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NR Station Design Blueprint

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WatcherZero

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Network Rail is reportedly compiling forecasts of passenger congestion at all its stations along with a series of generic improvements to platforms and concourses that can be made to stations to increase capacity in the short, medium and long term. Also reportedly working on generic station designs for new stations.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=25446


Question is will such a generic strategy (essentially a list of if>then improvements) really work?
Will a slate of generic station designs save money? and is the danger that it leads to a generation of bland identikit station designs?
 
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Invincibles

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The idea seems sensible enough, but no doubt will not save enough in terms of consultancy fees to really make a difference.

People moan about the stations on the WCML that all seem to be identical, but if there is a good design then there is no reason not to adopt it across the network.

I would like to see more stations with exits and entrances in different places, maybe even going the whole way and having arrivals halls as well as departures (be much easier to manage traffic if drop off and pick up were on different roads) connections could be made using the arrivals "footbridge". I actually wonder whether this would have been a good solution for Salford Crescent (but that is a different thread)

Differences between stations are good, they are important to give an area character, but they can be achieved in many ways. A generic structure does not prohibit that.
 

At_traction

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I would like to see more stations with exits and entrances in different places, maybe even going the whole way and having arrivals halls as well as departures (be much easier to manage traffic if drop off and pick up were on different roads) connections could be made using the arrivals "footbridge".

Depends on how far apart and how (in)visible from each other these are. As so vividly pointed out in the "Hidden stations" thread, even a single entrance can be a pain to find (even if the station itself is apparently visible), not to mention if the entrance found by a casual user happens to be for exit only, with the entrance on the other side of the building or around the corner.

But why different entrances and exits? Unless they really give more value to the layout and traffic flows than they distract in terms of loss of the orientation and the extra effort to really keep the entrances for in/out uses (gates?), then... I'd guess that the space used for different halls would be more effectively used if the fluctuating in/out traffic volumes could both utilize the whole space reserved for the separate halls. If needed, flexible and easily removable "tape barriers" á la airports could be used to discriminate the different traffic flows.

If the pick-up and drop-off traffic use the same roads after pulling off the respective entrances and both loading and un-loading nevertheless use a similar amount of time, I'm pressed to see a need for the loading "pockets" being divided to two spaces. At (larger) airports, the differing nature of traffic flows within the terminals themselves are a purely functional basis for such an arrangement, but such circumstances must be rarely encountered at rail stations -- except for the St. Pancrases ;)...

*Embrace: All You Good Good People* 8-)
 

Invincibles

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If I was redesiging a big station then the departures "drop off" would be directly above the arrivals "pick up" as it would be at an airport. This is the same way that the Chinese HSR system works at all new stations (as far as I can tell, I have only really used Beijing South, Tianjin, Shanghai South, Shanghai Hongqiao, Jiaxing South, Guangzhou and Shenzhen). When you are integrating transport this is also clever because the buses can drop off at the departures area but then have a more "bus station" type arrangement to pick up near the arrivals.

For smaller stations having a multilevel road is a bit much and you are probably only talking about different parts of the same road, for example Salford Crescent departures would be nearer to the main sources of traffic (Hypothetically the Crescent) and then arrivals would be at the other end of the platform. The road that runs alongside Salford Crescent provides obvious opportunties for a pick up point.

My feeling is that people picking up from trains need to wait longer (delays are inevitable) and so having them in a place that does not obstruct those wishing to quickly drop off and rush to a train seems a good move. I appreciate this is in contrast to your point about the two processes taking the same time (which physically I agree, it is in the operation of the railway that I notice bigger differences)

As for people finding the entrances and exits that is different in the case of every station. I did read the hidden stations thread and found it interesting to know where some of these hidden stations have ended up. However you can have multiple entrances and exits they just lead to (come from) different places. The underground works well with different entrances and exits (many stations have down escalators together seperate from up) coming from different access points. There need be no confusion as routes for exit would be clearly identified as no entry while all signs point to the entrance.

If you use the Jiaxing South example then there is an escalator up from the arrival level to the departure level but no escalator down. Immediately it is obvious which one is the entrance level and which is the exit. Similar things would give it away to most people.

You might always get some people who go down the "exit" but they will soon be stopped by the exit barriers.

Barriers bring us to the final point, they are easier if they are single direction. The criticism of KGX is that people arriving and people wishing to board at the next platform will clog the system. But if the arrivals had gone down to a level underneath they would not be in the way...

