NR High speed proposal

[Metroland]

Well its speed and capacity. Essentially they HSR will be running at gradients of up to 1 in 55, about 40% less space than a 6 lane highway and 40% more capacity, at speeds 3-4 times quicker than roads, and better than air under 300-400miles - all with relatively low environmental impact.

I'm pleased to see they have including construction and operating emissions (including the trains), which are so rolled out as a defence against not building these sorts of things and it works out 5-7 g co2 per seat km and assumed 10-15g pass km. Making a likely grand total of around 15-30 g co2 per passenger km - which is considerably lower than car and air, even without indirect emissions and other effects - which I hope the DFT include in future schemes for other modes. Total land take is around 4.5 miles square, which is a bit more than Stansted expansion.

They only fly in the ointment is the cost, but then at £2 bn per year of public money (remember some of it is private and its likely to make an operating profit as most HSR lines do), its actually 0.3% of public spend over 10 years. Considering the economic advantages for the Midlands and the north, I would hope people will back it. Ultimately it will need public and political support, however I can see vested interests lobbying against it even though it would actually improve things for them to.

 

[Geezertronic]

I am interested to know where the London and Birmingham terminus's would be.

I am assuming that the obvious place for a new Birmingham Terminus would be created on the old Curzon Street land (which was muted as a replacement for New Street at one time during the start of the Gateway project) which could be easily linked (via walk, Midland Metro extension or other means) to Moor Street and New Street.

 

[mumrar]

Essentially they HSR will be running at gradients of up to 1 in 55

Where does that figure come from, seeing as most European HSRs have ruling gradients up to double the steepness? If we've got any sense we will copy these very successful European models as much as possible to maximum effect

 

[asylumxl]

I think the central spine with branch lines is the best approach. There is no foresight in the UK, each project is approached as a seperate project. Surely we want to be integrating these lines together, not isolating them.

 

[Kneedown]

doh, ah well, you have some of the best DMU's on the network so its not all bad

We've got the most run down Sprinter fleet in the country!

I guess they will need somewhere to cascade the old rolling stock. Perhaps more HST services will begin once IEP gets into full swing

HST's will be on the way out by the time IEP establishes itself. EMT only plan to keep theirs until about 2015 (To be replaced by.....Your guess is as good as mine!) and the others in service with other TOC's aren't any younger.

 

[ffcphone]

As a Prestonian I'm quite excited at the (hypothetical) prospect of HS2 calling here in decades time. Just wish it could happen sooner. Mind you, the suggestion HS2 stations would be located close to the motorway network is a little strange. Presumably a whole new "interchange hub" would need to be created to allow easy linkage to non-HS rail services, bus services, etc otherwise dumping passengers without a car some miles away is Ryanair-esque!

 

[j0hn0]

We've got the most run down Sprinter fleet in the country!

Disagree, have you commuted in the Leeds or Manchester area lately? Pacers my friend, hideous, and without bogies on track that seems to have been joined by selotape!

Meridiens ARE the best DMU's in the country today, you can't really deny that

 

[Metroland]

Where does that figure come from, seeing as most European HSRs have ruling gradients up to double the steepness? If we've got any sense we will copy these very successful European models as much as possible to maximum effect

From the Stategic business case document, which, like all the others I took time to read:

Page 24 on the PDF

Maximum Gradient

3.8 The maximum gradient is assumed to be 1 in 55 on the 200mph route sections. This
represents the maximum gradient that a train with AGV performance and traction
characteristics can negotiate without compromising this speed of operation, and
therefore, point to point journey times. This has been established through a RailSys
simulation.

This is roughly similar to the motorway gradients, for some reason I have an idea the average gradient on the M6 in the Midlands 1 in 55 too, with a max of 1 in 36. French TGV lines go to a max of 3.5% which is 1 in 28.57, similar to motorways, although motorways have typically 1500 meter radius curves while for a HSL 5000-7000 meters is the norm.

 

[LucaZone]

One question from myself,

Does anyone know why Warrington needs to have a direct link? Is getting off at Liverpool/Manchester/Preston (which are all equi-distant from Warrington) not enough?

 

[Daimler]

I am interested to know where the London and Birmingham terminus's would be.

