NR plans to axe 800 signalboxes

[The Planner]

Makes little difference, if someone is determined enough, they will get to them. If you see the random places on the railway where there is graffiti you wonder how they get there.

 

[Metroland]

Yes, but some boxes are hardly accessible, Droitwich Spa, for example is surrounded by railway on two sides; then after that there are high spiked metal fences leading to a Chemical plant on one side and fences and a steep embankment with trees on the other. Then a 20m embankment down to a canal covers the third side. Also Worcester Tunnel Jct isn't easy to get to.

Ever seen those urban exploring websites?

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_exploration

http://urbanexplorers.net/

http://www.derelicte.co.uk/

etc, etc



As much as I love semaphore signals and old style signalboxes, in the internet age, these things smack of a past era, are less suitable for modern traffic needs and are expensive to run and should be confined to preserved lines.

 

[Greenback]

As much as I love semaphore signals and old style signalboxes, in the internet age, these things smack of a past era, are less suitable for modern traffic needs and are expensive to run and should be confined to preserved lines.

Can't argue with any of that, they do seem anachronistic in the modern world. What I would bring up though is that when the power signalling goes wrong, it goes wrong big style (like the power problems in Cardiff a while back). As a signalling centre covers increasingly large areas, disruption can be very widespread.

 

[Metroland]

Depends what you build in to protect that happening, there are many pieces of key infrastructure, if they went wrong, would cause big problems.

Anyway, from another forum, I have gleaned this info

===================================

New operating strategy for the next 15-30 years

Our business has announced plans to move all elements of operational control into 14 modern rail operating centres (ROCs).

The proposed changes would take place over the next 15-30 years, and face-to-face briefings with our people have begun to introduce the new plans.

Talks with the trades unions have also now started to discuss the proposals.

Increasingly difficult to operate and maintain
The proposed changes are being planned now, as our business moves to become ever-more efficient.

Currently we have more than 800 operating locations, controlled by a variety of systems and equipment, which is becoming increasingly difficult and expensive to operate and maintain.

This equipment can't keep up with today's fast paced technology, and is limiting the potential of the network.

Modernise the way we operate the network
The project would require us to build six new ROCs to add to the eight centres that already currently exist.

These new centres will feature advanced traffic management technology to help modernise the way we operate the network. Similar approaches are already used, or are being introduced, across Europe, USA and Japan.

Up-to-date systems
Speaking about the proposals, Steve Knight, head of operations development, said: “The plans we're announcing will see us accelerate re-signalling work and continue the signalling consolidation that's been happening for more than 100 years on the railway.

“It will bring our railway up into modern times, and allow our people an opportunity to work with up-to-date systems that will put our network on par with leading railways elsewhere.”

What are the benefits?
The plans will help us deliver a better-value railway, reducing operating costs by £250 million a year when complete
Reactionary delay counts for more than 50% of all delay. Having fewer locations, with simplified communications and better technology, will help reduce this
More reliable performance and better train regulation will allow more flexibility and capacity for train paths
The proposals will see a significant acceleration of investment in the railway, representing around £1.1 billion over 15 years.

What this will mean for signalling colleagues?
Signalling and control roles will be more aligned and we'll work more closely with customers
Our people will have safer, modern working environments
Many colleagues will work at each ROC, so our people won't need to work alone
There will be more opportunity for training and support.

A long-term vision
Our proposal is a long-term vision, with the plans subject to additional funding over the next three control periods.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a breakdown of dates and locations as part of "the vision".

Where the sites will be
Derby, Gillingham (Kent), Cardiff, Saltley, Edinburgh, Ashford.

