Nottingham 'Bus War'

[Mitch in Notts]

Anybody who doesn't want competition and more choice is either A) a TB employee (some quite obvious cases here I think! ) or B) A fanboy!

The public are loving the slick, smooth and classy Mercedes Citaros. They are really comfortable to ride on. Now compare this to TB's tacky and plastic "The Only Way Is Essex" busses and livery (which are breaking down at a ridiculous rate at the moment by the way) and you can see now why there is a real competitor.

Yes But what we aren't enjoying are the massive hike in fares to above Trent levels. I used to use the Y29 on Saturdays from Eastwood to Nuthall due to overcrowding on Trent. The Trent Mango fare is 2.10, single 2.80. I was prepared to pay 2.50 with Yourbus for a better journey. New fare £3.50. Looks like I won't be travelling Yourbus for some time.

Innovation would be to link the Y1 & Y29 together to provide a direct link from Derby to Eastwood/Kimberley. Surprising how many people get off a R1 in Heanor and transfer to H1 for Derby.

 

[Deerfold]

Anybody who doesn't want competition and more choice is either A) a TB employee (some quite obvious cases here I think! ) or B) A fanboy!

Do you have any evidence for these wild accusations?
I'm not sure of your definition of fanboy but TB certainly seem to have quite a lot of fans.
I'm not a fan of wasteful competition like the citylink where there is already a well-run frequent service and the same buses could be running on a new route and getting more people on buses.
One of the reasons I like buses is for their positive environmental impact. Having loads of empty buses running around doesn't help this in image or practice.

The public are loving the slick, smooth and classy Mercedes Citaros. They are really comfortable to ride on. Now compare this to TB's tacky and plastic "The Only Way Is Essex" busses and livery (which are breaking down at a ridiculous rate at the moment by the way) and you can see now why there is a real competitor.

What on earth is a "The Only way is Essex" bus?

How often are TB buses breaking down? Is it at a higher rate than NCT/Yourbus? (This is a serious question. I'm not currently in the Nottingham area much).

I'm guessing they're a little stretched at the moment from having taken over some of Premiere's routes.

 

[WillPS]

I would intuitively expect Trent's reliability is probably not as good as YourBus' and NCT's because of the lack of standardisation (and the high number of Optare vehicles - NCT's only Optares are, I think, the Omnidekkas which are Optare only in name).

NCT's and YourBus' fleets are concentrated in two and one depots respectively, as opposed to Trent's several hundred depots.

 

[pjnathanail]

Anybody who doesn't want competition and more choice is either A) a TB employee (some quite obvious cases here I think! ) or B) A fanboy!

The public are loving the slick, smooth and classy Mercedes Citaros. They are really comfortable to ride on. Now compare this to TB's tacky and plastic "The Only Way Is Essex" busses and livery (which are breaking down at a ridiculous rate at the moment by the way) and you can see now why there is a real competitor.

If the public are loving them, how come the Red Arrow is full and the Citylink is getting a frequency cut?

There is no point trying to compete on services every ten minutes or better, because both services spend their journies overtaking each other. This is dangerous, looks bad and leads to congestion at bus stops too.

The routes where premiere innovated (red1, red5, red7, red8, red9) survived until the end, and all have now been adopted by TB/Kinchbus/AOT.

This shows that innovation works, but direct competition doesn't.

Yourbus have tried the y81/82 and the y100 but they didn't work
Citylink is dead from July 14 as the frequency halves so they can't compete
Thy need to stop copying TB routes, some of which are marginal anyway
The new buses aren't cheap, and I can't see where they're getting their profit from

 

[edwin_m]

I would intuitively expect Trent's reliability is probably not as good as YourBus' and NCT's because of the lack of standardisation (and the high number of Optare vehicles - NCT's only Optares are, I think, the Omnidekkas which are Optare only in name).

NCT's and YourBus' fleets are concentrated in two and one depots respectively, as opposed to Trent's several hundred depots.

NCT has lots of Solos.

Hundreds of depots? Are we talking one depot per bus here or is it simply exaggeration?

 

[WillPS]

NCT has lots of Solos.

Hundreds of depots? Are we talking one depot per bus here or is it simply exaggeration?

It was simply an exaggeration. And yes I'd forgotten about the Solos.

 

[34D]

How can a small company like Your Bus afford so many top quality new Citraros? The main groups don't buy, notably Stagecoach who buy mostly cheap E200/400 buses. Even Trent Barton have only bought a small number of Citaros.

YourBus are one of the top-flight independent operators in the country. Let's not forget that the Dunn Family knows how to run buses and has the T-shirt.

 

[tbone]

And now we have a Y3 between Derby and Ilkeston.

 

[MCR247]

Yawn :roll:

It's getting boring now

 

[tbone]

You may have seen my article on the omnibuses blog on this topic the other day and it has sparked quite a debate in the comments section.

