Now the Tories are out - can we stop blatantly ripping our own citizens off?

[Benjwri]

Make it so the only way for TOCs to make their profits is by earning performance bonuses (cancellations, punctuality, cleanliness, etc) while having all ticket revenue flow straight into a single national pot.

This is quite literally how the system works for the majority of TOCs post Covid, for better of worse.

I do agree with the OP though that there has been vast, undocumented, fare rise on GWR. When I first went to university (21/22) I would buy Advance fares the day before travel, and they would be cheaper than a Super Off Peak return. Now the advance fares don't even undercut an Off Peak return when I try book 2 months in advance. Even looking at trips on Bristol to London an Off Peak ticket is cheaper, 2 months in advance.

In my opinion this isn't political. The GWR network has seen huge fare increases by stealth. That's something that needs to be called out, because changes like that should be justified if they are made. Especially given the LNER trial, because they didn't increase quotas there, so if GWR did bin Off Peak tickets on intercity routes the increases would be huge.

 

[signed]

I think you'd be surprised if you saw some of the complexity in other European markets - but it's good Daily Mail print to get people wound up and put Britain down as usual.

On the surface, the UK does have the most confusing fare and routing system in all the western railways. There may be more complicated systems elsewhere.

Germany has very clear routing codes, allowing you not to go deep in the `Any permitted route` disaster.

These are all products that European railways employ to keep prices reasonable for their citizens.

In France, your employer is required to pay for 50% of your commuting public transport, universally. I find it to be a very fair system

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And what about Crewe -> Manchester tickets, "route Avanti", priced at 10p less than their "Any Permitted" alternatives.

That was pretty much my point in post 13 above, just Wilmslow rather than Crewe, they’re like this in loads of places.

Same from Macclesfield. As a further observation, these 10p cheaper "route Avanti" tickets are only valid as far as Manchester Piccadilly. Not so good if you then want to continue to Oxford Road, Deansgate or Manchester Vic.

 

[greatkingrat]

In France, your employer is required to pay for 50% of your commuting public transport, universally. I find it to be a very fair system

That doesn't sound very fair to me. Why should one employee who lives 50 miles away get a subsidy from their employer, when the employee who lives 10 minutes walk away gets nothing?

 

[signed]

when the employee who lives 10 minutes walk away gets nothing?

Because they don't pay anything to go to work? Public transport is mostly seen as a tax by everyone here.

There is also a provision to subsidise (up to 700€ per year) bike and other sustainable methods commute in the same fashion, but it's up to the company to implement it

 

[yorksrob]

In France, your employer is required to pay for 50% of your commuting public transport, universally. I find it to be a very fair system

That's good, however I'd prefer a product that could be used for leisure as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2024 ==

I would have no problem if the booking engines were made to show both the Advance product and the more flexible product next to each other with incredibly clear descriptions of the respective restrictions/flexibility. That is not what happens.

I would be even more happy if Advance fares had to be at least 20% less than the relevant flexible fare as that seems like a reasonable delta for the much worse terms and conditions.

I would be much more relaxed about it all if we got rid of the rule that you cannot upgrade an Advance fare to the relevant flexible fare for that service. As it is, the jeopardy of potentially missing a booked train (because of the railway, a bus, a traffic jam, 100 other things) and having to fork out serious additional and for many people unaffordable amounts of cash means knowing about the similar priced more flexible option is really important.

These would be good rules to avoid the fleecing of the travelling public.

 

[signed]

That's good, however I'd prefer a product that could be used for leisure as well.

There are quite a few things done depending on which region you reside in and where you work

Some regions (Like Occitanie) have a scheme where if you travel X number of times on the regional network you have free passage on the whole network for the rest of the month.

Others will have a thing where your commute line transport subscription gives you 25/50% on the rest of the network (Gold card-like).

A few employers will pay for your SNCF Advantage card as a perk.

 

[modernrail]

There are quite a few things done depending on which region you reside in and where you work

Some regions (Like Occitanie) have a scheme where if you travel X number of times on the regional network you have free passage on the whole network for the rest of the month.

