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Nottingham Station: Access to platforms from footbridge

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Skymonster

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I have a suspicion far more people used that footbridge to change trains than use it as a thoroughfare. On that basis I find it extremely disappointing that this is another example in which the interests of vocal “do gooders” is allowed to take precedence over mass convenience and cost saving (in this case reducing fare evasion).

Sadly in this day and age we make an art form out of inconveniencing the majority or incurring massive costs to assuage self-centred concerns of a minority. There is a simple solution that (a) wouldn’t cost much and (b) protects rail revenue: barrier the bridge and require anyone who wants to walk between Station Street and Queens Road to do so via Carrington Street or London Road.
 
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duffield

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I have a suspicion far more people used that footbridge to change trains than use it as a thoroughfare. On that basis I find it extremely disappointing that this is another example in which the interests of vocal “do gooders” is allowed to take precedence over mass convenience and cost saving (in this case reducing fare evasion).

Sadly in this day and age we make an art form out of inconveniencing the majority or incurring massive costs to assuage self-centred concerns of a minority. There is a simple solution that (a) wouldn’t cost much and (b) protects rail revenue: barrier the bridge and require anyone who wants to walk between Station Street and Queens Road to do so via Carrington Street or London Road.

The "self-centred minority" are defending the basic legal principle of rights of way across the entire country. Allowing rights of way to be extinguished without due legal process because they are "inconvenient" or "not much used" sounds like a recipe for losing much of our network of public footpaths. Attacking the people who defend those rights *for all of us* as being self-centred seems to be the exact opposite of reality to me.

And once again, this is a problem *entirely of the railway's own making* because it was *the railway* that removed the separate right of way bridge for its own convenience. If *the railway* had left that bridge in place, this entire issue would never have arisen. But somehow, it's the fault of these "do gooders" and the "self-centred"? Frankly I totally fail to see any logic in that position.
 

LowLevel

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In this case the deviation isn't exactly mind blowing in terms of going via London Road or Carrington Street - I might just time it for the purpose of science!

In fairness in other respects I think people would be surprised just how many of the well heeled commuters who travel from the likes of Bottesford, Lowdham or Newark have been quite happy to wander in via bridge ignoring the TVM, apps etc and have bank cards at the ready to pay on the train, but equally have been happy to walk out at the other end and appreciate a "free"/"stolen" journey if the guard hasn't got to them by getting off time.

You could happily take a 3 figure sum on an evening peak departure from Nottingham to Grantham or Lincoln, every day.

They are as much to blame as the can't pay/won't pay brigade.
 

Rob F

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Just for interest, here is a photo I took in 1988 that includes the bridge that was removed.
bridge.jpg
 

Allwinter_Kit

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"...this is a problem *entirely of the railway's own making* because it was *the railway* that removed the separate right of way bridge for its own convenience. If *the railway* had left that bridge in place, this entire issue would never have arisen.
Exactly this. Rebuild the bridge that the railway got rid of and the problem goes away. It's a railway-created problem, so the railway needs to find a solution that doesn't notably worsen the outcome for non-railway folk.

Either that or just do revenue protection on the train and catch all those 3 figure sums. If the amount is as high as is being mooted then it should easily pay for itself.

But this speaks to a wider point. Railways need to be integrated into the communities they serve. The railway is a huge severance barrier blocking lots of walking or other routes - especially now level crossings are never a solution. Stations are a key way to cross the tracks (albeit less crucial in a city centre), and maybe a place to pick up a drink and a snack. We should be welcoming people into them rather than locking people out!

So either let the people in (first choice), or keep them on a separate bridge (second choice), but either way, don't be surprised that they are irritated when their longstanding route is blocked!
 
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Julia

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My partner with mobility issues and I were doing weekly trips to Queens Medical Centre at £100 a time - and the much worsened connection onto the tram (the NET lifts to street level have been broken for a while), combined with EMR and Thameslink's combined inability to make connections at Peterborough work, means we're now driving. Shame that form of revenue loss doesn't get considered quite as much as the local freeloader.
 

Nottingham59

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It looks like it would be relatively straightforward to reinstate the footbridge a it was.
Unless modern standards require lifts and ramps on any new structure, even if for a footpath and not a bridleway?
 

