NR 'Secretive' Tree Felling

[DarloRich]

I’m pretty sure it’s perfectly legal to cut trees down, even during nesting season, so long as said trees are checked for nests first.

indeed - but the post didn't seem to suggest such surveying work was undertaken.

 

[pdeaves]

I’m pretty sure it’s perfectly legal to cut trees down, even during nesting season, so long as said trees are checked for nests first.

Quite. Better cut a tree down in a controlled fashion than leave it to fall on something/someone in an uncontrolled way.

 

[Robin Edwards]

That was my first thought. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to disturb nesting birds.
I think that previously, felling and cutting back was carried out outside the nesting season. I hope that proper wildlife surveys are being carried out prior to Spring or Summer felling/pruning.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ea...ng-down-trees-during-bird-nesting-season.html
https://www.channel4.com/news/by/tom-clarke/blogs/network-rail-breaching-law-cutting-trees

To be honest I think it's not that vegetation can't be and shouldn't be cut, it's all about the timing and whether W&CA is complied with?

 

[Steptoe]

I have tried to find a definitive answer to the legalities of felling at this time of year and have found this statement from the RSPB:

There is no law in the UK preventing any one from felling trees or pruning hedges at any time of year. However, we advise that you try to do any tree work over the winter months, when you can see into the tree and the tree itself is dormant. This also avoids the peak season for nesting birds, which is from the beginning of March to the end of August.
Read more at http://ww2.rspb.org.uk/community/wi...wrong-end-of-the-stick-about-hedges-and-trees.



Regardless of the legalities I would have thought that H&S issues would take precedence over wildlife considerations. With regard to the preserved line I referred to the majority of felling takes place during the winter months for the very practical reason that there are fewer train movements in this period, but of course this consideration can't apply to NR.

Apologies that the above link doesn't seem to work; here it is again:

http://ww2.rspb.org.uk/community/wi...-end-of-the-stick-about-hedges-and-trees.aspx

 

[HSTEd]

I think if you asked the general population - who's funding is what allows the railway to survive, whether they would prefer to get rid of some of the occasional leaf fall delays - but the cost was linesides that look like the surface of the moon, I think the bulk of the population would accept the delays.

 

[Kneedown]

I have tried to find a definitive answer to the legalities of felling at this time of year and have found this statement from the RSPB:

There is no law in the UK preventing any one from felling trees or pruning hedges at any time of year. However, we advise that you try to do any tree work over the winter months, when you can see into the tree and the tree itself is dormant. This also avoids the peak season for nesting birds, which is from the beginning of March to the end of August.
Read more at http://ww2.rspb.org.uk/community/wi...wrong-end-of-the-stick-about-hedges-and-trees.



Regardless of the legalities I would have thought that H&S issues would take precedence over wildlife considerations. With regard to the preserved line I referred to the majority of felling takes place during the winter months for the very practical reason that there are fewer train movements in this period, but of course this consideration can't apply to NR.

Apologies that the above link doesn't seem to work; here it is again:

http://ww2.rspb.org.uk/community/wi...-end-of-the-stick-about-hedges-and-trees.aspx

It may not be illegal to fell trees or carry out pruning work in itself, but if that work does affect nesting birds then it is possible that an offence may be committed under the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981.

 

[LAX54]

Am I right in thinking that the trees only date back to the end of steam?

and we have since seen the onset of "Tree Huggers" who have also tried to stop NR felling trees.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

The majority of people travelling would not notice whether there were trees outside or they had been felled, as they cannot take their eyes off their phones or other devices.

 

[Bromley boy]

but the cost was linesides that look like the surface of the moon,

I’ve seen a great many parts of the railway that have been defoliaged. I’ve yet to see a single one that looks like the surface of the moon.

Ridiculous hyperbole.

 

[richa2002]

I’ve seen a great many parts of the railway that have been defoliaged. I’ve yet to see a single one that looks like the surface of the moon.

Ridiculous hyperbole.

Agreed. The low level greenery will return within a month or two and will actually look a damned sight better than before.