Others will have a thing where your commute line transport subscription gives you 25/50% on the rest of the network (Gold card-like).

A few employers will pay for your SNCF Advantage card as a perk.

I would probably qualify for the Occitaine type scheme every year if there was an equivalent national UK scheme. I really wish we would consider something like these schemes. Let’s say you hit £1500 a year - you are entitled to something meaningful. Not per TOC, an overall spend on UK railways.

As it stands we reward occasional users who can book well in advance much more than regular users who put many more pounds into the system - which is odd really. Especially when it also means you have just sold some of your seats much cheaper than they would otherwise have been sold.

 

[signed]

Let’s say you hit £1500 a year - you are entitled to something meaningful. Not per TOC, an overall spend on UK railways.

I would love to see the new scheme in Switzerland implemented wider, because it entices a lot people to travel on the trains

https://www.sbb.ch/en/tickets-offers/travelcards/ha

You deposit 800 to 2000CHF/year and you get a 200 to 900CHF bonus credit

If you travel less than your deposit at the end of the year, your deposit gets refunded but you loose your bonus. If you travel more than your deposit, you have the bonus to cover

 

[modernrail]

I would love to see the new scheme in Switzerland implemented wider, because it entices a lot people to travel on the trains

https://www.sbb.ch/en/tickets-offers/travelcards/ha

You deposit 800 to 2000CHF/year and you get a 200 to 900CHF bonus credit

If you travel less than your deposit at the end of the year, your deposit gets refunded but you loose your bonus. If you travel more than your deposit, you have the bonus to cover

That sounds great as well.

We seem to be missing out on a rather significant set of ideas here. These are the sorts of things that might encourage proper model shift/dropping of 2 cars per household to one rather than the current obsession with a ticketing system that seems focussed with blocking up end to end capacity supporting day trips to London to see (newly re-released and I am sure magnificent) Starlight Express.

 

[signed]

the current obsession with a ticketing system that seems focussed with blocking up end to end capacity supporting day trips to London to see (newly re-released and I am sure magnificent) Starlight Express.

The main issue with the UK ticketing system is the massive amount of different restriction codes

Drop those, maybe keep a simple shortlist, and the ticketing becomes a lot more efficient

 

[yorkie]

I use trains extremely regularly in Europe. Ticketing is substantially less complex.....

OK, how easy is it to plan a journey and obtain tickets from Malgrat de Mar to Torremolinos (Spain)?

Or from Catanzaro to Como (Italy)?

Can I get a ticket that is really simple for these journeys, and can I take any reasonable route?

Is it really easier to plan such journeys in countries such as Spain, Italy, France than for comparable journeys in Britain?

My attempt at the former was that it is impossible to even plan the journey; the latter has most itineraries greyed out, and the itineraries that are possible involve 4 tickets, one of which required the passenger to "check in" (as if it's an airline!) with all sorts of warnings about being non-transferable, requiring ID, etc.

The GB system isn't perfect, but be careful what you wish for, as there's no way I'd swap it for the systems that exist in the above named countries.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

because the latter pay a very significant part of the costs of running the railways.

A vast number of taxpayers pay into a health service they will rarely use, not to mention the benefits system. You don't have to be a direct recipient of all taxpayer spend to benefit given the positive externalities of railways: less congestion on roads, less pollution etc. "Railways are a cost, roads are investment"

 

[signed]

If you get out of the fact those countries run on mandatory reservation trains, Italy and France are FAR from the worst ones. Spain is Spain.

the latter has most itineraries greyed out

The trains northbound seem be quite full at this time of the year in Italy. Looking a bit forward, it's perfectly easy to book such a trip on Trenitalia.

required the passenger to "check in" (as if it's an airline!)

Checking in is just a convenience feature on Frecce where you confirm in the app you're in the train at your reserved seat. Once you confirm, it will pop up on the conductor's tablet, allowing you to not be disturbed for revenue. It's absolutely not required.