Mugby

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I arrived on Platform 4 today off an EMR Matlock - Nottingham train and then walked to Platform 2 to get the 1245 service to Grantham. It's an awfully long trek now and an Eastern end footbridge is desperately needed.

Platform 4 is an absolute abomination, operationally convenient, yes, user friendly, never will be!
 

duffield

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I arrived on Platform 4 today off an EMR Matlock - Nottingham train and then walked to Platform 2 to get the 1245 service to Grantham. It's an awfully long trek now and an Eastern end footbridge is desperately needed.

Platform 4 is an absolute abomination, operationally convenient, yes, user friendly, never will be!
Platform 4? Do you mean "Carlton West" :)

(Or "platform ****" as I refer to it when running late and finding my service departs from there).

It looks like it would be relatively straightforward to reinstate the footbridge a it was.
Unless modern standards require lifts and ramps on any new structure, even if for a footpath and not a bridleway?

It's my understanding that as the current right of way footbridge is not "accessible", a replacement would not need to be either, at least legally speaking.
 

Skymonster

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The "self-centred minority" are defending the basic legal principle of rights of way across the entire country.
This is exactly what I meant. You’d rather we spend millions and millions of pounds on a new bridge when there is a simple alternative which involves non-railway userswalking just a short distance further. If there was no alternative walking route I’d understand, but most people aren’t going to the middle of Queens Road so crossing the railway via London Road or Carrington Street is hardly going out of their way. And no doubt another bridge would cost millions and millions because some other do-gooders will be along to say a new bridge must be a huge structure with ramps and lifts at each side, to enable access for people with reduced mobility. And they’d say this despite the current bridge having only steps, and the bridge that was removed only having steps - so a simple bridge with just steps would hardly be removing some convenience that already exists. As I said, so often in this country we seem to make fairly simple solutions into complex projects, at vast and unnecessary cost.
And once again, this is a problem *entirely of the railway's own making*
We can’t roll back time - it may well have been a mistake to remove the other bridge but its been done. We all know that additional on-train revenue inspection is almost impossible (or would cost a huge amount over time in extra wages) because of the short journeys (Beeston, Carlton, etc) that involved. So the solution would seem to be to build a new bridge or make people walk around the station. I am mystified why anyone should think that rail passengers should effectively end up paying for that bridge in the form of higher fares, which is inevitable if spending continues indiscriminately. And it seems so wasteful to build another bridge at vast cost to the railway (in other words the nation, and rail users) to assuage the feelings of non-rail users who don’t pay anything to use a structure that costs money to maintain, etc when - as I said - there’s a relatively short, easily accessible and flat (i.e. no steps, etc) alternative route.
 

duffield

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This is exactly what I meant. You’d rather we spend millions and millions of pounds on a new bridge when there is a simple alternative which involves non-railway userswalking just a short distance further. If there was no alternative walking route I’d understand, but most people aren’t going to the middle of Queens Road so crossing the railway via London Road or Carrington Street is hardly going out of their way. And no doubt another bridge would cost millions and millions because some other do-gooders will be along to say a new bridge must be a huge structure with ramps and lifts at each side, to enable access for people with reduced mobility. And they’d say this despite the current bridge having only steps, and the bridge that was removed only having steps - so a simple bridge with just steps would hardly be removing some convenience that already exists. As I said, so often in this country we seem to make fairly simple solutions into complex projects, at vast and unnecessary cost.

We can’t roll back time - it may well have been a mistake to remove the other bridge but its been done. We all know that additional on-train revenue inspection is almost impossible (or would cost a huge amount over time in extra wages) because of the short journeys (Beeston, Carlton, etc) that involved. So the solution would seem to be to build a new bridge or make people walk around the station. I am mystified why anyone should think that rail passengers should effectively end up paying for that bridge in the form of higher fares, which is inevitable if spending continues indiscriminately. And it seems so wasteful to build another bridge at vast cost to the railway (in other words the nation, and rail users) to assuage the feelings of non-rail users who don’t pay anything to use a structure that costs money to maintain, etc when - as I said - there’s a relatively short, easily accessible and flat (i.e. no steps, etc) alternative route.
"This is exactly what I meant. You’d rather we spend millions and millions of pounds on a new bridge when there is a simple alternative which involves non-railway users walking just a short distance further."

