Nottingham 'Bus War'

[CallySleeper]

Good to see this thread again.

What's the view on this - it can't be cheap operating virtually empty brand new Mercedes vehicles at 4 an hour between Derby & Nottingham and the same to Heanor.

What's their financial state and just who is bank rolling what, on the face of it, are two heavily loss making routes from what appears to be a loss making organisation. If its the banks then surely they will have to call a halt at sometime.

Not forgetting of course Nottingham - Derby was every 10 mins originally.

Not so long ago ITT I think we debated their finances. They have been linked with National Express, and the old Dunn Line. My suspicions are to be able to afford nearly-new Mercs on loss-making routes, they're being funded by somebody, maybe even significantly. I for one would love to see the financial reports.

 

[Mugby]

Firstly, could I just state I am not biased against any (unlike some on here.)

I reckon a Nottingham Ilkeston fast service couolg go well...

How would you get from Nottingham to Ilkeston faster than 'The Two'?

 

[harry42]

How would you get from Nottingham to Ilkeston faster than 'The Two'?

It stops...then stops...and stops. Wollaton and along Ilkeston Road.

 

[edwin_m]

Ilkeston/Wollaton Road suffers from traffic delays in the peak and has more 30mph single lane than the other roads west out of Nottingham. Something via the A610 and the newish road across from Ikea might be a bit quicker, but wouldn't match the train journey time when the railway station is finished and wouldn't serve anywhere on the Two route in between.

 

[Asriel]

Good to see this thread again.



Not forgetting of course Nottingham - Derby was every 10 mins originally.

Not so long ago ITT I think we debated their finances. They have been linked with National Express, and the old Dunn Line. My suspicions are to be able to afford nearly-new Mercs on loss-making routes, they're being funded by somebody, maybe even significantly. I for one would love to see the financial reports.

Dont they have links with Rotala? They must be being funded by someone to be able to expand so fast with such modern vehicles. I would also be interested to see what effect they are having on Trents finances. They do seem to have faltered slightly recently.

 

[winston270twm]

Good to see this thread again.



Not forgetting of course Nottingham - Derby was every 10 mins originally.

Not so long ago ITT I think we debated their finances. They have been linked with National Express, and the old Dunn Line. My suspicions are to be able to afford nearly-new Mercs on loss-making routes, they're being funded by somebody, maybe even significantly. I for one would love to see the financial reports.

Anyone can view their accounts by downloading them off Companies House website for £1. The

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk//compdetails

Search using either of the following:
DUNN MOTOR TRACTION LTD
Company No. 06806098

The latest accounts to 28th Feb 2013 show the company is more profitable than you'd expect, it's definitely not loss making as many people are speculating! You need to remember Yourbus are a big contractor to NX, whether the NX work makes the bulk of the profit I'm not sure.
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Dont they have links with Rotala? They must be being funded by someone to be able to expand so fast with such modern vehicles. I would also be interested to see what effect they are having on Trents finances. They do seem to have faltered slightly recently.

The only link with Rotala is that Scott Dunn's brother is chief exec of Rotala Plc.

 

[CallySleeper]

Rotala, thank you. Does it say who's funding them?

 

[winston270twm]

Rotala, thank you. Does it say who's funding them?

Nope, but you wouldn't expect them too.

If someone is backing them, they obviously want to remain anonymous.

 

[MCR247]

Ilkeston/Wollaton Road suffers from traffic delays in the peak and has more 30mph single lane than the other roads west out of Nottingham. Something via the A610 and the newish road across from Ikea might be a bit quicker, but wouldn't match the train journey time when the railway station is finished and wouldn't serve anywhere on the Two route in between.

I'm looking forward to seeing the passenger numbers for Ilkeston station!

 

[G0ORC]

The latest accounts to 28th Feb 2013 show the company is more profitable than you'd expect, it's definitely not loss making as many people are speculating! You need to remember Yourbus are a big contractor to NX, whether the NX work makes the bulk of the profit I'm not sure.