 

[Steptoe]

Mid-Norfolk Railway
Admin · 23 mins
1975 and 2018 looking south between Hoe and Worthing.
The felling of lineside trees has been in the news: https://amp.theguardian.com/…/millions-of-trees-at-risk-in-…
Removal of lineside vegetation is the railway catching up on long overdue maintenance work. In the good old days the linesides were regularly scythed by the local maintenance gangs and the saplings never emerged out of the grass. Leaves not only cause adhesion problems between the train wheels and the rails but also rot down, clog the ballast, block drains and cause the sleepers to rot. In windy conditions, branches and trees can fall on the line and could cause significant damage to trains. The added bonus of removing lineside trees are the fantastic views.
(1975 photo from: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/9579974575/)

 

[Deepgreen]

It seems the article is also being claimed as an 'exclusive' for the Guardian. Wow, secret nuclear weapons programmes have nothing on tree felling.

That aside, while I hope active nests are not being disturbed, these trees should never have been allowed to grow so much as they have and a widespread felling is needed for the operational railway.

Not only does leave fall cause significant delays every year, the leaf clearing (railhead treatment program) costs millions a year. Additionally, the damage caused to wheel sets by 'flats' during leaf fall is expensive to repair and requires trains to be withdrawn from service and other services are then short formed.

Add to this a fallen tree or branch can write off the front end of the train and potentially the driver as well, then I'm happy for this tree felling.

Visually, in some routes the vast numbers of trees on railway property prevents observation of some marvellous scenic views.

Pretty much all trees within the railway boundary should be removed. Railways are not primarily 'wildlfe corridors' but infrastructure to allow trains to run.

When they finish with the trees, maybe they could start shifting the rusting hulks of rolling stock dotted around the country, the other scrap metal left lineside and the shrubbery that grows out of bridges, viaducts, stations etc

Yes, the scrap metal is a particular issue, as the value around the network must be enormous, aside from the safety implications of so many trip hazards and invitations to vandals to move old rails, etc. onto the line. I think tree felling is fine and would return the railway to steam era conditions in terms of line-side open-ness. A couple of observations, though - a) care/consideration is needed where screening is provided to railway neighbours, and b) rather than just fell mature trees to stumps, actually treat the stumps to prevent re-growth.

 

[Wychwood93]

Over the years too many 'green tunnels' have materialised - an MR article a year or so ago had cab shots. Spot the train stuff! See also a link (Fraser Pithie photos) from the Kenilworth thread. Down here in Christchurch we have had complaints in the local Echo re. NR tree stuff twixt Pokesdown and Bournemouth. To me the job needs doing - further up 'my' line the 'cleansing' has in some cases improved the views to what I was accustomed to when younger. As Bromley Boy said - there is no lunar landscape - far from it. Now we are in 'nesting' season the welcome trimming of trees will generally stop. I do not disagree with that - I have constructed our own nesting boxes etc. - feed them curries etc. (no heat receptors). A friend at my local has moaned to me, knowing I am ex-staff, that now that some (quite a few) trees have been cut down on the embankment between Hinton and Christchurch, that there is more train noise - I replied that you knew there was a railway here already! Matey fun. I did mention that after 60+ years I love the sound of traction motors now as much as I could see steam going up the bank all those years ago. The glow from the firebox etc.

Slightly off topic? Or life?

 

[Bromley boy]

I have constructed our own nesting boxes etc. - feed them curries etc. (no heat receptors).

Well I never knew that.

You’re not feeding them chicken vindaloo, or similar, I hope?

That would be cannibalism!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think if you asked the general population - who's funding is what allows the railway to survive, whether they would prefer to get rid of some of the occasional leaf fall delays - but the cost was linesides that look like the surface of the moon, I think the bulk of the population would accept the delays.

Right up until the day a leaf-fall induced SPAD causes a level crossing collision. It nearly happened a few years ago at Parbold: substantial de-vegetation exercise soon followed!

 

[TheEdge]

I think if you asked the general population - who's funding is what allows the railway to survive, whether they would prefer to get rid of some of the occasional leaf fall delays - but the cost was linesides that look like the surface of the moon, I think the bulk of the population would accept the delays.

What about the countless delay minutes every day across the network due to cautions, ESR and TSRs imposed due to foliage obscuring signals, crossings and the like? Or every day the service on a line with overheads has gone down when a tree has fallen? Or every delay caused by restrictions due to structure and embankment damage caused by roots? Or the damage and delay caused when an unfortunate train meets a fallen tree at speed?

A few weeks of poor adhesion in Autumn is far from the only issue trees cause and the sooner the trackside looks more like it did in steam days the better.

 

[Wychwood93]

Well I never knew that.

