles are a few things. The Track Recording Coach (999550) is a Mark 2 vehicle used for track geometry recording on primarily the Southern region. It runs in a semi fixed rake of Mk1 and 2 vehicles, normally comprising a genny van, TRC, Electrification Measurement Vehicle (EMV) which uses non-contact laser kit to measure both conductor rail and OLE geometry, and normally a Radio Survey Coach (RSC) plus a messing vehicle. The usual traction is the pair of 73's (107 and 138). The strange contraption in the headcode box of 138 is a thermal imaging camera, designed to work in conjunction with the EMV to take thermal snapshots of any fault area of Conductor Rail Equipment (CRE). This is currently non-operational.

The Sprinter unit, the TRU 950001, is primarily a track geometry unit. It can also survey the formation underneath the track using two Ground Penetrating Radar units, the wear on the rails using a laser based KLD rail profiling unit, complete video recording in HD and radio surveys. It is laden with measuring kit and is cramped inside. Until recently it was the absolute workhorse of the fleet, as it can go just about anywhere, being a Sprinter. Currently OOS due to geometry equipment failure.

Track Inspection Coach (TIC), 999508, is the unusual Mk1 inspection saloon with the recessed windows. It runs in a loco hauled formation as standard hauled stock, it is not propelled, nor can it ever be again. It is only a track geometry measurement coach.

TRC, TRU and TIC use the same primary geometry system to measure the geometry. A laser unit called "Optel" which measures the gauge and alignment of the rails, and a system of accelerometers, gyroscopes and LVDT's (lateral and vertical displacement transducers) to measure the movement of the bogie as it passes over the track. It then translates the movement via signal conditioning and filtering into a visual representation like a seismograph called a trace. This indicates what type of track faults are present plus their severity based on the movement and distance of the measurement equipment on the bogie.

The RSC's, radio survey coaches, use telecomms equipment to test range and signal strengths of NRN, CSR and GSMR comms equipment. There are three coaches, 1, 2 and 3. 1 and 2 are standard, and 3 is the dedicated GSMR project test vehicle. Radio survey equipment is also fitted to the NMT and Track Recording Unit (950001, the Sprinter).

Mentor is the Mk1 vehicle with flat roof, observation dome and pantograph. It uses an instrumented pantograph to analyse and measure the forces and dynamics of a pantograph at speed on OLE, and the effect on the OLE. It has a Brecknell Willis high speed pantograph at one end only. It formerly also had a Stone Faively pan at the opposite end, but this was removed.

All loco hauled rakes can be run with any type of available loco, with or without brake force vehicles (ex GatEx stock, still standard inside) depending on required running speed, and in full multiple push pull; all stock is blue star through wired. Most measurement vehicles include messing facilities, a kitchen type set up. The NMT has the worst (a microwave), and the DBSO's have the best (hotplates and ovens). Somewhere in the middle lies the TRU and a couple of messing Mk2's for the TRC rake.

There is also an experimental MPV vehicle, used in trials for HD video surveying and patrolling of complex S&C layouts, to avoid the need for patrollers to inspect in dangerous station throats or in blocks disrupting traffic. This is not in use currently, pending trials results. It also carries a variant of the TrackLine 2 geometry system as seen on NMT.

Crew. Trains normally operate with a crew of two or three. Sometimes on complicated runs, the TRU and TRC can run with four due to the workload of reporting faults, operating the various equipment and monitoring the data output. The crews live and work away from home frequently. They are all based at Derby, and depending on the train, can be away for up to two weeks. The NMT crews stay away the least, maybe one, two or three nights a week, and everyone else can be anything from one or two to nearly two weeks. The crews stay in hotels. They used to live on the trains, but no longer. The trains primarily work Monday - Friday, but some shifts, especially Scotland runs will include a weekend.

I have a few interior pics of the vehicles in my sig link.
 
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deltic1989

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ah but that is what they WANT you to think.

the strategic reserve is ACTUALLY stored at the NRM and at so called "preserved" railways around the country. All of these locos are actually operational and ready to be called upon at a moments notice. How else do you explain all of the preserved class 37's! :D:D:D:D

yes but with electromagnetic fallout after a nuclear blast wouldnt a 37 with it being diesel-electric be useless as the traction motors would be (struggleing for a better word) screwed?
 

ChrisCooper

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yes but with electromagnetic fallout after a nuclear blast wouldnt a 37 with it being diesel-electric be useless as the traction motors would be (struggleing for a better word) screwed?