I suspect the 2014 accounts may be more relevant when they appear - it was, after all, during this period their major expansion has taken place.

I know there is no evidence (yet!) that they are in trouble but I still can't understand where the money is coming from and how they can continue to run routes which must be losing them thousands a week.

The NX work can't be that profitable that it can subsidise even the two routes I quoted. As someone else said, the council contract work is not a cash cow either which leaves them with a few commercial routes around Nottingham and Derby. Other than CityLink and the Heanor, their other commercial routes in Derby seem to carry moderate loadings, certainly nowhere near the level of the TB equivalent.

Not being a Nottingham resident, I know little of their operation in that city. Just how well do these do, especially the ones in direct competition with TB?

I would be interested too in knowing what the effect of all of this is having on TB's finances.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Ilkeston/Wollaton Road suffers from traffic delays in the peak and has more 30mph single lane than the other roads west out of Nottingham. Something via the A610 and the newish road across from Ikea might be a bit quicker, but wouldn't match the train journey time when the railway station is finished and wouldn't serve anywhere on the Two route in between.

A610 might give you a few daytime faster journeys to Ilkeston, but realistically the peak is a joke - the rainbow1 is often running 30minutes late by the time it reaches me in Nuthall - and the rapid 1 diverts through Nuthall & Kimberley in the peak period (even inbound in the evenings) as it is quicker than using the A610 between Cinderhill & Giltbrook Islands.

Yourbus would do well to extend the Y1 (perhaps every 30mins?) beyond Heanor to Nottingham. Not everyone lives in Heanor town centre. It would provide fast direct links to Derby from the north of Broxtowe Borough and through buses from Smalley & Heanor Gate to Nottingham. Plus running it around Giltbrook Farm & Larkfield Estates would restore their direct links to Nottingham (you could even divert it once an hour via the QMC .... (Y29??)).

In fact why don't Trent get their act together and link the half hourly R1 Heanor shorts to the H1 - simples! People like through services!

 

[Asriel]

Not being a Nottingham resident, I know little of their operation in that city. Just how well do these do, especially the ones in direct competition with TB?

From what I see the Y36 seems to be doing particularly well, always looks busy when I see it pass. The Y5 seems to carry a fair load at times too, although not at the levels of Indigo/Skylink.

 

[winston270twm]

I suspect the 2014 accounts may be more relevant when they appear - it was, after all, during this period their major expansion has taken place.

I know there is no evidence (yet!) that they are in trouble but I still can't understand where the money is coming from and how they can continue to run routes which must be losing them thousands a week.

The NX work can't be that profitable that it can subsidise even the two routes I quoted. As someone else said, the council contract work is not a cash cow either which leaves them with a few commercial routes around Nottingham and Derby. Other than CityLink and the Heanor, their other commercial routes in Derby seem to carry moderate loadings, certainly nowhere near the level of the TB equivalent.

Not being a Nottingham resident, I know little of their operation in that city. Just how well do these do, especially the ones in direct competition with TB?

I would be interested too in knowing what the effect of all of this is having on TB's finances.

The next set of accounts aren't due until 30/11/14, during this period the NX coach operation has also shrunk with the closure of Durham depot & transfer of routes/vehicles to Go North East

 

[G0ORC]

The next set of accounts aren't due until 30/11/14, during this period the NX coach operation has also shrunk with the closure of Durham depot & transfer of routes/vehicles to Go North East

Thanks for this - I'm sure they will make very interesting reading.

I happened to be in Derby yesterday evening around peak hours and the lack of customers on both their CityLink and Heanor was palpable.

An HI left around 1720 full and standing and a few minutes earlier the YourBus equivalent had left with around 10 on board. A similar story at the bus station where the three departing RAs to Nottingham I saw were full and the one YourBus departure in that time had a dozen on board.