You’re not feeding them chicken vindaloo, or similar, I hope?

That would be cannibalism!

Yet to try vindaloo - to be fair most birds, esp. corvids (crow family) will eat anything you toss out of the door - what they do not eat the seagulls (close-ish to the sea) or the rats will. That's life in the country - poss. not too different in many towns. Foxes common here as well. Yet to have a proper look at posts 45 and 46 - by the time I finish this we could be up to 50!

 

[Kneedown]

Alt

Well I never knew that.

You’re not feeding them chicken vindaloo, or similar, I hope?

That would be cannibalism!

Although I hear that Kingfishers are quite partial to a king prawn Phall!

 

[HSTEd]

What about the countless delay minutes every day across the network due to cautions, ESR and TSRs imposed due to foliage obscuring signals, crossings and the like? Or every day the service on a line with overheads has gone down when a tree has fallen? Or every delay caused by restrictions due to structure and embankment damage caused by roots? Or the damage and delay caused when an unfortunate train meets a fallen tree at speed?

The railway functions doesn't it?
This means the delay losses and other problems are acceptable.

And ERTMS will help with the signal obstruction problems.

A few weeks of poor adhesion in Autumn is far from the only issue trees cause and the sooner the trackside looks more like it did in steam days the better.

And the railway loses its image as an ecologically minded method of transport, which with the coming of other electric methods of transport will end very badly for the railway.

The majority of people travelling would not notice whether there were trees outside or they had been felled, as they cannot take their eyes off their phones or other devices.

The travelling public is an irrellevance.

It's everyone else that is the issue for PR purposes.

Removal of lineside vegetation is the railway catching up on long overdue maintenance work. In the good old days the linesides were regularly scythed by the local maintenance gangs and the saplings never emerged out of the grass. Leaves not only cause adhesion problems between the train wheels and the rails but also rot down, clog the ballast, block drains and cause the sleepers to rot. In windy conditions, branches and trees can fall on the line and could cause significant damage to trains. The added bonus of removing lineside trees are the fantastic views.
(1975 photo from: https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/9579974575/)

Well if the railway moves out of the 19th Century, then there will little problem with clogged ballast, since ballasted track shouldn't really be being installed any more IMO.
Ballastless track is now clearly superior for new installations, see HS2 adopting it - effectively in it's entirity - and the extensive use of the track on the continent and elsewhere.
It is only a matter of time before all renewals will start using it - and it can't come too soon.

Likewise, is sleepers rotting down really a problem on a modern railway? Surely the objective should be the total abolition of wooden sleepers sooner rather than later anyway?

As to blowing down trees across lines - the easiest solution to that is to expand the forested area away from the tracks to the greatest possible degree to ensure a wind break effect.

And finally, the fantastic views are for the benefit of a small portion of the travelling public that actually cares about the view, which is itself a rather small proportion of the total population - most of which would rather the railway and its noise generation be concealed to the greatest degree possible.[/QUOTE]

 

[TheEdge]

The railway functions doesn't it?
This means the delay losses and other problems are acceptable.

And ERTMS will help with the signal obstruction problems.

And the railway loses its image as an ecologically minded method of transport, which with the coming of other electric methods of transport will end very badly for the railway.

I don't know what you are approaching this from, be it commuter, enthusiast, staff but I don't understand your thinking. The railway functions but it can function a lot better if NR get the loppers out and start cutting down the trees. When you miss a flight or a funeral because the OHL on the GEML has been brought down again by a tree come back and tell us the delays are acceptable when it could have been stopped by some cutting back. Or tell the next driver injured by a shower of glass and wood that its acceptable because the trees are pretty.

As to ERTMS being the solution you are genuinely suggesting a system that will take decades to roll out is better than a few hours with a chainsaw and woodchipper? And how does that solve crossing sighting? Or the physical damage?

The enviromental credentials of the railways doesn't come from trees, it comes from the thousands of cars and lorries taken off the roads, cars and lorries which return to the roads every time a rogue sycamore causes a day of disruption.

You are offering up massive incredibly costly solutions to an issue which can be solved in a much more cost and time effective way.

 

[The Planner]

I take it no one has read Sir Peter Hendy's tweet about it?

 

[driver_m]

I take it no one has read Sir Peter Hendy's tweet about it?

Not on twitter .have you a link?