Untrue. In one of my previous posts I stated that *personally* I had no problem with with the footpath being diverted around the front of the station as long as the proper legal process was followed. I support other people using their legal rights to object; that does not mean I support their actual objections. I think also some confusion has crept into this thread since we've also ended up discussing the possibility of a new bridge for rail passengers in a more favourable (i.e. more central to the platform lengths) position, which would *incidentally* solve the right of way issue by leaving the existing bridge for that purpose. But that's really more of a long-term issue for which the finance may not be available.

Incidentally, you've made a lot of assumptions above about what the "do-gooders" *might* possibly do to increase costs; given that network rail has recently replaced a number of "non-accessible" foot crossings with equally "non accessible" bridges with no legal challenges reported, those assumptions are just that, assumptions.

Anyhow, it's all very well complaining about the situation and the "state of the country", but in this specific case exactly what is your solution, in practical terms?

Given that no matter how much you desire it, wishing that "do-gooders" would just shut up and go away, when they have a legal right to object, is not a practical solution, are you advocating that the railway should just ignore the law and stop up the footpath? Or do you want the law changed so that landowners can stop up a right of way without any legal process? Or maybe some special powers for the railway? What is it that you actually, specifically want to change?
 

Skymonster

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but in this specific case exactly what is your solution, in practical terms?
I’ve told you already: barrier the bridge and direct walkers wanting to cross railway property to go via Queens Street, London Road or Carrington Street, and Station Street.

are you advocating that the railway should just ignore the law and stop up the footpath?
No, but in this case there is clearly an easy solution - outlined immediately above in this reply - that has a marginal impact on anyone and yet enables the railway to address revenue losses. So while I agree that the railway should need to present a case, in this instance it should be an open and shut case that quickly results in a sensible, pragmatic and economic solution (again, the one outlined immediately above).
 

Warrior2852

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I’ve told you already: barrier the bridge and direct walkers wanting to cross railway property to go via Queens Street, London Road or Carrington Street, and Station Street.
The problem here we’d run into I think is that the bridge is very narrow, you wouldn’t be able to put much in the way of barriers in and given how busy the bridge gets when packed trains arrive it would take forever for people to get through them as a result, creating tailbacks and blockages on the rest of the bridge in the meantime.
 

sprunt

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The problem here we’d run into I think is that the bridge is very narrow, you wouldn’t be able to put much in the way of barriers in and given how busy the bridge gets when packed trains arrive it would take forever for people to get through them as a result, creating tailbacks and blockages on the rest of the bridge in the meantime.

Who cares about the passenger experience? At least they'll have paid to be treated like that.

Being serious, what was the barrier status of this bridge before the railway created the problem by demolishing the old bridge?
 

Wolfie

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This is exactly what I meant. You’d rather we spend millions and millions of pounds on a new bridge when there is a simple alternative which involves non-railway userswalking just a short distance further. If there was no alternative walking route I’d understand, but most people aren’t going to the middle of Queens Road so crossing the railway via London Road or Carrington Street is hardly going out of their way. And no doubt another bridge would cost millions and millions because some other do-gooders will be along to say a new bridge must be a huge structure with ramps and lifts at each side, to enable access for people with reduced mobility. And they’d say this despite the current bridge having only steps, and the bridge that was removed only having steps - so a simple bridge with just steps would hardly be removing some convenience that already exists. As I said, so often in this country we seem to make fairly simple solutions into complex projects, at vast and unnecessary cost.

We can’t roll back time - it may well have been a mistake to remove the other bridge but its been done. We all know that additional on-train revenue inspection is almost impossible (or would cost a huge amount over time in extra wages) because of the short journeys (Beeston, Carlton, etc) that involved. So the solution would seem to be to build a new bridge or make people walk around the station. I am mystified why anyone should think that rail passengers should effectively end up paying for that bridge in the form of higher fares, which is inevitable if spending continues indiscriminately. And it seems so wasteful to build another bridge at vast cost to the railway (in other words the nation, and rail users) to assuage the feelings of non-rail users who don’t pay anything to use a structure that costs money to maintain, etc when - as I said - there’s a relatively short, easily accessible and flat (i.e. no steps, etc) alternative route.
So basically the railway chose to save money and create the problem. It doesn't like the consequences and rather than pay up to resolve them it wants to do the cheapest thing for itself and you think that is absolutely fine.

