Now for an express rail link [Trans-Pennine]

[Metroland]

TRAIN times between Calderdale, Leeds and Manchester could be slashed with a new high-speed inter-city service.

Trains would cut journeys from Halifax to Leeds to just 25 minutes.

And the current 55-minute journey to Manchester would be little more than half an hour.

The idea is the brainchild of Ian Yeowart, the man who successfully fought for a direct Halifax to London King's Cross rail link. The new service would be an hourly Liverpool to Hull express on the Caldervale line.

It would stop at Hebden Bridge and Halifax but miss out other Calderdale stations to speed up the service.

Mr Yeowart, who is currently meeting Network Rail, the Office of Railways Regulation and various operators about the possibility of creating the new service, said: "There is certainly a lack of competition when it comes to trans-Pennine routes.

"We believe there is a very good business case for opening up this new service – it would improve services and there would be plenty of support for it."

The fastest current train time from Halifax to Manchester is 45 minutes. But that service runs only once an hour. Most trains take 55 minutes.

If the scheme is given the go-ahead, Mr Yeowart would look at working with a
train operator to run the service.

Although a similar proposal was turned down in 2004, Mr Yeowart – currently working for his own AO Consultants company – believes circumstances have now changed. "Last time they did not think our business plan was good enough," he said.

"But we have learned from those mistakes, taken on the experience from getting the London service passed and could put together a proposal that is very appealing indeed."

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/Now-for-an-express-rail.5472265.jp

 

[me123]

A worthwhile scheme that will be turned down. Bear in mind that the route will not serve London.

Would this route be any feasible competition to the current Transpennine service, which is very frequent and relatively fast? I believe that the existing TPE route is a good service, but does deserve some speed improvements to make it more competitive. Lord Adonis himself said that the name "Transpennine Express" is a bit of a misnomer considering the relatively slow speeds.

 

[Metroland]

Well parts of the Line across the Pennines is 85mph, and the rest is quite decent. Think its slow as it stops everywhere.

 

[tbtc]

The new service would be an hourly Liverpool to Hull express on the Caldervale line.

It would stop at Hebden Bridge and Halifax but miss out other Calderdale stations to speed up the service

Would be interested to see how he's planning on dealing with the Bradford reverse - a messy pinchpoint that needs to be sorted out.

Can't see any real justification for an open access operator on this line tbh

 

[Aictos]

Why not let FTPE run it as a express service and run the current services as semi fasts?

 

[Waverley125]

because TPE doesn't serve Halifax & Calderdale, it serves Huddersfield. We really do need to stop thinking of lines such as the TP as 'cross country' lines, it's a mainline, which, in Hull, Leeds, Manchester & Liverpool links 4 of Northern England's biggest cities together. The fact that the Leeds-Manchester service average less than a mile a minute is utterly shambolic. The whole line needs upgrading to 100mph throughout.

 

[Bayum]

I remember when my dad was section manager at Huddersfield a way back, and there were some rumours and apparent plans to make the track 100mph, as there were a few curves and areas which obviously had to be checked, and looked at - and it was upto my dads team to do it

 

[ffcphone]

Well parts of the Line across the Pennines is 85mph, and the rest is quite decent. Think its slow as it stops everywhere.

I'm only familiar with the fTPE's Blackpool and Scottish services but for the Winter 2009 timetable, daytime stops at smaller stations were removed and between Preston and Bolton, for example, fTPE services now only stop once at Chorley or twice at Chorley and Horwich Parkway, leaving Northern Rail to deal with the smaller stations of Leyland, Adlington, Blackrod and Lostock. Whilst quicker journeys aren't significantly quicker it does now feel more like an "express", at least on this part of the journey.

Can fTPE not do something similar on east pennine routes without upsetting too many people?

F

 

[Bayum]

There is no other service really to the intermediate stops served by fTPE....

Like, Northallerton... Not sure how often thats served...
And then the other two on the way up from the ECML Thirsk, and the other one...

 

[gordonthemoron]

Chester le Street?

 

[Bayum]

Chester le Street?

I dont know... Cos I only ever travelled to Middlesbrough on the train...

And it was Thirsk, *********, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby and Middlesbrough

Unless im totally making this up...

 

[D841]

because TPE doesn't serve Halifax & Calderdale, it serves Huddersfield. We really do need to stop thinking of lines such as the TP as 'cross country' lines, it's a mainline, which, in Hull, Leeds, Manchester & Liverpool links 4 of Northern England's biggest cities together. The fact that the Leeds-Manchester service average less than a mile a minute is utterly shambolic. The whole line needs upgrading to 100mph throughout.

And, as I posted elsewhere, fill-in electrification to enable some services to be worked by electric trains.

 

[poshbakerloo]

The Transpennine are so slow to travel on. I have to go Stockport and Sheffield several times...and its not far but takes ages even when you don't stop anywhere...

 

[flymo]

.

And it was Thirsk, *********, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby and Middlesbrough

There's no station between Thirsk and Northallerton on the ECML.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The Transpennine are so slow to travel on. I have to go Stockport and Sheffield several times...and its not far but takes ages even when you don't stop anywhere...