On top of the registration of new services, Yourbus have also cancelled their Durham routes, the city centre shuttles that use electric solos. I've also heard that all the National Express work ran from that depot will either be moved to Heanor or surrendered.

That's the second depot to be shut this year. Both run/ran tendered services so they should in theory be profitable. To be honest, given the numbers on some Heanor routes, they should be propping up the business.

Of the Heanor routes, no doubt the Matlock area services will bring in money as they are again tendered routes. But do they make enough money to justify new buses, leased or otherwise?

As for the other routes, the Y36 probably does make a nice profit. But will this continue when the tram opens next year? The Y28 apparently sees poor loadings and may see a reduction in frequency. The Y29 was, until recently, non-profitable so that can't be that much of a money spinner. Then there's Citylink, which must be bleeding out money.

Of course there is National Express work, and apparently the profit for Yourbus last year was £1.2 million. But that simply doesn't add up to me.

Obviously this year has seen significant investment in a lot of new Citaros (with apparently more due) and streetlites. The cost of all of these must exceed £1.2 million so how can Yourbus afford to take the sort of gambles they're currently taking?

Are they, as so many have put it, nothing more than a 'posh Premiere'?

 

[edwin_m]

NCT are merging the 13 into the 14 route, retaining service every 30min to the outer ends (except University Park, to be served by the Unilink all year round instead) but reducing the combined section via Castle Boulevard from 15min to 30min intervals. This is stated to be a response to falling passenger numbers and tram disruption in the short term, but also because the tram will provide a better service between the Broadmarsh end of the city centre and Beeston when it opens so NCT sees little future in this route.

The Chilwell leg of the 14 stays but by the same logic I wouldn't be surprised if that disappears too once the tram is operating.

It is an interesting question why Yourbus have decided to challenge the flagship routes of the two dominant operators between Nottingham and Beeston, when the tram will provide serious competition to all three from 2014. I would have thought there were plenty of other corridors where it would be easier for them to get a foothold.

 

[gordonthemoron]

The Chilwell leg of the 14 stays but by the same logic I wouldn't be surprised if that disappears too once the tram is operating.

neither would I, I also expect 48 and 36 to take a major hit

 

[Deerfold]

Suprised Dennis Road and Woolaton Road will have seen a massive reduction in buses over recent years - I remember there being the 37 Beeston - Dennis Road - Nottingham every 15 minutes as well as Barton service 31 which came down from the Nurseryman in the mid nineties.

 

[edwin_m]

Something similar has probably happened on many routes, not just in Nottingham, as the operators have focused on their major routes.

 

[Markdvdman]

Precisely; in the few areas where competition exists, it usually finishes. We used to have competition between two companies in Doncaster; when one company sold out to First, the other was obliged to sell its operation - in the full knowledge that, if they didn't, First would come in with low fares and drive them off the road.

I remember years ago in Merthyr, when Parfitts were king. Stagecoach came to the party with a price war, offering weekly tickets at £2. Parfitts could not stand any longer, and the prices rocketed.

It is only good for short periods - it stinks. The Merthyr bus to Cardiff is more regular than the train, but a single to Ponty used to be cheap - new buses, now more expensive than the train!

 

[richardderby]

the new times are on line for the Y1 (Trent H1 Derby-Heanor) they are almost exactly 5 minutes before the Trent service, except on Sunday when there are twice as many buses...

http://www.derbysbus.info/times/timetables/Y01Y-130804.pdf

 

[edwin_m]

I get the impression that where NCT runs Go2, Yourbus should be branded as Me2.

 

[winston270twm]

YourBus are one of the top-flight independent operators in the country. Let's not forget that the Dunn Family knows how to run buses and has the T-shirt.

Scott Dunn does seem to be doing very well with his own Yourbus business, he didn't seem to do as well as Rotala owned Diamond as MD, I suspect his hands may been more tied financially. Rotala Plc's Chief exec is Simon Dunn & Bob Dunn is MD of Preston Bus, Rotala doesn't seem to be doing that fantastic especially in the West Midlands

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Scott Dunn does seem to be doing very well with his own Yourbus business, he didn't seem to do as well as Rotala owned Diamond as MD, I suspect his hands may been more tied financially. Rotala Plc's Chief exec is Simon Dunn & Bob Dunn is MD of Preston Bus, Rotala doesn't seem to be doing that fantastic especially in the West Midlands

Theyre doing that good even Green Bus have more passengers on one route than diamond!

 

[tbone]

Ahead of the launch of Y5, Trent Barton are having a sale on the price of network saver tickets when bought on Indigo. A saving of £10 for the weekly ticket or £20 on the 28 day ticket is available:

https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/news-and-media/our-news/article/indigosale

 

[Bunting14]

Just thinking it must be exactly 20 years since we had the NCT versus Nottingham Omnibus wars.

