Nottingham 'Bus War'

[Mitch in Notts]

It's a partial replacement for Notts Council 55 Bottesford-Bingham. But as Bottesford is in Leicestershire Notts CC are only providing a 'partial' replacement.

 

[edwin_m]

Last time I went to Bottesford station (mid 2012) there was a Premiere bus waiting there so it may just be a convenient layover point before starting the return journey.

 

[trentside]

Bottesford has been served by the 55 for as long as I can remember.

Under RoadCar, MASS and Veolia it ran into Leicestershire and then into Lincolnshire to serve Long Bennington - with Lincolnshire part funding the service. The withdrawal of Lincolnshire's funding saw the route cut back to Bottesford only when Premiere took over the service in 2008.

I've dug out an old timetable on the Web Archive from 2005 - here.

 

[ashworth]

Trent have issued the new timetables online for August changes.
Sees last 141 out of Mansfield at 6pm & Nottingham at 730pm. Leaves villages like Rainworth & Blidworth, which aren't small, with no evening bus service.

After reading this comment I looked up the Stagecoach timetable for the Mansfield to Rainworth and Blidworth services and I was quite surprised how few evening services there were on that route. The evening service on Trent Barton's 141 route was cut back drastically years ago to 2 hourly after 6pm but I'd always thought that Stagecoach ran a frequent service between Mansfield and Blidworth which compensated the sparse 141 service. Now the sizable, and still growing communities of Rainworth and Blidworth only have one evening bus out of Mansfield at 1945.

The 141 route serves a growing population with some very large housing developments in the Papplewick Lane area of Hucknall currently under development close to the route. The cut backs also leave the villages of Linby and Papplewick with no evening buses and the Bestwood Village which is also seeing a rapid growth of new housing. The 228 service between Hucknall and Bulwell via Bestwood is also being cut back to 2 hourly daytime only.

In one respect I can see why the existing sparse evening service is being cut as very few people are travelling on them. However, I think the fact that it has been so infrequent in recent years has just resulted in people not bothering with it. I am as much to blame as anyone. I live near Papplewick and have not used the evening buses for years. I just find in more convenient to do a 30 minute walk to the Hucknall Tram stop and pay the £3.50 return to Nottingham on the tram. Much better than almost £6 return on the 141 with the very infrequent service. Incidentally, it actually costs more for the short journey into Hucknall from Papplewick on the 141 than it does from Hucknall to right into Nottingham on the tram or train!

Perhaps now is the time to try to restore a more regular service with good advertising and reasonable fares. There has been so many new houses built along the route between Hucknall and Nottingham and some very significant large scale developments planned for here and the Linby and Papplewick area in the next few years.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Perhaps now is the time to try to restore a more regular service with good advertising and reasonable fares. There has been so many new houses built along the route between Hucknall and Nottingham and some very significant large scale developments planned for here and the Linby and Papplewick area in the next few years.

I think the 141 needs splitting. I'd have a 30minute Nottingham -Bestwood Village- Hucknall using this:
A Nottingham-Bulwell-Bestwood Village-Vaughan Est-Hucknall Market
B Nottingham-Bestwood Village-Hucknall-Papplewick Hall.
Possibly with B running every 90mins in the evenings/Sundays over the main section?
That gives enhanced levels that potentially reflect the growing housing market in the area. It would therefore replace the existing 141 & 228/728.

I would then run the 141 direct from Ravenshead Little John to Nottingham possibly via the village centre and Longdale Lane onto the A614. Therefore not competing with Pronto.
In the Evenings & Sundays the Sherwood Arrow could use the A60, Haywood Oaks Lane, Blidworth, Rainworth, Southwell Rd East to the White Post. Probably add on 10+ minutes to journey times but would at least provide a link at minimum cost.

I realise some links (to Hucknall etc) would be lost but direct buses to Nottingham from Blidworth etc would be of greater benefit to most.
Just an idea...

 

[ashworth]

I think the 141 needs splitting. I'd have a 30minute Nottingham -Bestwood Village- Hucknall using this:
A Nottingham-Bulwell-Bestwood Village-Vaughan Est-Hucknall Market
B Nottingham-Bestwood Village-Hucknall-Papplewick Hall.
Possibly with B running every 90mins in the evenings/Sundays over the main section?
That gives enhanced levels that potentially reflect the growing housing market in the area. It would therefore replace the existing 141 & 228/728.

I would then run the 141 direct from Ravenshead Little John to Nottingham possibly via the village centre and Longdale Lane onto the A614. Therefore not competing with Pronto.
In the Evenings & Sundays the Sherwood Arrow could use the A60, Haywood Oaks Lane, Blidworth, Rainworth, Southwell Rd East to the White Post. Probably add on 10+ minutes to journey times but would at least provide a link at minimum cost.