Not only 'no' but 'hell no' is my answer to that. Bring on another Public Inquiry which the railway will, unless there have been significant changes (precedent is a key factor in legal cases), lose again and hopefully get to pay all of the costs.
 
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Yew

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I'm not trying to pin it on anybody, but if nobody is using it for the genuine reason then the taxpayer shouldn't be stumping up for £2m of lost revenue. I think my right to ensure my tax is used sensibly overrules your right to walk over a bridge just to prove a point, even though it's not used for the reason you'd claim it is used for.
You don't have a right to ensure that 'your" tax is used sensibly - there is no law that gives you that right.

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In this case the deviation isn't exactly mind blowing in terms of going via London Road or Carrington Street - I might just time it for the purpose of science!

In fairness in other respects I think people would be surprised just how many of the well heeled commuters who travel from the likes of Bottesford, Lowdham or Newark have been quite happy to wander in via bridge ignoring the TVM, apps etc and have bank cards at the ready to pay on the train, but equally have been happy to walk out at the other end and appreciate a "free"/"stolen" journey if the guard hasn't got to them by getting off time.

You could happily take a 3 figure sum on an evening peak departure from Nottingham to Grantham or Lincoln, every day.

They are as much to blame as the can't pay/won't pay brigade.
If only there was a way of operating a railway where you could have open stations, and you pay the guard on the train...
 

duffield

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I’ve told you already: barrier the bridge and direct walkers wanting to cross railway property to go via Queens Street, London Road or Carrington Street, and Station Street.


No, but in this case there is clearly an easy solution - outlined immediately above in this reply - that has a marginal impact on anyone and yet enables the railway to address revenue losses. So while I agree that the railway should need to present a case, in this instance it should be an open and shut case that quickly results in a sensible, pragmatic and economic solution (again, the one outlined immediately above).

So, in order to barrier the bridge, as you say, the railway first needs to go through the established legal process, make a case, and apply to divert the footpath. Which is fine, exactly what should happen, and I fully support that process. I'm glad there is some clarity on this since I was obviously mistaken in thinking that you were advocating that the railway should just ignore the legal situation and barrier the bridge unilaterally.

However, as far as it being an open and shut case, whatever you or I might think about it, the legal process requires that objections are heard and properly considered. Any judgement which did not do so would be vulnerable to appeal.

Of course, this then still leaves the question as to how to proceed if the court were to decide to deny the diversion...
 

eastdyke

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The problem here we’d run into I think is that the bridge is very narrow, you wouldn’t be able to put much in the way of barriers in and given how busy the bridge gets when packed trains arrive it would take forever for people to get through them as a result, creating tailbacks and blockages on the rest of the bridge in the meantime.
Following the Nottingham Station upgrade planning approval given in 2009 [which allowed for the stopping up of the bridge as a Public Right of Way - this then subsequently denied by the Public Inquiry] EMT submitted a Planning Application for barriers on the bridge April 2011.
The Planning Application for barriers was then withdrawn June 2011. The withdrawal could have course been for one of a number of reasons.
Inspection of the plans shows how this was proposed at that time. Yes, it is very narrow!


Noting too that the bridge is an emergency exit [the only other being via the main concourse] this all gets very messy with respect to alternative escape routes. Consultations with Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue Service and ORR approval would almost certainly be needed.

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As evidenced by the current [albeit 'temporary'] signage:

1731584121090.jpeg
 
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bunnahabhain

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You don't have a right to ensure that 'your" tax is used sensibly - there is no law that gives you that right.

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If only there was a way of operating a railway where you could have open stations, and you pay the guard on the train...
If only people were as honest as this forum assumes. Then we could do away with penalty fare schemes, revenue protection etc.
 

edwin_m

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Being serious, what was the barrier status of this bridge before the railway created the problem by demolishing the old bridge?
At that time, as mentioned, the policy was to have "open stations" with no barrier checks and all checking done on train. Before that there may have been manual ticket checks at each end of the bridge, though I don't recall seeing any trace of a booth for the checker - does anybody know?