I think the effects of EMP on vehicles is heavily overrated. Modern electronics are at a fair risk, but heavy duty electrical systems should be fine. The biggest problems for the railways would be signalling and communication problems. Even block bells and telegraphs might fail. You'd be back to time interval (at low speeds, driving on sight) or pilot working (person goes out with train, another train doesn't follow until they return). Setting up basic communication would probably not take that long though, training people to use it would probably be the hardest part (how many people know things like morse, and how many signallers even know block bell codes now?).
It's actually something the strategic reserve people never seem to cover, ok an EMP has knocked out all modern traction so suddenly the steam locos come out of hiding, but they still can't be signalled, points can't be set other than manually etc.
 

ainsworth74

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I told you when Hydro saw this thread you would get a good answer :lol:

Very interesting stuff Hydro thanks :)
 

swt_passenger

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Am I remembering correctly from somewhere or other that some of the NMT coaches are unbraked, so that the measurements taken by their 'bogie mounted' equipment isn't affected so much?

Does this mean that some of the other coaches are needed in the train for brake force anyway?
 

Hydro

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Am I remembering correctly from somewhere or other that some of the NMT coaches are unbraked, so that the measurements taken by their 'bogie mounted' equipment isn't affected so much?

Does this mean that some of the other coaches are needed in the train for brake force anyway?

Yes, the NMT currently has a max speed of 110mph due to this. 125mph acceptance is ongoing. It has to run as a 2 + 5 to travel at it's max speed, any less and restrictions apply.

Just re-read my first post, and a little brain fart has occurred. Trackline 2 is a geometry system on Development Vehicle, I recall, and the second system on Production is in fact TrackSys.

That Serco page is well out of date. For a start, Serco do not have anything to do with the trains any more. The crews and vehicles went to NR, and last year the drivers went to DBS, and RVEL took the fitters. IRIS II is also long gone, sold into preservation.
 
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ChrisCooper

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Yes, the NMT currently has a max speed of 110mph due to this. 125mph acceptance is ongoing. It has to run as a 2 + 5 to travel at it's max speed, any less and restrictions apply.

Just re-read my first post, and a little brain fart has occurred. Trackline 2 is a geometry system on Development Vehicle, I recall, and the second system on Production is in fact TrackSys.

All HSTs have to run as 2+5 minimum or else speed restrictions apply. Short formed loco hauled sets (6 or less vehicles with one loco, up to 10 vehicles with 2 locos) also have restrictions, roughly 10mph below line speed, less for very short trains or light locos. Basically the braking power-weight ratio of locos and powercars is less than that of coaches.
 

Hydro

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All HSTs have to run as 2+5 minimum or else speed restrictions apply. Short formed loco hauled sets (6 or less vehicles with one loco, up to 10 vehicles with 2 locos) also have restrictions, roughly 10mph below line speed, less for very short trains or light locos. Basically the braking power-weight ratio of locos and powercars is less than that of coaches.

Speed limits for the fleet are generally as follows:

The TRU runs at 5mph below line speed up to a max of 75mph. It also has an unbraked axle and actually has brake pressure set higher than a standard Sprinter to compensate.

NMT is maximum 110mph if 2 + 5, less if short formed.

UTU's are 75mph maximum when on transit moves, 30mph when recording. One of them used to be 60mph max, but I think work has been completed to allow 75mph transit runs.

SGT is 75mph transit, 50mph when recording.

All hauled stock is rated for 100mph, on B4 bogies, maximum speed travelled is 90mph due to loco restrictions in long formation (five vehicles minimum, normally between two engines in push pull), or 75mph in short formation (anything less than five). They will adhere to the 10mph under linespeed up to their max rated speed.
 

BestWestern

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Wow, detailed stuff! Thanks for taking the time to put that together, many questions answered. It's a little sad that the Crew don't 'live' on board any more though, brings a sort of romantic rose-tinted image to mind! Though I'm sure said Crews possibly wouldn't agree! :D

Thanks again :)

A little nerdy this, but am I right in thinking there is a former SR 'Slammer' trailer car in use in one of those rakes?! The post-refurb hopper vented windows gave it away! :D It was stabled in Bristol a week or so ago, seemingly painted a slightly darker shade of yellow than the rest of the train (I did say I was being nerdy!).
 
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Hydro

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It's a little sad that the Crew don't 'live' on board any more though, brings a sort of romantic rose-tinted image to mind! Though I'm sure said Crews possibly wouldn't agree! :D

The overnight allowance apparently used to be quite generous for staying on the train, so not many minded that much. It's kind of preferable to the hotel system in some ways, you are instantly at work, no messing around with taxis to the stabling point which meant longer in bed. Some of the shifts are pretty long and taxing so the less faffing at the start and end is quite a boon. Of course, it's not as flexible as the hotel, you can't just jump off and go for a walk or visit the local area. It's nice to screw the train down, go to the hotel and have someone cook your dinner for you then get your head down in a double bed. Each has it's pros and cons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A little nerdy this, but am I right in thinking there is a former SR 'Slammer' trailer car in use in one of those rakes?! The post-refurb hopper vented windows gave it away! :D It was stabled in Bristol a week or so ago, seemingly painted a slightly darker shade of yellow than the rest of the train (I did say I was being nerdy!).