Clearly a single platform quiet station does not need any of this thinking, I just feel it is something that should be factored into the design of busier stations (even commuter stations are almost completely one way flow - out in the morning back in the evening - and so would not need to be ammended too much).

A final example. If I was going to barrier Manchester Piccadilly I would upgrade the bridge on the departure end of the platform and have all arrivals cross that to then come down the travelator. People wishing to board a train would then come from the appropriate glass door through a barrier to their train. (The bridge is certainly wide enough it would just need escalators and lifts from all platforms) Yes it would be inconvenient but connections across the buffer stops* and over the bridge would be easy, there is not too much extra movement required by passengers.

*Actually fencing platform pairs (or groups say 1-5, 6-10) at the buffer end would help revenue as access to Virgin services would not be easy with a ticket for an Ardwick train from platform 1. The determined would go onto platform 1 and then go back down onto platform 6 but at least it would be obvious if people were doing that a lot.
 

At_traction

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If I was redesiging a big station then the departures "drop off" would be directly above the arrivals "pick up" as it would be at an airport. This is the same way that the Chinese HSR system works at all new stations (as far as I can tell, I have only really used Beijing South, Tianjin, Shanghai South, Shanghai Hongqiao, Jiaxing South, Guangzhou and Shenzhen).

I assume that the levels of commu(nis)ters ;) using these stations are at least on par with all but a few main stations in (some) of the European countries. Of course the amount of land space for traffic spread and parking (except for level change arrangements) can be reduced that way, but otherwise works flow-wise and for arrangements largely only for new station designs.

When you are integrating transport this is also clever because the buses can drop off at the departures area but then have a more "bus station" type arrangement to pick up near the arrivals.

Different drop-off and pick-up stops for buses must be already in use in most bus stations, but even then there is only a single entrance to a connected rail station.

However you can have multiple entrances and exits they just lead to (come from) different places. [...] There need be no confusion as routes for exit would be clearly identified as no entry while all signs point to the entrance.

But these different entrances towards a station from across the tracks etc. still use bidirectional traffic low and entrances, as the split is only due to gaining access to the station from different streets and cul-de-sacs. Similarly, if the entrances and exits (of which there can be several from different directions) are somewhat next door (pun intended) to each other, then it would be orientation-wise workable.

Like I earlier stated, the internal arrangements as well as, not at all unimportantly, the car-dependent entrance to the area in the first place dictate the entrance/exit locations at airports. Rarely a pedestrian approaches an airport from one of several directions on foot, expecting this or that street leading towards the airport to feature an entrance somewhat nearby. Mainly because there is no such street as in the case of a rail station that in many cases is located within a streetscape. Stations with strictly one approach of course excepted, but then they are not unlike airports in that sense anyway.

If you use the Jiaxing South example then there is an escalator up from the arrival level to the departure level but no escalator down. Immediately it is obvious which one is the entrance level and which is the exit. Similar things would give it away to most people.

Or you could push your way towards the escies, see that some m*ron has switched it for one-way-running (as per peak traffic direction) and take the lift to the lower hall anyway. And only then realize the true nature of things... But these out-of-ordinary arrangements are situations where the signage plays a vital role. A bit like getting to the domestic platforms at STP...

Barriers bring us to the final point, they are easier if they are single direction. The criticism of KGX is that people arriving and people wishing to board at the next platform will clog the system. But if the arrivals had gone down to a level underneath they would not be in the way...

If "retrofitted", such a two-level approach requires rather heavy changes to the existing building and the appropriate changes will extend to the outside too, not necessarily in a beautifying sense.

(even commuter stations are almost completely one way flow - out in the morning back in the evening - and so would not need to be ammended too much).

If modifying existing smaller stations, why the difficulty of providing barriers (that would have to be bi-directional due to the ebb/flow nature of peak traffic in order to not lose half the barrier capacity) or different halls and traffic courts (again, one fully used while, at the same time, the other sits almost unused)?

A final example. If I was going to barrier Manchester Piccadilly I would upgrade the bridge on the departure end of the platform and have all arrivals cross that to then come down the travelator. People wishing to board a train would then come from the appropriate glass door through a barrier to their train. (The bridge is certainly wide enough it would just need escalators and lifts from all platforms) Yes it would be inconvenient but connections across the buffer stops* and over the bridge would be easy, there is not too much extra movement required by passengers.