I realise some links (to Hucknall etc) would be lost but direct buses to Nottingham from Blidworth etc would be of greater benefit to most.
Just an idea...

I think there are some quite good ideas here. The current route and timetable of the Trent Barton 141 bus is perhaps now well past its sell by date. The whole roundabout route from Mansfield to Nottingham via Rainworth, Blidworth, Ravenshead, Papplewick, Linby, Hucknall and Bestwood Village is just the old Midland General B8 route. Although most evening services have been cut, extra peak journeys have gone, and the complete Sunday service has been axed, the timings of the remaining hourly daytime service are still almost identical to what they were when I used the B8 service to and from school in Hucknall between 40 and 50 years ago!

To come back to the ideas above I think your idea of an the hourly service A is perfect to replace the 228/728 route and to enhance the current 141 service by running through to Nottingham. Would it also be possible to include a loop around the huge new Papplewick Green Estate where there must be a demand for journeys to both Nottingham and Hucknall. It could also run via into Nottingham from Bulwell via Basford and Hyson Green which lost its Trent Barton service when the tram began running.

However, I would not terminate the Service B at Papplewick Hall. There are quite a large number of passengers who use the 141 to travel from the Ravenshead area to and from Hucknall and also perhaps less important a smaller number of passengers from Linby and Papplewick to Mansfield. I would suggest continuing to run this as an hourly service to Mansfield but straight up the A60 from Ravenshead. This would provide a much needed link from Hucknall to West Notts College at Mansfield and also a much more direct and faster route between Hucknall and Mansfield than is currently provided by any of the Rainbow 3 routes. Hucknall to Mansfield could be achieved in well under 30 minutes by this route. An additional hourly service along the A60 just between Ravenshead and Mansfield wouldn't really affect the Pronto loadings very much.

The other part of the route via Rainworth and Blidworth does not really need a service to the Hucknall area. Going direct to Nottingham via the A60 or A614 would be better, but apart from Peak times do Blidworth and Rainworth really need an hourly bus to Nottingham as they both look more towards Mansfield. If this was to run I'd like to suggest that it ran via Arnold Town Centre to provide a service from Mansfield and Ravenshead not provided by Pronto.

I don't suppose any of this will happen but it's fun to think about. However, there is significant new house building taking place along many sections of the 141 route but the service continues to be reduced. These are not small isolated rural communities that are without Sunday and evening bus services.

 

[WillPS]

The digital 'next bus' displays in Nottingham were today advising that Kangaroo tickets issued by AOT were not being accepted by other operators (which would surely render them pointless; other than as an all day AOT ticket within that area?).

Anybody know of any background to this?

 

[Mitch in Notts]

I know from issues on their facebook page that AOT have been issuing them from Hucknall Estates when the boundary is Bulwell Hall. Kangaroo tickets issued by other operators are surcharged a £1 to travel to Hucknall. Probably something to do with that.
When Yourbus ran the 228/229/Y29 they extended the boundary from Bestwood Village to Hayden Lane Post Office and from Nuthall Island to St Patricks Church as it stated so in their publicity.

 

[WillPS]

I know from issues on their facebook page that AOT have been issuing them from Hucknall Estates when the boundary is Bulwell Hall. Kangaroo tickets issued by other operators are surcharged a £1 to travel to Hucknall. Probably something to do with that.
When Yourbus ran the 228/229/Y29 they extended the boundary from Bestwood Village to Hayden Lane Post Office and from Nuthall Island to St Patricks Church as it stated so in their publicity.

Except the tram? Surely AOT can accept whatever bits of paper they like on their own buses?

 

[Deerfold]

The digital 'next bus' displays in Nottingham were today advising that Kangaroo tickets issued by AOT were not being accepted by other operators (which would surely render them pointless; other than as an all day AOT ticket within that area?).

Anybody know of any background to this?

AOT don't seem to be on the list of operators.

http://www.kangaroo.co.uk/?OPERATOR_DETAILS

Could that be the problem?

 

[Mitch in Notts]

AOT don't seem to be on the list of operators.

http://www.kangaroo.co.uk/?OPERATOR_DETAILS

Could that be the problem?

Thats an interesting list. My Kangaroo Map dated December 2013 also lists AOT, Doyles(extinct), Skills & Winson. There is no mention on the maps operator list of Kinchbus(9), Centrebus(19), Nottingham Minibuses(72-74), Nottinghamshire County Council(110) though all their routes are shown on the map.....