I really don't know how long they can keep this up!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I see the Y36 seems to be doing particularly well, always looks busy when I see it pass. The Y5 seems to carry a fair load at times too, although not at the levels of Indigo/Skylink.

Thank you - from this alone I still wonder who is bank-rolling this.

If all they have is one or two route like Y36 and Y5 then it doesn't add up and they surely must be heading for a fall. The NX might be profitable but it sounds like most of their other work isn't.

Do we have another "Premier" on our hands?

 

[Mugby]

I'm quite surprised at passengers reluctance to use Yourbus, particularly on services such as Y1 and Y5 which are of equal standing to H1 and Indigo of TB.

Is it entirely down to the fact that TB's passengers have mango cards and use them on other routes?

 

[Deerfold]

I'm quite surprised at passengers reluctance to use Yourbus, particularly on services such as Y1 and Y5 which are of equal standing to H1 and Indigo of TB.

Is it entirely down to the fact that TB's passengers have mango cards and use them on other routes?

There will also be passengers using day tickets from further afield / season tickets and those who think patronising Trentbarton is the best long term bet for the future of those services.

 

[CallySleeper]

Do we have another "Premier" on our hands?

Similar strategies of the two different companies but what you have to remember is that YB appear to be slightly more professional in their approach. Also, YB are being significantly funded from somebody, so they can afford ventures such as citylink. I think the worst we'll see for now is them deciding to pull the plug on that route or others.

 

[edwin_m]

The difference is that (from a perspective of a non-user) Yourbus give the impression of being a quality operation with new and clean vehicles. Premiere (which is how they spelled it) ran a real ragbag fleet in several liveries and visually in conditions ranging from fair to pretty poor.

 

[ARedFlyer]

Y5 does pretty well...not sure why people are painting a different picture. Y36 has always done well...it's their flagship service. The CityLink was a fail at the start due to aggressive defense from TB...but going down to 20 minutes and introducing a few stops seems to have helped it somewhat.

It's a long term game and the investor is certainly in for the long term

 

[Deerfold]

The CityLink was a fail at the start due to aggressive defense from TB...but going down to 20 minutes and introducing a few stops seems to have helped it somewhat.

It's a long term game and the investor is certainly in for the long term

Really? How does having half the frequency of your main competitor (And no late evening/overnight services) help?

If you know something about any investor do share, if not, it's just irritating.

 

[Statto]

Really? How does having half the frequency of your main competitor (And no late evening/overnight services) help?

If you know something about any investor do share, if not, it's just irritating.

Doubt that that FM is just a troll constantly spewing out bs, only have to look at that FMs signature to see where they're coming from.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Really? How does having half the frequency of your main competitor (And no late evening/overnight services) help?

If you know something about any investor do share, if not, it's just irritating.

Deerfold, we've been here before with ARF! Remember the speeches about Premiere, how they weren't in financial trouble, and were going to wipe the floor with TB. Other great ARedFlyer-isms that we've seen in the past

"RED 5 was/is such a success they found a niche in people wanting a no frills service that runs quickly from A to B. They failed with the Flyer but I hope Premiere continue to cherry-pick Trent Barton's network. When I think of the money Premiere have taken from TB with the RED 5 it makes me feel warm inside." Well balanced and accurate

"So YourBus needs to target services with a frequency of 10 minutes or less as this is already established there are plenty of passengers to pick up.

Of course YB have already started to do this taking on the Red Arrow." Hence why they've dropped but, of course, that's now the right thing to do.

ARedFlyer's inaccurate, biased, inconsistent and laughable diatribes are, without doubt, one of the comedy gold areas of this message board. Never letting the facts get in the way, the audacious backflips and revisionist history are a pure delight. This thread is full of them. Truly the "Comical Ali" of this site.... Take heed Deerfold, come the revolution and TrentBarton are smashed with YourBus establishing an empire that will last a thousand years, then we'll look foolish....