 

[redreni]

In France, your employer is required to pay for 50% of your commuting public transport, universally. I find it to be a very fair system

Whereas in the UK, an employer can provide a free parking space to an employee without suffering any tax, but if they chose to chip in for the same exployee's season ticket that would be considered a taxable benefit.

 

[weeklycommuter]

The solution is never buy advance tickets. I never buy advance tickets and I have made this clear to all train operators. I only buy anytime or off peak tickets and if the fare is too high I do not travel by train.

 

[JamesT]

Whereas in the UK, an employer can provide a free parking space to an employee without suffering any tax, but if they chose to chip in for the same exployee's season ticket that would be considered a taxable benefit.

That’s starting to change. Nottingham were the first to introduce a levy on employers providing parking to their employees. Other cities are planning to do the same.

 

[mwmbwls]

That’s starting to change. Nottingham were the first to introduce a levy on employers providing parking to their employees. Other cities are planning to do the same.

The funds which were raised were then reinvested in their Tram System.

 

[modernrail]

The solution is never buy advance tickets. I never buy advance tickets and I have made this clear to all train operators. I only buy anytime or off peak tickets and if the fare is too high I do not travel by train.

This is generally my approach as well. I am not just thinking of myself here, I hate to see anybody ripped off.

My exception is the cheap advances that seem to be available last minute more than before on local services. Seems bonkers revenue wise they are available but if I am literally walking towards the train and they are there - why not!

Not sure other counties generally extend availability of advance fixed tickets to local services?

 

[TUC]

The solution is never buy advance tickets. I never buy advance tickets and I have made this clear to all train operators. I only buy anytime or off peak tickets and if the fare is too high I do not travel by train.

The attitude of a person with money to waste. Most people want the cheapest fare that meets their travel requirements.

 

[yorksrob]

The main issue with the UK ticketing system is the massive amount of different restriction codes

Drop those, maybe keep a simple shortlist, and the ticketing becomes a lot more efficient

Indeed. Go back to some ticketing principles but remove the complexity in this area

It's funny, Governments are always keen on "cutting red tape" but when it comes to fleecing passengers it's a case of the more red tape the better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==

The attitude of a person with money to waste. Most people want the cheapest fare that meets their travel requirements.

That's primarily because anytime fares are often unjustifiably extortionate.

I've been known to buy lots of advance purchase on many occasions, but on others I enjoy the flexibility of a super-off peak long distance. Depends on the circumstance.

 

[Haywain]

That's primarily because anytime fares are often unjustifiably extortionate.

Which makes spending more as a matter of principle a very odd form of protest.

 

[redreni]

Which makes spending more as a matter of principle a very odd form of protest.

If you pay attention to what the chap said, though, he's not necessarily paying more as he often uses other modes when the flexible train fare is, in his view, too high. And when he does travel by train, presumably he benefits from the flexibility of Anytime or off-peak tickets.

Boycotting the railway where no sensibly priced flexible fare is offered could be a powerful form of protest if it was an organised thing with mass participation. One person doing it seems like whistling in the wind to me, though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Boycotting the railway where no sensibly priced flexible fare is offered could be a powerful form of protest if it was an organised thing with mass participation. One person doing it seems like whistling in the wind to me, though.

Certainly if the railway goes the way of the LNER trial I am likely to use it a lot less. Not because of a boycott specifically, but because only the car will offer the price and flexibility combination I want, whereas at present (Super) Off Peak Returns (or a pair of Super Off Peak Singles in LNER's case) normally offer it. If this does happen I'll probably get myself a nice EV and just use that.

I suspect however due to the very small market share rail has on most flows outside the South East it'll easily replace me with someone who's either willing to plan earlier or pay more (or both), so it won't care. But then I start to really resent my taxes subsidising it.

 

[Haywain]

If you pay attention to what the chap said, though, he's not necessarily paying more as he often uses other modes when the flexible train fare is, in his view, too high. And when he does travel by train, presumably he benefits from the flexibility of Anytime or off-peak tickets.