I'm afraid I'm lost there as I've only used it once and don't know what the change entails, but is departure end the departure (shed "mouth") end of the train or what... Hmm, NR site:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MAN/plan.html?rtnloc=MAN Oh dear. :p

So all exit from platforms is after a long walk (or travelator-trip, if someone pays for such a cadget) along the side platforms via the bridge? Not so appropriate if you'd want to leave that 1st Class coach already nearest the concourse. :o But if the bridge is to be bi-directional and barriered, for capacity reasons the exit escalator/stair (or escalator/escalator) combination would have to be double-width to accommodate all the exit traffic from, at worst, two trains at the same time. On top of that there would of course have to be an extra, barriered stair or escalator for entrance to the respective platform. Plus the lift from the bridge. If using different sides of the bridge, all these could be most probably accommodated.

But then again the question of traffic flow direction arises - is in this local hub station, for example, any real need to force the entering and exiting traffic to use different routes, rather than using the bridge for only arrivals relief in peak times, similarly with departures. Thus both buffer end and bridge would be bi-directional - ie. in peak times mostly for traffic in a single direction. At the bridge there would be single, barriered one-way escalators for both directions, whereas the buffer end would be bi-directional as required by the traffic flow. So, the case KGX wins here too... :p
 

Invincibles

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I assume that the levels of commu(nis)ters ;) using these stations are at least on par with all but a few main stations in (some) of the European countries. Of course the amount of land space for traffic spread and parking (except for level change arrangements) can be reduced that way, but otherwise works flow-wise and for arrangements largely only for new station designs.

44726925.jpg



Is as close as I can get to a picture of Jiaxing South. Maybe I should have taken one myself :oops:

The ramp to take cars up to the departure level (same level as the tracks in that case) is clear on the picture. Cars wishing to pick up use the area shown on the image.

It is certainly a model for a station I would like to see used on HS where there will be a lot of new build stations with potential need for passport checks etc.

I'm afraid I'm lost there as I've only used it once and don't know what the change entails, but is departure end the departure (shed "mouth") end of the train or what... Hmm, NR site:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/MAN/plan.html?rtnloc=MAN Oh dear. :p

So all exit from platforms is after a long walk (or travelator-trip, if someone pays for such a cadget) along the side platforms via the bridge? Not so appropriate if you'd want to leave that 1st Class coach already nearest the concourse. :o But if the bridge is to be bi-directional and barriered, for capacity reasons the exit escalator/stair (or escalator/escalator) combination would have to be double-width to accommodate all the exit traffic from, at worst, two trains at the same time. On top of that there would of course have to be an extra, barriered stair or escalator for entrance to the respective platform. Plus the lift from the bridge. If using different sides of the bridge, all these could be most probably accommodated.

But then again the question of traffic flow direction arises - is in this local hub station, for example, any real need to force the entering and exiting traffic to use different routes, rather than using the bridge for only arrivals relief in peak times, similarly with departures. Thus both buffer end and bridge would be bi-directional - ie. in peak times mostly for traffic in a single direction. At the bridge there would be single, barriered one-way escalators for both directions, whereas the buffer end would be bi-directional as required by the traffic flow. So, the case KGX wins here too... :p

First class is at the London end so would actually have very little extra distance to walk to get out of a London train.

In fact the bridge is only around 5 carriages down the train so the distance to the buffers is not that great. I do not think any additional travelators would be needed. The one that is already there down from the bridge is sufficient. With an up escalator, stairs and a Lift on the departure end side, there is no need to have a very wide bridge at all. So actually it would not change passenger flows around Piccadilly too much.

Of course when a pacer runs down to the end of the platform things are a bit more difficult. But there is no reason to run all the way to the buffers every time so maybe trains could be made to stop nearer the bridge when the platform was not going to be shared with another service?

It is a little off topic to keep talking about Piccadilly, I just felt it would be an example that many will be familiar with.

Finally going back to KGX, yes retrofitting could be an issue, but they are installing a new bridge as part of the works so would 2 bridges have been completely unreasonable? In the KGX arrivals would go out at the platform ends and passengers wishing to depart on trains would enter via the new building and then approach the trains over the bridge(s). As such all the barriers they are currently installing would be exit only.
 

WatcherZero

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I could see Parkway stations having an airport like system due to high car use and plenty of space to work with, I doubt the city centre stations would have the need or the ability for that kind of arrangement.
 

At_traction

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In fact the bridge is only around 5 carriages down the train so the distance to the buffers is not that great.