The policy now is different, due to increased numbers of passengers, and operators wanting to maximise their revenue without increasing the staffing on trains to a level that would allow tickets to be sold and checked between closely-spaced stations.
 

Wolfie

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At that time, as mentioned, the policy was to have "open stations" with no barrier checks and all checking done on train. Before that there may have been manual ticket checks at each end of the bridge, though I don't recall seeing any trace of a booth for the checker - does anybody know?

The policy now is different, due to increased numbers of passengers, and operators wanting to maximise their revenue without increasing the staffing on trains to a level that would allow tickets to be sold and checked between closely-spaced stations.
The railway industry is entitled to make whatever policy changes it wishes. What it isn't entitled to do is expect to do so cost-free with others expected to suffer consequential detriment without mitigation.
 

edwin_m

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The railway industry is entitled to make whatever policy changes it wishes. What it isn't entitled to do is expect to do so cost-free with others expected to suffer consequential detriment without mitigation.
The cost would fall on taxpayers. Is a new bridge (well into the tens of millions I expect) good value for public money? Perhaps it could have been made a planning condition for the development of all the flats round there, but it's too late for that now.
 

Wolfie

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The cost would fall on taxpayers. Is a new bridge (well into the tens of millions I expect) good value for public money? Perhaps it could have been made a planning condition for the development of all the flats round there, but it's too late for that now.
There are lots of good public policy reasons for preventing landowners, whether public or private, taking actions beneficial to their own economic interests which are not necessarily conducive to the wider public good.

Make no mistake that any attempt to close the public right of way will inevitably result in a further Public Inquiry.
 
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My partner with mobility issues and I were doing weekly trips to Queens Medical Centre at £100 a time - and the much worsened connection onto the tram (the NET lifts to street level have been broken for a while), combined with EMR and Thameslink's combined inability to make connections at Peterborough work, means we're now driving. Shame that form of revenue loss doesn't get considered quite as much as the local freeloader.
this was my immediate thought too, the tram interchange is now laboriously slow, the whole interchange is designed around that footbridge. Also the last time i connected from the tram to the train, they had a whole entourage of ticket inspectors standing around the bottom of those stairs.
 

tram21

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To clarify in advance, I would never try to travel without a ticket, and do not encourage ticketless travel. But:

Yesterday I had some spare time waiting for a tram, so decided to check this out after going past it daily on the tram but unusually not using the station for any reason. I used the tram bridge and the footbridge to access platform 7, which I accessed without question, so could have easily boarded a train there without a ticket. I then walked up towards the ticket gates, and got to them without question, and got to the other platforms without having my ticket checked. So therefore I just managed to very easily, and without breaking any rules etc., gain access to the entire station without having my ticket checked. After doing this I then decided (holding a valid Robin Hood card!) it would be best I got the train, so boarded the train without a ticket check. There was no check on the short journey to Beeston, and there's no barriers there so I managed to complete the whole journey without getting my ticket checked.

For this to work there needs to at least not be very simple workarounds for fare evasion, or then you are literally just penalising the innocent and not doing anything for the hardened fare evader.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I’ve told you already: barrier the bridge and direct walkers wanting to cross railway property to go via Queens Street, London Road or Carrington Street, and Station Street.


No, but in this case there is clearly an easy solution - outlined immediately above in this reply - that has a marginal impact on anyone and yet enables the railway to address revenue losses. So while I agree that the railway should need to present a case, in this instance it should be an open and shut case that quickly results in a sensible, pragmatic and economic solution (again, the one outlined immediately above).
Fully agree. The public footpath isn't necessary, and I doubt many regular users would object, they probably just see it as a 'cut through' which happens to be somewhat convenient.
 

STINT47

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For people arriving on platform two and four wanting to change platforms could a solution be to put in a foot crossing across the tracks at the end of the platforms?

It wouldbe much cheaper and quicker to install compared to adding a new bridge at this end of the station.
 
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