Further upgrade required at
Didcot, Glasgow

New buildings proposed
Romford, Three Bridges, York, Manchester, Rugby, Basingstoke

When this will happen

Wessex
2012 - Exeter to Salisbury
2013 - Aldershot to Farnham, Poole to Dorchester
2014 - Yeovil Pen Mill
2016 - Eastleigh (Panel 1), Farncombe, Guildford, Salisbury
2017 - Basingstoke, Eastleigh (Panel 2 & 3), Woking, Feltham (Panel 3 & 4)
2018 - Wimbledon (Panel 4 & 5), Feltham (Panel 1 & 2)
2019 to 2024 - Brockenhurst, Clapham Yard, Wimbledon (Panel 1, 2 & 3)
2024 onwards - Bournemouth, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Marchwood, Wokingham, School Road

Thames Valley
2011 - Slough IECC
2012 - Swindon 'B'
2013 - Slough Panel, Colthrop, Kintbury
2014 - Swindon 'A'
2016 - Oxford
2018 - Greenford
2024 onwards - Westbury

Great Western
2012 - Ley
2015 - Bristol PSB
2019 to 2024 - Gloucester, Liskeard to Penzance and branches, Plymouth PSB
2024 onwards - Cotswolds, Exeter, Crediton, Paignton, Exmouth Jcn, St Andrews Jcn, Worcester area, Malvern lines

Wales

2011 Newport.
2012 Crewe - Shrewsbury, Llanelli.
2013 Cardiff, Cardiff (Cowbridge Rd - Barry) Cardiff Valleys.
2014 North Wales (East)
2015 - 2019 West Wales
2017 Abercynon & Barry, Newport - Shrewsbury.
2019 - 2024 Newport, North Wales (West), Port Talbot.
2024 onwards, Hereford, Machynlleth, Pantyffynon South, Port Talbot West (mechanical), Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury - Liverpool, Shrewsbury - Wrexham, Tondu, West Wales, Bishton.


In addition Route controls will move into the new Rail Operating Centres, the majority within the next ten years.

There will be two Electrical Control Rooms for the country; Manchester and Three Bridges. Earliest move expected by 2014.

And correction to above, Kings cross PSB goes to Three Bridges ROC and Sheffield on EMCC.


New buildings constructed:

Three Bridges - 2013 (study for Three Bridges one here http://www.crawley.gov.uk/stellent/groups/public/documents/plappother/int201191.pdf )
Manchester - 2013
Romford - 2014
York - 2014
Basingstoke - 2015
Rugby - 2016

 

[Rugd1022]

Ever seen those urban exploring websites?

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_exploration

http://urbanexplorers.net/

http://www.derelicte.co.uk/

etc, etc



As much as I love semaphore signals and old style signalboxes, in the internet age, these things smack of a past era, are less suitable for modern traffic needs and are expensive to run and should be confined to preserved lines.

As for modern traffic needs, at places like Worcester the line speed is fairly low (25mph through the station) with fixed distants so at the moment the two boxes there can cope very well with the flow of traffic. I've heard plenty of drivers moaning like buggery about the signalling there but personally I love it and have no problems with those evil right handers that seem to be in the wrong place. I always look forward to being on the two turns which take us into the yard to run round.

From my point of view, talking on the phone to a 'faceless' signaller miles away in a largely closed off bunker isn't the same as wandering up the steps into Tunnel Junction 'box and chatting with the bobby while I fill my flask up.... there's something a bit soulless about using the phonetic alphabet when talking down the line, having to repeat back certain messages for the benefit of the tape. Obviously I realise it's all safety critical communication and I'm well used to doing it that way, but going up the 'box and saying to the Bobby face to face ''can we run round via the station and do the bang road move via the tunnel?'' still feels like the right way to go about things, with both of us knowing exactly what's required in the process. Ah well, maybe I'm just wearing my rose tinted specs too much, but I'll miss all those semaphores, Bobbies and their boxes once they're gone...

 

[Metroland]

Looks like Worcester is not going to be done for another 10 years in any case. Ironic considering around 1990 it had new colour lights erected on the east end, ready to be controlled by a new panel. The money ran out, and BR ripped it all back out again!

At Shrewsbury many resignalling schemes have been announced, I swear I watched something on Midlands Today years ago about the imminent demise of the semaphores - they are still there, and likely to be for another 10 years.

 

[Greenback]

At Shrewsbury many resignalling schemes have been announced, I swear I watched something on Midlands Today years ago about the imminent demise of the semaphores - they are still there, and likely to be for another 10 years.

I'm sure that I read an article in 1991 about the impeding resignalling at Shrewsbury and the loss of the manual signalboxes. I would expect that the NR plan would be subject to revision and slippage in terms of timescales too.