Nowhere can I find that there are any exclusions though....... it just says valid on all buses within the Kangaroo boundary....

 

[harry42]

L3, L4, L9, L12 up for re-tended on east midlands tenders website. Reckon NCT will keep them to be honest. 12 electric buses for the winner...

 

[WillPS]

L3, L4, L9, L12 up for re-tended on east midlands tenders website. Reckon NCT will keep them to be honest. 12 electric buses for the winner...

Who knows - I wouldn't have placed a bet on Littles getting the W3 contract but they have it.

 

[harry42]

Who knows - I wouldn't have placed a bet on Littles getting the W3 contract but they have it.

Although notts community transport now have it

 

[tbone]

New Versas have entered service on the Rainbow one and Rapid one today.

Trent' Heanor offering is now pretty strong, new buses on H1, Rapid One and Rainbow One this year and newer smarter buses on the Amberline and refurbished buses appearing on the 1A and 23.

This seems to be a market that Yourbus is targeting with the upcoming Y1 changes but Trent have five buses an hour between Heanor and Eastwood, all on nice buses. It will be a tough fight for them.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Yes 5 buses an hour in the main but look at the one hour gaps in the rainbow 1 in the morning eg between 805 & 905 from Heanor to Eastwood.
Also considering the R1 is often full on leaving Nottingham why buy buses with 4 fewer seats? Surely bigger buses would have been more sensible?
Yesterday buses were running up to 20minutes late and today my neighbour gave up after two no shows in Nuthall before 11am!

 

[WillPS]

Interesting that the 'Rainbow' brand is being retained for a single route. A far cry from the days when almost all Trent's flagship services had a Rainbow designation.

 

[tbone]

Interesting that the 'Rainbow' brand is being retained for a single route. A far cry from the days when almost all Trent's flagship services had a Rainbow designation.

The idea is that the Rainbow concept is standard, hence the rainbow bow being phased in across all buses. Buses on route a such as the Amerline and H1 certainly share a number of the features as the old rainbow routes with added extras too. I think the Rainbow name has been retained due to brand recognition.

 

[BuhSnarf]

Still think of Indigo as Rainbow 5...

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk

 

[MCR247]

I think a lot of people do, especially competitors!

 

[Robertj21a]

Still think of Indigo as Rainbow 5...

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk

Probably because Indigo is a rather silly name for it ! - it should go back to Rainbow 5.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Complaints on facebook about missing Rainbow1 last night and again this morning already. So much for these new buses.........

My stop is a timing point inbound for Nottingham with buses due at 847 then 907 then every 10minutes.
at 842 live departures is showing next bus at 907 and every 10 minutes so looks like 847 cancelled! That will have left a gap between the 832 & the 907 - which will no doubt fly down full!
Be interesting to see if the 920 out of Victoria runs....

 

[WillPS]

Probably because Indigo is a rather silly name for it ! - it should go back to Rainbow 5.

Yes, I think they may have realised their mistake though. They reasoned at the time that many referred to it as "the R5" or "the 5" and this was somehow a problem; yet the other three rainbow routes have all been renamed with the emphasis moving to the number ("the two", "i4", "the threes").

Complaints on facebook about missing Rainbow1 last night and again this morning already. So much for these new buses.........

My stop is a timing point inbound for Nottingham with buses due at 847 then 907 then every 10minutes.
at 842 live departures is showing next bus at 907 and every 10 minutes so looks like 847 cancelled! That will have left a gap between the 832 & the 907 - which will no doubt fly down full!
Be interesting to see if the 920 out of Victoria runs....

I saw some of the Versas out and about today - they look hella long, is that my eyes or are they significantly longer than the ones on The Threes?

I also saw at least one Solar out and about in the lighter colours too - unlike Trent to leave an old branded vehicle out after relaunch.

 

[MCR247]

I've heard they've had a few problems with the Versas. Also not all of them have the USB sockets fitted yet.

As for the length - are these the 11.7m versas? I believe the threes ones are 11.1m

 

[bb21]

The idea is that the Rainbow concept is standard, hence the rainbow bow being phased in across all buses. Buses on route a such as the Amerline and H1 certainly share a number of the features as the old rainbow routes with added extras too. I think the Rainbow name has been retained due to brand recognition.

Doesn't the new TB brand incorporate the rainbow colours?

It is a brand with a good reputation, which is why I suspect they are making it the standard TB image.

 

[Hyphen]

Doesn't the new TB brand incorporate the rainbow colours?