And yeah, as a general point, I'm with you on the "I know something but I can't say" style comments. My default position is that it's insecure people trying to sound important

 

[Statto]

Deerfold, we've been here before with ARF! Remember the speeches about Premiere, how they weren't in financial trouble, and were going to wipe the floor with TB. Other great ARedFlyer-isms that we've seen in the past

"RED 5 was/is such a success they found a niche in people wanting a no frills service that runs quickly from A to B. They failed with the Flyer but I hope Premiere continue to cherry-pick Trent Barton's network. When I think of the money Premiere have taken from TB with the RED 5 it makes me feel warm inside." Well balanced and accurate

"So YourBus needs to target services with a frequency of 10 minutes or less as this is already established there are plenty of passengers to pick up.

Of course YB have already started to do this taking on the Red Arrow." Hence why they've dropped but, of course, that's now the right thing to do.

ARedFlyer's inaccurate, biased, inconsistent and laughable diatribes are, without doubt, one of the comedy gold areas of this message board. Never letting the facts get in the way, the audacious backflips and revisionist history are a pure delight. This thread is full of them. Truly the "Comical Ali" of this site.... Take heed Deerfold, come the revolution and TrentBarton are smashed with YourBus establishing an empire that will last a thousand years, then we'll look foolish....

And yeah, as a general point, I'm with you on the "I know something but I can't say" style comments. My default position is that it's insecure people trying to sound important

Indeed i don't post much on this thread but do read the thread most of which i find interesting, however that FMs posts are just full of bull, & no point in debating with that FM either as that FM accuses anyone who has a different opinion of being a TB fanboy.

 

[bb21]

Really? How does having half the frequency of your main competitor (And no late evening/overnight services) help?

If you know something about any investor do share, if not, it's just irritating.

This can work, but more often than not it is because the operator with an inferior service offer a much cheaper fare.

I don't see yourbus's fares being that, and in fact it is a pain to try and find out fares information on their website.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Nottingham City Transport are withdrawing the 14 & 37 on the 30th March as many of us know. They are introducing a new 57 between Nottingham & the old Plains Estate terminus at Newcombe Drive/Darlton Drive serving that point for the first time in many years.
Day tickets go from £3.40 to £3.50. Kangaroos go from £4 to £4.20. Singles go from £1.70 to £2.00!
Be interesting to see what Trent do with my £1.90 single from our village to Nottingham. We are in the Kangaroo zone but the single are has gone up from the standard city flat fare of £1.70 to £1.90 from our stop in the last 18months!

 

[Robertj21a]

Nottingham City Transport are withdrawing the 14 & 37 on the 30th March as many of us know. They are introducing a new 57 between Nottingham & the old Plains Estate terminus at Newcombe Drive/Darlton Drive serving that point for the first time in many years.
Day tickets go from £3.40 to £3.50. Kangaroos go from £4 to £4.20. Singles go from £1.70 to £2.00!
Be interesting to see what Trent do with my £1.90 single from our village to Nottingham. We are in the Kangaroo zone but the single are has gone up from the standard city flat fare of £1.70 to £1.90 from our stop in the last 18months!

Becoming rare to find much under £2 for a single anywhere nowadays, other than short hops within a town/city. Operators want to encourage Day/Week tickets wherever possible.

 

[harry42]

. Singles go from £1.70 to £2.00!
s!

Great! But...35 getting double deckers and new mini buses for 30 with audio announcments and now every 15 mins!!!!!!!!!!!!


OFI, where did you get the fare uncrease info from?

 

[edwin_m]

https://www.nctx.co.uk/march14farechange/

 

[MCR247]

Great! But...35 getting double deckers and new mini buses for 30 with audio announcments and now every 15 mins!!!!!!!!!!!!

If by new you mean ex orange line and before that brown line, then yes they'll be new!

 

[Stonesourscotty]

TB have been giving out cereal bars and juice on there services today