 

[a good off]

The 1991 resignalling plans for Shrewsbury were drastic in terms of track rationalisation and only the bare minimum would have been left. It was lucky the scheme was aborted as half the everyday moves that we make today would have been impossible. The scheme also included the singling of the line from Shrewsbury to Gobowen which would have created a few headaches...

 

[chiltern_chidg]

Man power is being replaced by computers unfortunately :/.

Matthew

 

[NSEFAN]

Man power is being replaced by computers unfortunately :/

That's been going on for years in all walks of life. Hopefully the resignalling scheme will move with 'natural wastage' of the workforce so that fewer people have to be made redundant.

 

[50010 Monarch]

The 1991 resignalling plans for Shrewsbury were drastic in terms of track rationalisation and only the bare minimum would have been left. It was lucky the scheme was aborted as half the everyday moves that we make today would have been impossible. The scheme also included the singling of the line from Shrewsbury to Gobowen which would have created a few headaches...

Yes, it was a blessing that the money ran out & the Shrewsbury resignalling was postponed.

Same goes with Worcester & the proposed closure of Norton Junction box. It is hard to believe that single line working was proposed from Shrub Hill station to Abbotswood Junction & another single line from Shrub Hill to Evesham....

 

[Metroland]

Bit more info:

Scotland

2011 - Carmuirs West, Paisley, Annat Crossing
2012 - Polmont
2013 - Cathcart, Millerhill
2015/6 - Motherwell, Yoker
2017 - Cowlairs
2018 - Carmuirs East, Grangemouth, Motherwell, Stranraer Line
2010 to 2024 - GB&K, Glasgow South West, Highland Line, Perth - Dundee
2024 onwards

Aberdeen
Aberdeen to Inverness
Banavie
Carmuirs to Dunblane
Dunblane to Perth
Dundee
Dundee to Aberdeen
Fort William
Fouldubs
Inverness
Leuchars / Cupar
Longannet
Nairn

East Midlands

2011 - Croft, Kirby Summit, Robinhood Panel, Leicester PSB
2013 - Nottingham (Trent), Netherfield, Sneinton & Rectory Jn
2014 - Bingham & Bottesford, Nottingham to Newark
2015 - Leicester - Peterborough, North Staffs
2016 - Derby PSB, South Staffs line
2019 to 2024 - Bardon Hill - Moira West Jn, West Hampstead

Southern

2011 - Faversham - Ramsgate/Sheperdswell
2012 - Snodland, Littlehaven
2013 - East Susses Coast, Arun Valley, East Sussex Coast
2015 - Rochester - Sittingbourne, Arundel, Lewes & Newhaven, West Sussex
2016 - Maidstone East, Victoria (recontrol to Three Bridges)
2017 - Deal, Minster & Sandwich, Folkestone East, Three Bridges PSB
2018 - London Bridge (recontrol to Three Bridges)
2019 to 2024 - Ashford (North Kent), Wye, Oxted, Reigate
2024 onwards - Hastings Line, Medway Valley, Sturry & Canterbury West, Bognor, Dorking

Great Northern

2012 - Gosberton, West Burton
2013 - Doncaster Crossing boxes
2014 - Beighton, Woodhouse & Woodburn
2015 - Appleby, Barnetby, Grimsby, Blankney, Lincoln - Beckingham, Newark Castle
2016 - Lincoln (recontrol to York), Barsnley - Healey Mills, Barton on Humber Branch, Gainsborough - Barnetby, Immingham and Cleethorpes.
2018 - Allington, Kings Cross (recontrol to Three Bridges), Sheffield (recontrol to Derby EMCC)
2019 to 2024 - Ancaster to Sleaford, Doncaster, Grantham - Retford, Lincoln - Barnetby, Peterborough, Ranskill and Finningley GB, Scunthorpe, Sleaford - Lincoln/Skegness, Balne & Moss GB

2024 onwards Gt Coastes/Pyewipe, Worksop

North Eastern

2012 - Selby Area Crossings, Heck Ings GC, Horsforth - Rigton, Cutsyke Junction
2013 - Crofton old station, Urlay Nook, Suforth Lane & Hensall
2016 - Castleford - Wakefield, Hull Selby, Calder Valley & Transpennie
2017 - Durham Coast
2018 - Middlesbrough Area, Sudforth Lane - Goole
2019 to 2024 - Blyth and Tyne, Ferrybridge, Harrogate line, Newcastle - Carlisle, Tweedmouth, York IECC, Hull Paragon
2024 onwards - Tyneside IECC, Wolds Coast, York - Scarborough, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Darlington - Bishop Aukland