The Transpennine Services across from Stockport to Sheffield are slow because the Class 185 units are heavy blundering machines that are restricted on speed on that route. Go on one of 170's on that journey, and you will find it faster. There are more 185s cropping up on Hull services at the moment, and they can only travel at the lower 'loco' speed as opposed to 'sprinter' speed on the route to Hull, so it seems painfully slow going on a 185 instead of a 170.

As regards North Transpennine between Manchester and Leeds, there are a number of pinchpoints which make the journey so slow. Stalybridge - Man Picc is the worst, with Guide Bridge Junction being particularly bad. The line speed all the way along is particularly slow and if you get stuck behind another train between Guide Bridge and Ardwick (which seems to be about 75% of the time), then it seems even worse. Going direct from Stalybridge into Victoria is quicker, but that means you can't get to the Airport, and misses out on most of the important connections to wales etc that are afforded at Piccadilly. Going via Victoria would only benefit the Liverpool service, but that would then pose all sorts of traincrew problems as Piccadilly is the main relieving point for Drivers and Guards as TPE has no depot at Victoria or Liverpool.

Another point is the section between Heaton Lodge Junction (Mirfield) to Dewsbury and Leeds, where since the introduction of more Northern services via the Calder Valley, the L&Y lines then going via Dewsbury to Leeds, the chances of catching up a slow train in front is high. Even if not running late, there are a few services which are actually timed to follow stoppers from Batley onwards, thus ensuring that you go very slowly and think you are late, when in fact the timetable is just padded out to take this into account.

Station calls are in fact fairly limited on that route. The Airport Trains stop at York, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield and Manchester Piccadilly, with one of them also stopping at Garforth between York and Leeds. The Liverpools stop at York, Leeds, Huddersfield, Stalybridge and Piccadilly, with the Hull's being the fastest just stopping at Leeds, Huddersfield and Piccadilly. If you missed out the Dewsbury and Stalybridge stops you would be turning away a lot of revenue, upset a lot of passengers, and there are no other suitable services that would fill the gaps (TPE provide the only service from Stalybridge to Manchester Picc for example, and there is only 1 Northern stopper which runs all stations Leeds to Huddersfield each hour).

The fastest routes from Manchester to Leeds, are in my experiences either Man Vic to Leeds via Huddersfield, or Man Vic to Leeds direct via the Calder Valley and L&Y lines missing out Huddersfield. We go this way on certain winter sundays when engineering works are going on, and they can be a lot quicker.

The main way to enhance the service on both Leeds - Manchester routes and speed things up would be to reverse the rationalisation from years ago - and reintroduce 4 track running in places or put some loops back in. Along either of those lines, unfortunately, once you get behind something slow you are stuck behind it for a long way! Combine this with a tart up of Victoria Station to make it useable (rather than the current dingy, pigeon and tramp infested dump it is now), some selective 'fast' services Leeds to Manchester Non- Stop (running via Dewsbury, the L&Y lines, the Calder Valley into Victoria, and possibly down the Chat Moss to Liverpool at that end / and Newcastle at the North), then the service would be a lot better. This would free up seats on the 'semi - fast ' services via Dewsbury & Huddersfield for passengers to or from those stations.

This suggestion would also fulfill Merseytravel's desire for a 2nd TPE train an hour, which for crew purposes could interwork with the services via Warrington and Piccadilly. Thus, two TPEs and hour from Liverpool. One going Liverpool to Scarborough as now with the same stops, one going Liverpool - Newcastle - Calling Man Vic, Leeds, York and then up the ECML. It would require good timetabling though to prevent trains following and getting stuck behind each other.

 

[D841]

(most snipped)

This suggestion would also fulfill Merseytravel's desire for a 2nd TPE train an hour, which for crew purposes could interwork with the services via Warrington and Piccadilly. Thus, two TPEs and hour from Liverpool. One going Liverpool to Scarborough as now with the same stops, one going Liverpool - Newcastle - Calling Man Vic, Leeds, York and then up the ECML. It would require good timetabling though to prevent trains following and getting stuck behind each other.

I think the whole post is a pretty fair assessment, but the problem with your last suggestion is that the Calder Valley route doesn't have any spare paths for a fast service, given that it currently only carries one semi-fast service (the path for which was created by diverting a Northern stopper via Dewsbury and knocking out the Walsden stop) and that the rest are pretty well all stations stoppers. It's a faster route than the existing TPE one principally because the route from Piccadilly to Stalybridge is artificial, hence the tight curve at Guide Bridge and back on to the main line at Stalybridge. It's always going to be faster to and from Victoria, and, given that the Transpennine route between Liverpool and Manchester always used to be the one via Chat Moss, which is going to be electrified, surely there is an argument for reverting to this route and electrifying Victoria to Leeds via Stalybridge. I suggest that upgrading the track over the Standedge route would take care of the the speed limitations on the 185s (DB don't have these problems). Getting rid of the freight (re-open Woodhead?) would improve the available paths, as would reinstating or creating some new passing loops (Batley westbound for starters).