Great link here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LsIoDtwwHQ

 

[Deerfold]

Just thinking it must be exactly 20 years since we had the NCT versus Nottingham Omnibus wars.

Great link here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LsIoDtwwHQ

Yes, it always suprised me that they didn't target the student market.

I was a student in Nottingham at the time but only spotted them when travelling into the city centre or beyond.

I'd forgotten their big USP was giving change

 

[WillPS]

Just thinking it must be exactly 20 years since we had the NCT versus Nottingham Omnibus wars.

Great link here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LsIoDtwwHQ

I highly recommend the DVD too. I can *just* remember them, must be some of my earliest memories. I can visibly remember the centre doors which either had a bar welded over them to prevent use or a hastily added bench seat (with a massive well underneath where the steps were).

They probably had the right idea with the way they implemented an actual network (like a stripped down Go2, before its time) overnight.

NCT's reaction meant they endured a very negative PR campaign for stuff which wasn't really their fault. For example, NCT emptied the garage every day, and did stuff like fill up Rise Park bus terminus at 5:30am, only allowing room for their own buses until Omnibus had finished for the day. The rolling withdrawals which were occurring as a result of the incoming buses were all stopped, and NCT even went as far as obtaining some Titans - a show of muscle effectively, God knows what it must have cost! All this meant Omnibus had to block traffic in order to stand a chance of getting to the stops. There's a couple of examples of 'stop blocking' in that video on both sides; ultimately NCT's bulging fleet bought them victory on that front.

And that's before you mention the 'timetable change' vehicle, permanently parked in the market square and handing out "information" on their rivals (which amounted to 'you shouldn't trust them').

The same thing happened when Bellamys took on the 58 with their Routemaster-run 20 - almost anything spare was chucked in to service on the 58. It's interesting that this did not happen with Yourbus on either the 81/82, the 36 or the 100. Are the Dunn family considered a worthy competitor?

 

[Mugby]

I seem to remember that NCT gave out leaflets headed 'Don't give yourself the Blues!

While Nottingham Omnibus gave out leaflets headed 'Don't be green with envy'

 

[Mitch in Notts]

It's interesting that this did not happen with Yourbus on either the 81/82, the 36 or the 100. Are the Dunn family considered a worthy competitor?

Surely NCT increased the frequency of the 36 after the arrival of Yourbus - and the passenger in front of me last week was only charged £1.50 from Canning Circus to QMC so looks like they provide cheaper fares as well.

The 81/2 were initally set up to compete with the overcrowded tram - and not with any bus route - that came about more when the Phoenix route was scrapped. They were though never that busy.

The 100 seemed an odd choice - but NCT did extend the availability of its easyrider tickets outside of the city to compete with the Yourbus competition.

 

[ARedFlyer]

I'm 33 and can't remember Omnibus but I do remember a rival company with a fleet of green buses with a red arrow (I think?) must have come just a few years after. Who were they? I know they used to run the Bulwell routes at least. They had a dodgy reputation for breakdowns and engines blowing which was well founded given I was travelling on one and suffered a rather scary engine blow out once.

The block tactics in those vids

 

[WillPS]

Delta. They ran with a load of Nationals and frequently for literally nothing.

Main competition was on the Long Eaton corridor.

 

[Mugby]

Delta also ran from Derby via Belper to Ripley, Alfreton and Mansfield. Also local services in the Kirkby area, a Mansfield to Nottingham 'express' and they were about to have a go at a Derby to Nottingham express when they disappeared.

Their depot was near Sutton Parkway station and it was suggested at the time that they had a connection with the post de-regulation owners of West Midlands Travel because the red and green livery which they used was applied in a similar style to that of WMT.
Also, they put out some quite decent publicity (some of which I still have) and it's doubtful that a new start up independent would have had such resources without the backing of someone.

That was when Trent first employed their 'battle buses' and there were quite a few acrimonious scenes in the streets at the time!

 

[Deerfold]

There are some suggestions out there that Delta were bought by Wellglade.


Does anyone remember Maun Buses? There's a little before my time in the area (from at or near deregulation starting) but seemed to run quite a network of buses in Derbyshire and Nottingham including quite a lot of night services.

They seem to have been related to the van hire business Maun Motors of Sutton in Ashfield.

 

[WillPS]

Delta was bought out by Trent, Omnibus was bought out by NCT (following the landlord of their Hucknall Hangar locking the gates due to lack of rent). The fleet of both went to the buyer, although in the case of Omnibus a good number of their vehicles were actually Sheffield Omnibus vehicles on loan, these were returned.

Some of the fleet was sold on in both cases, some was sent to the scrapyard.

I only remember Maun doing contract work (similar to Doyles now) but I could be wrong on that.