In the 'synopsis' for the new line, Network Rail state that 'for London, the terminal is assumed to have good tube connections, and to take advantage of good links with HS1, close to St Pancras.'

I've read that a rebuilt (and presumably extended!) Euston station would make the ideal new terminus for HS2...

 

[krus_aragon]

One question from myself,

Does anyone know why Warrington needs to have a direct link? Is getting off at Liverpool/Manchester/Preston (which are all equi-distant from Warrington) not enough?

The only reason I see for it is in lieu of a station at Crewe: for passengers coming from the existing network (e.g. me in North Wales) to join the HS services, and for HS customers coming south from Scotland to change for the Liverpool branch.

 

[Metroland]

If I'm really honest I can't see it going much further north than Preston. A HSL to Preston itself would knock over 1 hour from journey times, which could capture 70% of the air market in central Scotland anyway. Virgin are taking about 50% just with current improvements to the WCML. If you want more freight capacity use the S&C and GSW.

I reckon, with the likely lobbying there is more chance of a spur coming off and going to to Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle. The Rugby to Newcastle line is a not dissimilar distance from Preston to Glasgow. Except at least the Newcastle line services far more population centres.

If you really wanted to put the icing on the cake, reopen Woodhead and run a conventional 125mph between the junction with the HSL just north of Sheffield to the HSL at Manchester, making a golden triangle.

 

[Kneedown]

Disagree, have you commuted in the Leeds or Manchester area lately? Pacers my friend, hideous, and without bogies on track that seems to have been joined by selotape!

Meridiens ARE the best DMU's in the country today, you can't really deny that

Pacers aren't Sprinters, although i do agree they are hideous. Ride quality aside though they are no worse than our 153's, and from a cab quality point of view, they are superior!
Our Sprinters are generally held together with gaffer tape, leak and break!
Even the refurb 158's are falling apart already!
As regards Meridians, we don't touch them at Nottingham. Sprinters and HST's only here i'm afraid.

 

[j0hn0]

From the Stategic business case document, which, like all the others I took time to read:

Page 24 on the PDF

Maximum Gradient

3.8 The maximum gradient is assumed to be 1 in 55 on the 200mph route sections. This
represents the maximum gradient that a train with AGV performance and traction
characteristics can negotiate without compromising this speed of operation, and
therefore, point to point journey times. This has been established through a RailSys
simulation.

This is roughly similar to the motorway gradients, for some reason I have an idea the average gradient on the M6 in the Midlands 1 in 55 too, with a max of 1 in 36. French TGV lines go to a max of 3.5% which is 1 in 28.57, similar to motorways, although motorways have typically 1500 meter radius curves while for a HSL 5000-7000 meters is the norm.

Frankfurt - Köln has maximum gradients of 4% and so only ICE3's with distributed power are allowed on them.

Just recently took some photos for anyone who wants to look

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26090

search 4 TheJ0hn0 on youtube and you will see the vids.

Very difficult to get a photo because trains aren't as frequent as a normal line and then when they do appear, you have to decide whether to take a photo or a video

IMO this is the most ambitious high speed construction plan. They also carved out a huge hole in the middle of Köln Bonn airport and built a station there.

Civil engineering, ask the germans

Electrics though, forget it
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pacers aren't Sprinters, although i do agree they are hideous. Ride quality aside though they are no worse than our 153's, and from a cab quality point of view, they are superior!
Our Sprinters are generally held together with gaffer tape, leak and break!
Even the refurb 158's are falling apart already!
As regards Meridians, we don't touch them at Nottingham. Sprinters and HST's only here i'm afraid.

yeah but what i was alluding to was that pacers are generally much worse than sprinters. But I will concede that all sprinters truly are awful, nothern have quite a few of those too!

I would prefer an HST over a meridien though, just because i don't like sitting on top of an engine

 

[Waverley125]

are you actualy having a joke? HS2 should serve Liverpool, which only recieves 1tph but shouldn't serve Leeds, which as 2 and needs 3. I think you're making some sort of judgment on the 'rep' of the city, and not the actual market. Leeds is bigger than both Manchester and Liverpool, it's Britain's 3rd largest city. Yet HS2 won't go there? madness.