Yes - it's the old 'bow' they're getting rid of (or replacing with a semi-circle, at least), as they claim most of their passengers didn't understand why it was there.

The Rainbow Routes in Nottingham, certainly as they were first refreshed after the joint "trent barton" branding came in (when the R1/2/4/5 all got Solars), featured a rainbow-coloured bow on the sides of the vehicles, whereas all other routes had a more standard red and yellow bow.

Yes, I think they may have realised their mistake though. They reasoned at the time that many referred to it as "the R5" or "the 5" and this was somehow a problem; yet the other three rainbow routes have all been renamed with the emphasis moving to the number ("the two", "i4", "the threes").

TB do tend to go through these short-lived phases where certain ideas are deathly important, then either forgotten about very quickly or only applied sporadically.

IIRC the "indigo" name came in at very much the same time they were trialling mango, and for some reason wanted to make it match (even though mango was only available on R4 at the time). That concept got ignored very shortly after.

They went through a phase of spelling out the number ("two", "threes", "sixes", "sevens", "twenty-one") which only seems to have been applied sporadically at rebrand ("i4", "H1", "my15", "route 18", "the 21"!).

Then there's also the old "flyer" and "connection" concepts (were these meant to denote lesser routes than "rainbow"?), the blue/green circular concepts, and the return on the threes to A/B/C route indcations (after they insisted on getting rid of them on the R5 all those years ago, saying nobody understood them) that either get added/removed randomly, or just not applied consistently across the two cities at all.

I still don't know what the 'i' in i4 is supposed to mean. I still call it "the 4" and always have.

EDIT: I seem to recall, many many moons ago, the "sixes" used to be called R61, R62, etc - trying to apply "rainbow" to Derby, and failing miserably...

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes - it's the old 'bow' they're getting rid of (or replacing with a semi-circle, at least), as they claim most of their passengers didn't understand why it was there.

The Rainbow Routes in Nottingham, certainly as they were first refreshed after the joint "trent barton" branding came in (when the R1/2/4/5 all got Solars), featured a rainbow-coloured bow on the sides of the vehicles, whereas all other routes had a more standard red and yellow bow.



TB do tend to go through these short-lived phases where certain ideas are deathly important, then either forgotten about very quickly or only applied sporadically.

IIRC the "indigo" name came in at very much the same time they were trialling mango, and for some reason wanted to make it match (even though mango was only available on R4 at the time). That concept got ignored very shortly after.

They went through a phase of spelling out the number ("two", "threes", "sixes", "sevens", "twenty-one") which only seems to have been applied sporadically at rebrand ("i4", "H1", "my15", "route 18", "the 21"!).

Then there's also the old "flyer" and "connection" concepts (were these meant to denote lesser routes than "rainbow"?), the blue/green circular concepts, and the return on the threes to A/B/C route indcations (after they insisted on getting rid of them on the R5 all those years ago, saying nobody understood them) that either get added/removed randomly, or just not applied consistently across the two cities at all.

I still don't know what the 'i' in i4 is supposed to mean. I still call it "the 4" and always have.

EDIT: I seem to recall, many many moons ago, the "sixes" used to be called R61, R62, etc - trying to apply "rainbow" to Derby, and failing miserably...

Your list is a good example of where marketing hype takes over from the real world. Whatever Alex Hornby may say or do I really do wonder if the travelling public is that bothered about the brand name/image. What they like is the smart, clean, bus coupled with good customers skills from the driver. Giving a route a dedicated livery probably helps quite a bit but are passengers really interested in all of his other marketing gimmicks ?

Run the service at the advertised time and ensure it's a good, clean, bus with a good driver and you don't need any more gimmickry.

 

[WillPS]

There were lots of 'Rainbow Routes' in the 90s which lost their 'Rainbow' designation in the late 90s/early 00s. TransPeak was the R1 for a bit.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

And Derby had quite a few Rainbow routes - certainly Allestree was in the R50s series. Would have thought Spondon & Mickleover were Rainbows as well.
And yes many people forget that the original R1 was what is now transpeak and that the current R1 was R10 to R13.

 

[CallySleeper]

Your list is a good example of where marketing hype takes over from the real world. Whatever Alex Hornby may say or do I really do wonder if the travelling public is that bothered about the brand name/image. What they like is the smart, clean, bus coupled with good customers skills from the driver. Giving a route a dedicated livery probably helps quite a bit but are passengers really interested in all of his other marketing gimmicks ?

Run the service at the advertised time and ensure it's a good, clean, bus with a good driver and you don't need any more gimmickry.

Alex Hornby would probably tell you it's come from market research...

and then there's the pronto, which is a walking disaster xD