Manchester and Central

2011 - Manchester East
2012 - Prescot, Crossfields/Littons Mill, Preson to Hestbank, Brierfield & Huncoast
2013 - Manchester NW
2015 - Liverpool LS, Macclesfield
2016 - Allerton & Speke, Halton & Runcorn, Warrington
2017 - Buguley Fold, Manchester East, Preston PSB and East Lancs
2018 - Wigan Wallgate, Carlisle PSB
2019 to 2024 - Chester PSB, Hope Valley, Lime street - St Helens, Manchester North, Greenbank, Warrington to Fiddlers Ferry, Wigan - Southport, Manchester NW, Manchester NE, Crewe, Basford Hall, Winsford, Cumbrian Coast

2024 onwards Buxton, Cheshire Line, Chester area, Manchester Picadilly, Manchester South, Merseyrail, Stockport, Beeston Castle, Crewe Steelworks, Settle to Carlisle, Blackpool Line

Romford ROC

2011 - Kennett (to Bury St Edmunds Yard)
2012 - Ely - Norwich (to Cambridge PSB), Bollo Lane (to Acton Wells SB)

2014 Romford buildings complete, then

2015-2020 - Ely - Peterborough, Bury line, Ely - Kings Lynn, Norwich East, North London line (west), Cambridge PSB area
2020-2030 - Liverpool St IECC, Colchester PSB
2030 - Remainder of Anglia

 

[ukrob]

Obvious question, but I assume these are the planned dates for moving and therefore closure of the boxes on the specified lines?

 

[142094]

Gives me about a decade to try and visit the ones up here.

 

[swt_passenger]

What's odd about that latest list is that it has Kings Cross coming under Three Bridges. Logically that can only be because of the connection with the Thameslink routes, yet the same list has West Hampstead going to EMCC?

Confusion somewhere about what's going on with Thameslink. We were discussing this in another forum a few months ago, at that stage just wondering about the core Blackfriars to St Pancras ATO section, and it was thought it would probably have to be controlled by one signal centre, of course that was way before the list of 13 regional centres became publicised...

 

[Metroland]

Obvious question, but I assume these are the planned dates for moving and therefore closure of the boxes on the specified lines?

Yep, a complete full list has been published with the closing date/recontrol date of every signalbox. Bizarrely some of the mechanical box islands (Worcester, Shrewsbury, Stirling, NE Scotland, Cornwall, S&C) survive well into the 2020s, while the next decade is expected to see the closure of quite a few major PSBs, some commissioned as late as the 1980s and 1990s.

Significant closures in next decade

2011 - Slough IECC - to TVSC
2011 - Leicester PSB, late 1980s NX PSB, the first box with VDU control - to EMCC
2012 - 1990s Swindon B IECC to TVSC
2013 - Trent PSB closes, 1960s vintage - to EMCC
2013 - Slough PSB - to TVSC
2014 - 1960s Woverhampton PSB closes - to WMSC
2014 - Leamington PSB (along with Banbury N/S) to WMSC
2015 - Yoker IECC, early 1990s IECC - to WSSC
2015 - Bristol PSB closes - to TVSC
2016 - Motherwell PSB, early 1970s NX panel - To WSSC
2016 - Derby PSB, 1960s LM design as above - to EMCC
2016 - 2019 - 1970s/80s Victoria PSB closes, transfer to Three Bridges
2016 - 1970s Oxford PSB - to TVSC
2016 - last part of Saltley PSB to WMSC
2017 - 1960s Birmingham NS PSB closes - to WMSC
2018 - London Bridge PSB, 1970s NX panel, transfer to Three Bridges
2018 - 1970s Sheffield PSB closes, transfer to EMCC
2019 - 1970s Kings X PSB to Three Bridges
2020 - 1970s Part of Doncaster and Peterborough PSBs to York ROC

2040s/2050s survivors: A few shocks here, because someone who is 20 years old today, may find significant islands of semaphores in 40 years when they are 60.