Thank you for your interpretation of what was said, but I was also responding to a later comment, if you pay attention.

 

[HullRailMan]

The title is purposefully political.

One of the more egregious practices that the Tories allowed to creep in during their terms was pricing Advance fares ridiculously close to the more flexible fare.

I am currently sat on a pretty much empty GWR service for which the only offer of an Advance is priced at 90p less than the off peak fare.

Meanwhile there is a gibberish not promotion on the GWR website called ‘SponTRAINeous’ that says from 28 May to 27 September, Advance fares might be available on GWR trains. No details on what on earth this actually means - beyond the position that always exists outside of those dates. The booking button just links to the normal booking engine.

Also completely mixed messaging between this and the new fashion for telling you you need to book in advance at all costs.

I have also noticed my Trainline bookings for GWR for completely standard fares keep making me pick them up rather than offering an e-ticket. Why??? Just feels like reduced options to try and catch you out.


Some GWR on-board staff are pretty decent in general but the whole GWR set-up on tickets is a joke, that a publicly funded railway should not play.

I so hope the new Rail Minister clamps down on sharp practices like this as a priority.

So, you’re concerned about being ‘ripped off’ but are voluntarily using Trainline and paying unnecessary fees. Makes sense.

Every mile you travel by train is already heavily subsidised by people that never set foot on a train. How much more would you like them to pay?

 

[Watershed]

Every mile you travel by train is already heavily subsidised by people that never set foot on a train. How much more would you like them to pay?

The amount of taxpayer subsidy is exactly the same regardless of whether any particular passenger sets foot on a train. Indeed to a large extent it is the same even if thousands of additional passengers set foot on a train, because the vast majority of the railway's running costs are fixed and services only adjust to demand in a very slow and limited fashion. Those who never set foot on a train still benefit from increases in the number of people travelling by train, because it results in less congestion and pollution on the roads.

More to the point, I think @modernrail only wants to return to the position that existed before the substantial fare increases that were sneaked through in the last couple of years. Hardly seems an outlandish aspiration; they're not even asking for the UK to match the continental levels of subsidy which allow for decent train services at affordable prices.

 

[Sonic1234]

Every mile you travel by train is already heavily subsidised by people that never set foot on a train. How much more would you like them to pay?

I expect this point is lost of the vast majority of the public. Most will see rail as a state-sanctioned extortion racket, making super profits for fat-cat bosses and foreign owners.

The idea that it can not cover its costs will be unbelievable to many.

I have come across a lot who never consider the train because they once looked at the price for a medium/long distance trip and were shocked. While there are a few people who have the attitude of "I have a car, why would I travel any other way", many more would consider rail at a lower price (or an easily accessible lower price).

 

[Benjwri]

Most will see rail as a state-sanctioned extortion racket, making super profits for fat-cat bosses and foreign owners.

Although it is, given the current setup. The TOC’s make a profit whatever, their profit is fixed, except opportunities to increase it through meeting targets. Their franchise could hemorrhage money and it wouldn’t matter to them, the government takes all the risk.

Of course this will all change soon.

 

[modernrail]

So, you’re concerned about being ‘ripped off’ but are voluntarily using Trainline and paying unnecessary fees. Makes sense.

Every mile you travel by train is already heavily subsidised by people that never set foot on a train. How much more would you like them to pay?

I did not say I bought the ticket Trainline offered. I always check on about 3 platforms before buying these days - because there are al sorts of discrepancies knocking around the ever more complex system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2024 ==

Although it is, given the current setup. The TOC’s make a profit whatever, their profit is fixed, except opportunities to increase it through meeting targets. Their franchise could hemorrhage money and it wouldn’t matter to them, the government takes all the risk.

Of course this will all change soon.

Thank the heavens it will change soon. Whilst tempting to accept the current position as a strange hang over from Covid, I still massively struggle to get my head around why the DfT would ever have sanctioned the set-up in its current form. It feels like furlough, PPE and Covid loans, to be severely lacking in attention to detail - which has resulted in billions of pounds of waste. Criminal.