The UTU instrumentation vehicles are former 4REP driving motor vehicles (though one may just be a converted standard EMU motor coach). Check the bogies out, they are SR Mk6 (?) heavy duty motor bogies.

There are oddly two shades of yellow on the fleet at the moment, a darker "warning panel" shade, and a lighter canary shade. I can only imagine one was cheaper than the other when the first lot ran out.
 

BestWestern

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The UTU instrumentation vehicles are former 4REP driving motor vehicles (though one may just be a converted standard EMU motor coach). Check the bogies out, they are SR Mk6 (?) heavy duty motor bogies.

There are oddly two shades of yellow on the fleet at the moment, a darker "warning panel" shade, and a lighter canary shade. I can only imagine one was cheaper than the other when the first lot ran out.

Yep, I think that's the one, certainly appeared to be riding on motor bogies. Last question! The DBSO's, do they drive or are the cabs just stripped out??
 

Hydro

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They certainly drive, the TDM has been stripped out and blue star jumpers and control air pipes fitted. Inside, they have half the coach dedicated to a generator set, and the other half a seating area, kitchen with cooker and fridge, and a small shower compartment. Photo link below in my sig has some photos of the DBSO cabs, showing the new style power controllers and standard of refit.
 

Hydro

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I'd never noticed the clock before! The image is flipped :)

It is a standard Yale type lock, with a special key used to open it. It's never locked in service, in fact that door and the drivers door are frequently kept open so crew can communicate with the driver easily and gain access to the cab. It's only really shut and locked when securing the train.
 

Eng274

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I must echo others' sentiments, that was a fascinating insight into these NR trains Hydro.

While I'm here maybe you'd know the answer to this sighting which has intrigued me for a few years. In 2007/8 I lived near the Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk line, and could see fairly clearly what went past. One night what I suspect was a NR went past, but underneath there was a bright light going on, it could have been sparks from a railhead grinder or some sort of optical (using light) measurement kit, can you or indeed anyone else, clarify what it actually was?
 

Hydro

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All measurement vehicles are equipped with lighting on the underframes or side. This is to facilitate spotting of mileposts in poor light, or at night. Why?

The measurement systems need to be synchronised to the mileage of the line it is recording. All systems currently run using templates called Route Setting Tapes. There are, in laymans terms, files written in notepad that show at what mileages features of track change such as route boundaries, engineers line reference changes, stations, junctions, track category, at what points the measurement equipment needs to turn on or off, and so on. You select the mileage of where you are to start after loading the correct RST into the geometry computer, and synchronise the system by pressing a button when you pass that particular milepost. Every quarter of a mile, the system audibly sounds when it thinks it should be passing a post (using two bogie mounted tachometers), and you check if it's correct. If not, you can resync the system to the next post. This ensures accurate reporting of the track defects found as the system can keep track of the mileage if you synchronise to the correct post.

UTU's use the same system to keep a track of what mileages they have tested, and where any rail defects are located.
 

Wyvern

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Route Setting Tapes? Are they really tapes or is this name a hangover from the old days?

Thanks for your interesting and informative replies. The big change it seems is the use of lasers. We had them but for thing like laser guidance and low frequency work such as measuring bridge deflections. Probably the higher frequency usage need the developments of modern electronics such as sophisticated ADCs.

Back in the beginning in the 'sixties, measurements were made using multi channel recorders with miniature string galvanometers. The traces on the UV paper had to be digitised manually for input into the ICT computer.

After a while we got PDP-8s initially producing 8 hole paper tape. Then we got big 1 inch reel to reel analogue tape machines, and also Redcor systems, but we kept the UV recorders for a visual check.
 

Hydro

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It's a hangover from the old days from the use of magnetic tapes, I've heard of the punched hole systems from the old Research boys. The computer files used nowadays are just modified digitisations of the old magnetic tapes.

It's fascinating seeing just how things have changed (and how some things really have stayed the same!) over the years. The principles all remain the same, it's really just the equipment that changes but it all does the same job as it did thirty years ago.

There is a drive to move away from RST's, and use a GPS map based system called RTPS that is literally a railway satnav to run the systems semi-autonomously. All vehicles are fitted with RTPS, but it's not mature enough to rely on it for accurate recording and management of the test systems. We use it as more of a location and route verifier, and to synchonise in a pinch if there are no mileposts available (more common than you think, especially on freight lines).
 
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