Basically, NR have designed a route to alleviate congestion on the WCML, which, seeing as it's just had a multibillionpound upgrade, i very strongly object to. The MML & ECML need to be alleviated to enhance capacity & reduce journey times to Yorkshire & the north East, and this is the logical route to the north, as there's no way HS will be allowed to be built through the lune gorge, so the only option will be to use the existing WCML north of Preston.

 

[monkey]

Leeds is bigger than both Manchester and Liverpool, it's Britain's 3rd largest city. Yet HS2 won't go there? madness.

^^this is one of many reasons why I hate living in leeds - it has delusions of grandeur. it is not the 3rd largest city, Liverpool and Manchester are much larger...

edit: also not sure I want hs2 to edinburgh/glasgow, mainly cos it probs mean the end of the caledonian sleeper, which I adore...

 

[tony_mac]

Well, the city of Leeds does have a larger population than the city of Manchester; but the city of Manchester is fairly small; having Salford, Trafford, etc. very nearby.
Greater Manchester certainly has a larger population than West Yorkshire if you compare the metropolitan area.

 

[flymo]

It's been an interesting week for Network Rail. Proposing a new high speed railway and now 1800 job cuts.

 

[EWS 58038]

It would make sense to build a link to Edinburgh since it's the capital of Scotland (keeps the bloody SNP happy) and has a population of about 400,00, which I think would justify a high speed line. It's also the 2nd most popular tourist destination after London so a high speed line might help the tourist trade. However, that won't be much use if the fares are too high. Given that London-Manchester is something ridiculous (£220 before 0930), the fares on this new high speed line would have to be fairly reasonable e.g. £80 for London - Edinburgh return which is about the same as most budget airlines (excluding airport taxes, baggage charges etc.)

Ever heared of a Britrailpass for tourists? We don't pay that much . Oh... and if you work for the railways in the netherlands for example... you travel for 5 pounds a day... unlimited.

 

[j0hn0]

^^this is one of many reasons why I hate living in leeds - it has delusions of grandeur. it is not the 3rd largest city, Liverpool and Manchester are much larger...

aint that the truth

I always noticed though that on some forums, the Leeds Manchester debate (who has the biggest c()ck) is hard to discuss because of the demographics of the areas.

I think the only way to compare is West Yorkshire to Greater Manchester.

Either way, 2 massive connurbations, it shouldn't be "which one" High Speed serves, but both.

There HAS to be a new line across the pennines between the 2 major northern economies.

 

[Waverley125]

Well, the city of Leeds does have a larger population than the city of Manchester; but the city of Manchester is fairly small; having Salford, Trafford, etc. very nearby.
Greater Manchester certainly has a larger population than West Yorkshire if you compare the metropolitan area.

Greater Manchester (Manchester, Salford, Eccles, Altrincham, Stockport, Oldham, Bury, Bolton, Wigan, Trafford, Rochdale) Population: 2.526 million

Leeds City Region (Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield, York, Harrogate, Keighley, Barnsley, Pontefract, Castleford, Selby, Halifax) Population: 2.941 million

I'm not saying manchester shouldn't be served, it should, but it is vital that West Yorkshire is also served, and it is on the logical route to Edinburgh and Newcastle.

A London-Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow is probably the best line to start off with, but gaps must then be filled in, such as Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham-London and Manchester-Glasgow.

The point is, that as most of the congestion is south of Manchester on the WCML, going north to glasgow and ignoring the equally congested transpennine mainline is plain damn stupid.

 

[Daimler]

edit: also not sure I want hs2 to edinburgh/glasgow, mainly cos it probs mean the end of the caledonian sleeper, which I adore...

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic - in France, Corail Lunéa sleeping-car trains operate to destinations where TGVs travel to during the day - after all, even with a high-speed line to Scotland, Fort William will take a while to reach!

 

[Metroland]

Not to mention the city night line trains around Germany and Switzerland. I took the overnight 'hotel' train once between Berlin and Zurich, only to find it headed out of Berlin onto the Hanover High speed line which we had not long roared along at over 150mph in an ICE earlier in the day! Obviously at a more sedate pace.

