Nottingham pavements a compulsory ticket area?

[diy_dude]

While in Nottingham this week I noticed signs at tram stops saying ‘This platform is a compulsory ticket area’. How are they allowed to do this when there is no pedestrian route avoiding the platforms except walking on the tram tracks?
I understand they want to challenge ticket evasion when they see someone leave the tram, but this feels a little overkill. Is the sign just badly worded?
I saw this at the Nottingham Trent stop- photos attached.

 

[Dave91131]

I've often thought this too about the NET stops - where does the platform (presumably private property) become the pavement (public highway) and visa-versa?

 

[duncanp]

The notice says "..retain your ticket for inspection on the platform after you alight.."

I suspect what they mean is if you have just alighted from the tram you should have you ticket with you just in case the revenue protection people decide to do a check on people getting off at a particular stop.

Also if someone is standing still on the pavement, as though they were waiting for a tram, they could be asked to show their ticket.

I doubt whether it would be enforceable in law to make someone have a ticket just to walk along the pavement from A to B without getting on a tram.

 

[swt_passenger]

We had a thread about this a few years ago, mostly about Croydon trams, but Nottingham gets mentioned. clearly it was already in place in 2018. It’s only applicable to people getting off a tram, although not explicitly signed that way.

Compulsory Ticket Areas (CTA)

It struck only knowingly having ever been in one, that these are ridiculous and must surely be unenforceable. I'm now even sure what their purpose really is, as surely that's what a Penalty Fare is for? I have only very recently realised that the Tram area outside East Croydon is a CTA, this...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Dave91131]

The notice says "..retain your ticket for inspection on the platform after you alight.."

But in the station shown in the opening post, Nottingham Trent University, what area exactly is the platform?

If one steps off the tram and manages to weave their way through waiting passengers and ticket inspectors, do the inspectors have the power to pursue and stop them on the public highway?

 

[MCR247]

If one steps off the tram and manages to weave their way through waiting passengers and ticket inspectors, do the inspectors have the power to pursue and stop them on the public highway?

They do not. If you’re caught onboard they will take you off at the next stop but again I’ve seen many people just walk off

 

[whoosh]

My interpretation is if you have nowhere else you can walk, then common sense says you can walk through, but if you are waiting then you are loitering if you haven't got a ticket.

 

[Nottingham59]

But in the station shown in the opening post, Nottingham Trent University, what area exactly is the platform?

If one steps off the tram and manages to weave their way through waiting passengers and ticket inspectors, do the inspectors have the power to pursue and stop them on the public highway?

It all boils down to the wording of the bylaws for Nottingham Express Transit, which define the platform as the entire width of island platforms and (if I remember correctly) two metres from the edge of a single platform.

The bylaw allow Ticket Inspectors to issue penalty fares to unticketed passengers on the tram or on the platform, but specifically excludes people who have arrived on the platform other than by tram.

So the notices are put up on the platform merely for the administrative convenience of NET allow them to continue issuing a PFN if the tram stops and the challenged passenger gets off.

NET don't seem to care that these notices completely undermine the stance of other rail operators, who would claim in court that a "compulsory ticket area" should mean precisely that.

It really irritates me that the drafters of the bylaws were so lazy that they couldn't find a form of words that avoided this nonsense. I have made a point of walking down the tram tracks at Royal Centre tramstop, as there is not other way through without passing along a "Compulsory Ticket Area" Platform; and making trams wait for me while I do so.

===
Here you go. Not sure if these are the current version:

https://f.hubspotusercontent10.net/hubfs/7099268/NET%20Byelaws%202014.pdf

EDIT:
DEFINITIONS
“Compulsory Ticket Area” means
(i) Any tram; or
(ii) Where a tramstop has an island platform between two lines of the Authorised Tramway, that part of the tramstop lying between each of the platform edges facing those lines; and
(iii) At any tramstop with a platform that is not an island
platform; that part of the tramstop lying between, on one
side the platform edge facing a line of the authorised
tramway that is approximately 310 millimeters higher
than the nearer rail providing support and guidance for a
tram and, on the opposite side, for a distance equal to
and directly opposite that platform edge the greater of a
line 2 metres perpendicularly offset from the platform
edge and a line between platform demarcation markers
as defined in the Conditions of Carriage.