I'm not certain that walking five carriages is that nice with luggage, back from the direction of the hall, especially if at the departure station the unlucky s*ds had dragged their luggage all the way to the front of the train to a) get a seat and b) be nearer the buffer end and station exit... Too clever. ;)

With an up escalator, stairs and a Lift on the departure end side, there is no need to have a very wide bridge at all. So actually it would not change passenger flows around Piccadilly too much.

But if the bridge is used for departure entrance also (as I thought it was), with barriers for both, I still doubt that a single dedicated arrivals exit escalator for the whole platform cuts it. Unless the (departure) stairs barrier is bi-directional, to be used for exit relief too.

Of course when a pacer runs down to the end of the platform things are a bit more difficult. But there is no reason to run all the way to the buffers every time so maybe trains could be made to stop nearer the bridge when the platform was not going to be shared with another service?

Which leads to a, what, three/four carriages' worth of empty track space to walk from the buffer end entrance to a four/two-car Pacer unit, respectively... Not too popular that either. But of course the stopping pattern could be modified to suit the appropriate traffic flow.
 

Invincibles

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I do not pretend it will be the most attractive thing, but you only have one carriage worth of people at the buffer stop who have to walk 4 carriages to the exit (most long distance trains do not have exit doors at the front end - thinking particularly of the pendolino) then one carriage that has to walk 3/4 (coach B does have doors at both ends) etc...

The stairs would work bidirectionally, they would just be stairs leading up to the bridge.

The only reason the bridge is exit only is the barriers at the Platform 13/14 mini concourse end. There may have to be a couple of barriers there to allow people connecting from 13/14 onto the departure platforms but they could equally be sent via the main concourse.

Yes it increases walking distance over what we are used to, but it does solve a lot of the barrier issues on a terminus like Piccadilly where you can not have people coming in and out in the narrow width that is a platform.

I know the Chinese are used to this system because it is how every station is built (even the very old ones) but there is no reason that we could not use the same idea to regulate flows at major stations.

I think if we all thought about some of the routes the london underground tunnels send us on we would be less happy.
 

At_traction

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I do not pretend it will be the most attractive thing, but you only have one carriage worth of people at the buffer stop who have to walk 4 carriages to the exit (most long distance trains do not have exit doors at the front end - thinking particularly of the pendolino) then one carriage that has to walk 3/4 (coach B does have doors at both ends) etc...

That still doesn't address the problems I noted, such an arrangement for exit at a major city's major station doesn't seem very conventient at all, for exiting passengers at least. It would be a different thing if all the connecting traffic to the platforms was via a bridge (leading more or less directly to the exit) like usually with non-termini stations, but it's indeed an unusual change to a terminal.

Yes it increases walking distance over what we are used to, but it does solve a lot of the barrier issues on a terminus like Piccadilly where you can not have people coming in and out in the narrow width that is a platform.

Judging from photos they don't seem that narrow, that's why I didn't object to the addition of escalators to the bridge out of hand (reduced width past the stair+escalator). If the entrance of people to the platform prior to or at the time of train's arrival (standing in the way of people who are all exiting the train towards the bridge) can be regulated at the barrier, then the same can be done with the exit through the buffers too. If the situation indeed turns out that congested.

Moreover, the present system doesn't in any way preclude the use of the bridge for exiting passengers - if no-one exiting the station (interchange passengers, though, may be more likely use it) chooses to take that route, then it may be a verdict on the change's convenience to them.

I know the Chinese are used to this system because it is how every station is built (even the very old ones) but there is no reason that we could not use the same idea to regulate flows at major stations.

New stations, perhaps, but not at the expense of inconveniencing the already built ones, I'd say.
 

Invincibles

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That still doesn't address the problems I noted, such an arrangement for exit at a major city's major station doesn't seem very conventient at all, for exiting passengers at least. It would be a different thing if all the connecting traffic to the platforms was via a bridge (leading more or less directly to the exit) like usually with non-termini stations, but it's indeed an unusual change to a terminal.

Moreover, the present system doesn't in any way preclude the use of the bridge for exiting passengers - if no-one exiting the station (interchange passengers, though, may be more likely use it) chooses to take that route, then it may be a verdict on the change's convenience to them.

People will not do this when there is an easy level exit available to them, that is obvious.

However if the aim is really to get barriers that do not result in too much congestion and which can control what tickets are accepted onto what platform then it would seem to be a possibility.

I think there would inevitably be objections, because of the convenient arrangement in place now, but that is not to say that the change would not eventually be accepted.

Anyway I doubt that any of this will be incorporated into NR station blueprint even for new stations. Despite the fact it would seem to be the way to regulate flows and ticket check the highest possible number of people.
 
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