Given that, with fill-in electrification to Leeds and York, only York and Newcastle services could be electrically worked, there would still be some diesel services, which could serve the airport via Piccadilly. Personally, I would take Middlesbrough off the TPE network and find some other way of serving it. The Hull and Scarborough services would run one each hourly to the airport, and Newcastle - Liverpool would run every half hour via Victoria, electrically operated. This might create leeway for XC Newcastle terminators to run to and from Middlesbrough instead. It would also relieve the pressure on Piccadilly - Oxford Road - Deansgate.

 

[tbtc]

It's always going to be faster to and from Victoria, and, given that the Transpennine route between Liverpool and Manchester always used to be the one via Chat Moss, which is going to be electrified, surely there is an argument for reverting to this route and electrifying Victoria to Leeds via Stalybridge

I think that's a winner, as long as the Manchester Airport - Leeds links can be sorted somehow - Victoria via Stalybridge would be a better route for most Tranpennine flows (and half hourly Newcastle to Liverpool sounds interesting!)

 

[Failed Unit]

Just going back to the connections at Piccadilly should some of the TPE services run via Victoria point. Would passengers for North Wales be able to change at Newton-Le-Willows? I know Warrington would miss out and wouldn't really want a direct service changing to a connecting one. Going north and Preston / Blackpool has services from Victoria anyway. I guess people for the airport would take a direct train if they can anyway, but if they could not they could change back at Huddersfield. I guess the other main losers if the Liverpool services was diverted to Victoria would be people coming from Stoke, Macclesfield, Buxton etc. But I wonder if these would be offset by the benefit of the more reliable journey for Liverpool passengers.

I know as well the uncertainty of which station to go to would annoy a lot off passengers, say you just missed the x.00 at Piccadilly now you only have 15 mins to wait for the next one, but you would struggle to get to Victoria in 15 minutes if that is where the next one left from. Can't see things changing much the it would be good to see guide bridge improved!

 

[156499]

FTP should think of this Manchester Airport-Manchester Airport via Leeds, York, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Preston, Bolton, Manchester Stations, Manchester Airport and one that goes via the tyne valley back to Manchester and or via Cumbrian Coast:P crazy idea but there we go lol

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

There is no other service really to the intermediate stops served by fTPE....

Like, Northallerton... Not sure how often thats served...
And then the other two on the way up from the ECML Thirsk, and the other one...

Northallerton is served around every 30 mins, with TPE from Newcastle & Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport.

Also, I know the line goes:
Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Garforth, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly & Manchester Airport.

 

[tbtc]

Northallerton is served around every 30 mins, with TPE from Newcastle & Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport

That's the strange thing about TPE - from Liverpool/ Manchester to York they are an "intercity" service, only stopping at "key" stations.

Then, north of York, they are the "all stops" service, partly as there's no other "local" service (especially since the daytime Northern service from Middlesbrough to Newcastle via Darlington was scrapped).

It's like two franchises in one...

 

[Bayum]

Northallerton is served around every 30 mins, with TPE from Newcastle & Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport.

Also, I know the line goes:
Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Yarm, Northallerton, Thirsk, York, Garforth, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Manchester Piccadilly & Manchester Airport.

But that's what i'm saying... If FTPE got rid of the stop at Northallerton, or halve it say - and how many trains dya get stopping there then ??

 

[D841]

I think that's a winner, as long as the Manchester Airport - Leeds links can be sorted somehow)

My suggestion of running the Hull and Scarborough services each hourly (i.e. on alternate half hours) to Manchester Airport would take care of this. It would serve to maintain the quarter-hourly Leeds - Manchester core service as well (although the 2 Newcastle services would serve Victoria rather than Piccadilly).

I would also electrify Guide Bridge - Stalybridge, and the bit from Deansgate to the Chat Moss line for flexibility (engineering work diversions, etc.).

 

[GNERman]

But that's what i'm saying... If FTPE got rid of the stop at Northallerton, or halve it say - and how many trains dya get stopping there then ??

you don't want to do that, wensley would get very annoyed, and its very useful

 

[Aictos]

Just been thinking, if the Woodhead route still had trains running on it then could we have seen FTPE services over it as a express route bearing in mind I'm not at all familiar with the Woodhead route.

 

[tbtc]

If FTPE got rid of the stop at Northallerton, or halve it say - and how many trains dya get stopping there then ??

There's no way Thirsk/ Northallerton need a better than half hourly service - they used to be about hourly (back when the "Transpennine" service to Newcastle etc was less frequent, when the paths north of Darlington were partly used by Saltburn stoppers).

Maybe the decision is that since TPE are forced onto the "slow" line, they might as well stop every single service there (as well as the handful of London trains)?

Handy on race days, maybe, but not needed all the time

 

[GNERman]

so is this supposed to be an open access company?

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

But that's what i'm saying... If FTPE got rid of the stop at Northallerton, or halve it say - and how many trains dya get stopping there then ??

6 Grand Centrals (3 north, 3 south) - 8 shortly...
A Few NXEC Services.