 

[3973EXL]

Not on twitter .have you a link?

https://twitter.com/SirPeterHendy

 

[68000]

https://twitter.com/SirPeterHendy/status/990660939451072512

 

[Bald Rick]

https://twitter.com/SirPeterHendy/status/990660939451072512

Go on, say what you think!

 

[AM9]

I don't know what you are approaching this from, be it commuter, enthusiast, staff but I don't understand your thinking. The railway functions but it can function a lot better if NR get the loppers out and start cutting down the trees. When you miss a flight or a funeral because the OHL on the GEML has been brought down again by a tree come back and tell us the delays are acceptable when it could have been stopped by some cutting back. Or tell the next driver injured by a shower of glass and wood that its acceptable because the trees are pretty.

As to ERTMS being the solution you are genuinely suggesting a system that will take decades to roll out is better than a few hours with a chainsaw and woodchipper? And how does that solve crossing sighting? Or the physical damage?

The enviromental credentials of the railways doesn't come from trees, it comes from the thousands of cars and lorries taken off the roads, cars and lorries which return to the roads every time a rogue sycamore causes a day of disruption.

You are offering up massive incredibly costly solutions to an issue which can be solved in a much more cost and time effective way.

Then HSTEd undermines his comment about the railway losing its image as an ecologically minded method of transport by advocating the laying of millions of tons of concrete in either slipform/precast paving or even just replacing timber sleepers with yet more concrete, - probably the most environmentally damaging building material available today.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The railway functions doesn't it?
This means the delay losses and other problems are acceptable.

And ERTMS will help with the signal obstruction problems.

And the railway loses its image as an ecologically minded method of transport, which with the coming of other electric methods of transport will end very badly for the railway.



The travelling public is an irrellevance.

It's everyone else that is the issue for PR purposes.



Well if the railway moves out of the 19th Century, then there will little problem with clogged ballast, since ballasted track shouldn't really be being installed any more IMO.
Ballastless track is now clearly superior for new installations, see HS2 adopting it - effectively in it's entirity - and the extensive use of the track on the continent and elsewhere.
It is only a matter of time before all renewals will start using it - and it can't come too soon.

Likewise, is sleepers rotting down really a problem on a modern railway? Surely the objective should be the total abolition of wooden sleepers sooner rather than later anyway?

As to blowing down trees across lines - the easiest solution to that is to expand the forested area away from the tracks to the greatest possible degree to ensure a wind break effect.

And finally, the fantastic views are for the benefit of a small portion of the travelling public that actually cares about the view, which is itself a rather small proportion of the total population - most of which would rather the railway and its noise generation be concealed to the greatest degree possible.

[/QUOTE]

There are so many issues here that i do not know where to begin.

But my main concerns is your lack of understanding of track engineering. Just necause HS2 uses it that does not mean its okay everywhere. Concrete sleepers actually arent always the best option. And what about the ecological damage about putting a huge whacking great lump of concrete down? And the associated increased water run odf and drainage that would be required? Or the cost...

 

[paul1609]

Am I right in thinking that the trees only date back to the end of steam?

Amusingly the main photo in the newspaper version of the article is taken looking back from one of our steam trains at the Kent and East Sussex Railway this is our A set just having crossed Cranbrook Rd on the climb up Tenterden Bank. It was removed from the website when someone commented on the Mark 1 coaches.

 

[Bald Rick]

Amusingly the main photo in the newspaper version of the article is taken looking back from one of our steam trains at the Kent and East Sussex Railway this is our A set just having crossed Cranbrook Rd on the climb up Tenterden Bank. It was removed from the website when someone commented on the Mark 1 coaches.View attachment 46169

Amused with that, as I was delayed by a tree on the line on that very railway.

 

[341o2]

Something similar locally

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne..._after_Bournemouth_resident__39_s_complaints/

A NATIONAL petition is set to be launched after a Bournemouth resident spoke out about millions of trees being felled along railway lines.

Network Rail came under fire for launching a programme of works across the country to remove trees that are in proximity of the tracks.

The firm, which owns and manages 20,000 miles of railway in England, Scotland and Wales, said the felling has been carried out for safety reasons.

However as reported by the Daily Echo earlier this month, resident Ray Walton has questioned the legitimacy of this work and warned of the damage it will have on wildlife. Network Rail has refuted this and said the company takes the responsibility to protect the natural environment seriously.