I'm not entirely sure which route that train took overnight (daylight was next seen running through the Swiss Alps in the bar car the next day) but I reckon a number of high speed lines were used. The German's have a different attitude to the French, who just reserve their lines for TGVs, preferring to build high-speed 'cut off's for use of all trains - there certainly seemed plenty passing in the night.

Point is, despite continental Europe's High speed lines, there still are loads of overnight services.

http://www.citynightline.de/nachtzu...reise/reiseinfo/MDB61843-brosch_re_gb_web.pdf

 

[Mike Redding]

Hmm, It seems that i'm not the only one wondering about a station at Carlisle, it's been on the local news over the last few days.

 

[me123]

Point is, despite continental Europe's High speed lines, there still are loads of overnight services.

Let's assume that this goes ahead. OK, you can now commute from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London. If the train takes 2 hours 10 (say), you can leave Scotland at 6am and arrive at 08:10. Hence, no need for the sleeper but perhaps a huge business opportunity for hotels based at stations.

However, Aberdeen is a huge oil city and will be for the next 40 years at least. There are no plans for High Speed Rail to The Granite City. As such, Glasgow-London will be a shorter journey time than Glasgow-Aberdeen! Aberdeen would still easily warrant a sleeper IMO, and probably Inverness could as well.

 

[johnb]

However, Aberdeen is a huge oil city and will be for the next 40 years at least. There are no plans for High Speed Rail to The Granite City. As such, Glasgow-London will be a shorter journey time than Glasgow-Aberdeen! Aberdeen would still easily warrant a sleeper IMO, and probably Inverness could as well.

I've heard some mumblings from the Scottish Government about an HSL from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, as an extension of London-Edinburgh and Glasgow-Edinburgh.

 

[me123]

I would not be surprised if they wanted to do this. You'd struggle to improve journey times from Edinburgh-Dundee alone because of restrictions with the current track (too busy, too slow and no room for expansion to 4-track). Even with High Speed Rail, though, Aberdeen could still benefit from a sleeper.

 

[monkey]

Leeds City Region (Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield, York, Harrogate, Keighley, Barnsley, Pontefract, Castleford, Selby, Halifax) Population: 2.941 million

...I'm sorry but you can't include Bradford, York or Wakefield in Leeds, they are towns with themselves - york isn't even in west yorkshire...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic - in France, Corail Lunéa sleeping-car trains operate to destinations where TGVs travel to during the day - after all, even with a high-speed line to Scotland, Fort William will take a while to reach!

...hopefully!!!

 

[tony_mac]

Comparing Leeds City Region to Greater Manchester does seem a bit arbitrary. That includes York and Barnsley, but not Warrington or Macclesfield etc. Whichever way you do it, the populations are vaguely similar.

I must admit that a decent high-speed Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds link would make more sense to me than just the spurs to Liverpool and Manchester. If it connected well then it wouldn't add much on to the journey time, would provide greater frequency, and we could finally have some reasonable cross-pennine journey times.

Maybe 45mph was considered 'express' in 1850, but now.....

 

[Waverley125]

..I'm sorry but you can't include Bradford, York or Wakefield in Leeds, they are towns with themselves - york isn't even in west yorkshire...

Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Altrincham...all separate towns to Manchester. Salford's a separate city. And Stockport's not even in Lancashire...

Comparing Leeds City Region to Greater Manchester does seem a bit arbitrary. That includes York and Barnsley, but not Warrington or Macclesfield etc. Whichever way you do it, the populations are vaguely similar.

I must admit that a decent high-speed Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds link would make more sense to me than just the spurs to Liverpool and Manchester. If it connected well then it wouldn't add much on to the journey time, would provide greater frequency, and we could finally have some reasonable cross-pennine journey times.

Maybe 45mph was considered 'express' in 1850, but now.....

True. Either way, draw a 25 mile radius circle around both and you'll have a population around 3 million.

Basically, HS2 needs to serve both Leeds and Manchester, Liverpool I'd argue is a long way second, probably on a level with Newcastle & Sheffield for the next line extensions. Connecting Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-York-Newcastle would take huge strain off of the TP mainline, as well as slashing journey times. If Leeds-Piccadilly is only 42 miles, an HS train should be able to do it in 20 minutes tops-half the journey time currently possible.