"In each case on which a notice is displayed which states that
the tram or area indicated in the notice is a Compulsory Ticket
Area;"

BYLAW 20
(4) No person at a tramstop compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 20 unless he came there by alighting from a tram

 

[BJames]

It all boils down to the wording of the bylaws for Nottingham Express Transit, which define the platform as the entire width of island platforms and (if I remember correctly) two metres from the edge of a single platform.

The bylaw allow Ticket Inspectors to issue penalty fares to unticketed passengers on the tram or on the platform, but specifically excludes people who have arrived on the platform other than by tram.

So the notices are put up on the platform merely for the administrative convenience of NET allow them to continue issuing a PFN if the tram stops and the challenged passenger gets off.

NET don't seem to care that these notices completely undermine the stance of other rail operators, who would claim in court that a "compulsory ticket area" should mean precisely that.

It really irritates me that the drafters of the bylaws were so lazy that they couldn't find a form of words that avoided this nonsense. I have made a point of walking down the tram tracks at Royal Centre tramstop, as there is not other way through without passing along a "Compulsory Ticket Area" Platform; and making trams wait for me while I do so.

===
Here you go. Not sure if these are the current version:

https://f.hubspotusercontent10.net/hubfs/7099268/NET%20Byelaws%202014.pdf

EDIT:
DEFINITIONS
“Compulsory Ticket Area” means
(i) Any tram; or
(ii) Where a tramstop has an island platform between two lines of the Authorised Tramway, that part of the tramstop lying between each of the platform edges facing those lines; and
(iii) At any tramstop with a platform that is not an island
platform; that part of the tramstop lying between, on one
side the platform edge facing a line of the authorised
tramway that is approximately 310 millimeters higher
than the nearer rail providing support and guidance for a
tram and, on the opposite side, for a distance equal to
and directly opposite that platform edge the greater of a
line 2 metres perpendicularly offset from the platform
edge and a line between platform demarcation markers
as defined in the Conditions of Carriage.

"In each case on which a notice is displayed which states that
the tram or area indicated in the notice is a Compulsory Ticket
Area;"

BYLAW 20
(4) No person at a tramstop compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 20 unless he came there by alighting from a tram

I appreciate the very poor wording of the regulations but is this really a good idea? Nobody knows why you're doing this unless you tell a member of the NET team, and their drivers, every single time you do this at Royal Centre. It does seem silly that there is no other way that doesn't involve a significant detour, but having walked that way many times, I notice the tram stop but it doesn't really matter as if a NET inspector asked to see my ticket (which would never happen) I'd just completely ignore them.

 

[kevjs]

It all boils down to the wording of the bylaws for Nottingham Express Transit, which define the platform as the entire width of island platforms and (if I remember correctly) two metres from the edge of a single platform.

That's really obvious on Queens Walk where NET have pressure washed about 2m from the platform edge leaving the area much cleaner than the rest of the paving stones!

 

[yorkie]

They have no powers over anyone who has not alighted from a tram.

As for 'loitering', if it's a public street, they can't stop you standing there either.

The Croydon tram stops do make it clear that the cumpulsory ticket area only applies to tram users.

If anyone erroneously claims it applies to non-customers, then they are bonkers and utterly wrong.

 

[MCR247]

They have no powers over anyone who has not alighted from a tram.

As for 'loitering', if it's a public street, they can't stop you standing there either.

The Croydon tram stops do make it clear that the cumpulsory ticket area only applies to tram users.

If anyone erroneously claims it applies to non-customers, then they are bonkers and utterly wrong.

There are times where they will ask for tickets from passengers waiting to board, I’d always thought it a bit dodgy

 

[yorkie]

There are times where they will ask for tickets from passengers waiting to board, I’d always thought it a bit dodgy

Anyone who is simply stood there could say they are not travelling and merely waiting for someone and they couldn't do anything. However if the person then boarded a tram and actually travelled, and was then unable to produce a ticket, then they could do them for deliberate fare evasion.

 

[MCR247]

Anyone who is simply stood there could say they are not travelling and merely waiting for someone and they couldn't do anything. However if the person then boarded a tram and actually travelled, and was then unable to produce a ticket, then they could do them for deliberate fare evasion.

Indeed. But as they’d then ‘lose’ the person (assuming they were doing a block at a station instead of checking onboard), the staff generally prefer to go off of their reading of the rules which involves pointing at the CTA sign