Shrewsbury Mechanical boxes survive until 2050, by this time even the West Midlands/East Midlands ROCs will be 30 years old, Whitland and Ferryside also survive
Haslemere and Petersfield SBs on Portsmouth line survive until 2051
Wokingham SB to 2056, and Marchwood to 2057!
Reedham and Somerleyton Swing Bridge SB survive into 2051
The Cotswold Hereford and Worcester SBs,survive until 2047
Blackpool SBs to 2029, which I find surprising because of electrification
Medway Valley SBs survive until 2055 and SBs around Hastings until 2053, with Bopeep Junction to 2048

 

[Class172]

Worcester in 2047!! (I presume it includes Droitwich Spa SB) I'll be 50 by then!! hock:

 

[Metroland]

Yep, Ascott-under-Wychwood, Evesham, Norton Junction, Ledbury, Malvern Wells, Newland East, Droitwich Spa, Henwick, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Tunnel Junction are due at 2047.

This all may change, depending on technology, funding etc, some of it more certain. For example the London - Bristol and S Wales portion of the western, which is tied up with electrification, cross rail, significant station remodelling at Reading and so on.

The problem with a lot of the relay/SSI PSBs is the wiring becomes a significant problem after a while, so the case for a major re-control becomes acute. Although Cornwall is due for major resignalling around 2019, before the 1960s Gloucester PSB, which is due to be replaced in 10 years. Plymouth, because the condition of wiring is good, even though some parts of it date way back, gets through to 2022, and Exeter mid-80s PSB is due to last for another 15 years.

 

[142094]

Wonder if there will be a scramble to preserve/list some of these signalboxes before they are withdrawn?

 

[matchmaker]

Bit more info:

Scotland

(long list)

Carmuirs West - already demolished!

Banavie is rumoured to last until 2040!

 

[Proud Salopian]

Good to hear Shrewsbury remaining mechanical into the second half of this century!

Does that include Crewe Junction (NOT Crewe Bank), Abbey Foregate and Sutton Bridge?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wonder if there will be a scramble to preserve/list some of these signalboxes before they are withdrawn?

The big one in Shrewsbury (ie Severn Bridge) is listed, and I wonder what they could use it for when it no longer houses signallers? Would make a nice railway museum/enthusiasts' viewing platform... though access across the tracks isn't great. (New footbridge or two? A tunnel perhaps?)

 

[Metroland]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SignalWatch/messages

The full list is downloadable from the Signalwatch Yahoo group.

There's also various discussions on the signalbox forum http://www.signalbox.org/forum/

and the simsig forum

http://www.simsig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=&Itemid=132

 

[50010 Monarch]

Yep, Ascott-under-Wychwood, Evesham, Norton Junction, Ledbury, Malvern Wells, Newland East, Droitwich Spa, Henwick, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Tunnel Junction are due at 2047.

This all may change, depending on technology, funding etc, some of it more certain. For example the London - Bristol and S Wales portion of the western, which is tied up with electrification, cross rail, significant station remodelling at Reading and so on.

The problem with a lot of the relay/SSI PSBs is the wiring becomes a significant problem after a while, so the case for a major re-control becomes acute. Although Cornwall is due for major resignalling around 2019, before the 1960s Gloucester PSB, which is due to be replaced in 10 years. Plymouth, because the condition of wiring is good, even though some parts of it date way back, gets through to 2022, and Exeter mid-80s PSB is due to last for another 15 years.

That's a good stay of execution for Norton Junction box considering closure notices were issued in 1990....

 

[142094]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SignalWatch/messages

The full list is downloadable from the Signalwatch Yahoo group.

There's also various discussions on the signalbox forum http://www.signalbox.org/forum/

and the simsig forum

http://www.simsig.co.uk/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=&Itemid=132

Anyone who is a member of that group able to post either the list or document (can't get in).

 

[Aictos]

Anyone who is a member of that group able to post either the list or document (can't get in).

Seconded, this would be helpful.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Thirded!

Or simply info on Abbey Foregate, Crewe Junction (Shrewsbury) and Sutton Bridge boxes.