Notice of prosecution response time!!

[7454567]

Hi everyone,

My boyfriend got a letter of notice of intent to prosecute back in March for an incident that took place on 9th November.

He was unable to buy a ticket until he was on the train, he then bought the ticket, and was stopped by an inspector once he got off, who then said his ticket wasn’t valid.

He replied via email to the notice and was apologetic and explain what happened and attached a pic of the ticket which was valid from the stop he got on at to the one he got off at.

It’s 6 weeks today and there has been no reply, he also didn't get a confirmation when it’s initially sent, but the email has been triple checked.

Is it normal to not get an automated reply when sending it’s to their fraud department? How long would they usually take to reply?

Just worried as the 6 months is up soon and don’t want them to start proceedings just due to time constraints

Thanks

 

[John R]

Which company is involved? If they have your reply then they have until 9th May to serve papers of prosecution to the court, so they don't have much time to do so.

Some companies don't let you reply by email - it would be helpful to know which email address you replied to - was it one specifically mentioned on the letter as accepting replies?

 

[7454567]

It was from children railways, yes they said you can reply using the email provided on the letter. Just thought it was strange there was no automatic reply

 

[John R]

OK, just to be aware, it's Chiltern Railways.

If you are able to provide a copy of what you sent (please blank out any identifying details, eg name, address, reference number, for your own privacy) then experts here can let you know whether it is likely to result in an out of court settlement offer. (Most do, but we did see one case recently where the reply was particularly inappropriate, and swiftly resulted in court papers being served).

 

[7454567]

OK, just to be aware, it's Chiltern Railways.

If you are able to provide a copy of what you sent (please blank out any identifying details, eg name, address, reference number, for your own privacy) then experts here can let you know whether it is likely to result in an out of court settlement offer. (Most do, but we did see one case recently where the reply was particularly inappropriate, and swiftly resulted in court papers being served).

This was the reply:

Good evening

I have just received the attached Notice of Intended Prosecution letter from yourselves today.

In response to your comments stating that 'following an investigation by Chiltern Railways Fraud Unit, we have identified that you travelled on Saturday 2nd November 2024 between Small Heath and Birmingham Moor Street, you failed to purchase a valid rail ticket for your entire rail journey', I state that I am willing to cooperate fully with your investigation into this matter.

I have explained the events of that day below:

• I was travelling between Small Heath station and Birmingham Moor Street station to spend time with friends
• I don't usually travel from Small Heath, but as my girlfriend was working nearby Small Heath station that evening, she dropped me off in the car to Small Heath station
• Before I got on the train, I attempted to purchase a ticket for the train journey from Small Heath-Moor St but the 4G signal on my phone was poor and it kept loading and reloading when I was purchasing the ticket
• I on boarded the train hoping that my phone would reconnect and the purchase of the train ticket went through before the train departed
• Unfortunately, the train departed and I got off at the next stop which was Birmingham Moor Street where I could get 4G signal on my phone and I did purchase a ticket immediately (as you can see from the attached screenshots to this email)
• While I was in the queue to go through the barriers, I was collared by a confrontational staff member who I showed my ticket to who then said it was invalid for my journey to which I then explained to him the situation. He said that I needed to show him ID or he was going to call the Police. I advised that I was not carrying ID but was happy to provide my name and address which I did.

I would like to state that I am very sorry for what happened that day, and point out that I was not trying to avoid paying my rail fare for the journey between Small Heath and Birmingham Moor Street, hence why I purchased a ticket as soon as was physically possible.

In hindsight, I have since learnt my lesson and would never, ever again onboard a train again without purchasing a ticket prior.

I would like to apologise sincerely for what happened. What can we do to resolve this?

Kind regards

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Apr 2025 ==

Sorry I also got the date of incident wrong it’s the 2nd November not the 9th giving them 5 days before the 6 months is up

 

[John R]

Ok, well they are certainly short of time to serve papers (assuming they haven’t already and the corresponding fence has been missed). After 6 months they cannot prosecute and only take civil action to recover any unpaid fare.

Putting that aside, one issue might be that they suspect him of short faring. Bluntly, the scenario described in the email does have several of the hallmarks that we regularly see for those who try to explain away why they were buying a ticket from so close to a main terminus. If they see that he lives some distance away, and has often bought tickets from Small Heath or Bordesley, they may suspect him of being a serial short farer. (I’m not accusing him of doing that, just that it might seem like that to the investigators, who will typically review previous purchases).

If you are confident that the email was sent to the correct address, and you have not missed a response, then I would be inclined to do nothing at this stage.

 

[7454567]

He doesn’t usually travel in Birmingham so would be unlikely they can look back and find anything relating to that but he has never fare evaded or had the intention to it was just an unfortunate situation but I know that’s no excuse, If they did serve papers how long would it be before we found out? Is it likely we could never hear from them again?

 

[WesternLancer]

He doesn’t usually travel in Birmingham so would be unlikely they can look back and find anything relating to that, and if it hypothetically was the case where they looked back that would an assumption on their end and wouldn’t be able to be proven anyway ? If they did serve papers how long would it be before we found out? Is it likely we could never hear from them again?

Have you checked for follow ups by hard copy post? And I assume your boyfriend has not moved house since the incident or earlier post was sent if it came hard copy?

Just a thought.

 

[John R]

He doesn’t usually travel in Birmingham so would be unlikely they can look back and find anything relating to that, and if it hypothetically was the case where they looked back that would an assumption on their end and wouldn’t be able to be proven anyway ? If they did serve papers how long would it be before we found out? Is it likely we could never hear from them again?

That’s good to hear that they are unlikely to suspect anything.

(But if they did, they don’t have to prove anything as they just add on the cost of the suspected journeys to the settlement cost offered to avoid prosecution. If the individual doesn’t want to pay they get taken to court for the one offence when they were caught. Anyway, doesn’t sound like it will be a concern here from what you say.)

 

[WesternLancer]

If they did serve papers how long would it be before we found out?

I’ve read on here that it could be a bit over the six month deadline before you get to hear as the court process of notifying you may take a few weeks after the train company puts the case to the court

Also we see some train operators serving the papers with an out of court offer at the same time so they don’t miss the deadline iirc

Is it likely we could never hear from them again?

Possibly but I suspect not likely. They may even try to secure money from you in the hope you don’t know there is a deadline after which they can’t bring a prosecution.

 

[Hadders]

Chiltern are normally pretty robust in following this sort of case up and I'd say it is unusual not to get a response.

It is a legal requirement to possess a ticket before you board the train. Small Heath has a ticket machine so was there a reason why your boyfriend didn't use this to buy a ticket?

In terms of next steps, it depends on your appetite for risk. There's essentially two options:

1. Contact Chiltern and ask them if they received your reply. Chiltern normally offer out of court settlements in these sort of cases as long as you co-operate with them and haven't come to their attention before.

2. Do nothing, it's not your job to chase Chiltern. It's possible that a prosecution will time out as six months will pass but it's also possible that they didn't receive your reply and are in the process of sending the case to court.

 

[7454567]

Thanks everyone, does anyone know if you should receive and automated reply when emailing their fraud unit, at the moment there is no confirmation they received anything but the email has been sent to the correct address after triple checking

 

[Hadders]

Thanks everyone, does anyone know if you should receive and automated reply when emailing their fraud unit, at the moment there is no confirmation they received anything but the email has been sent to the correct address after triple checking

I don't know for definite, but I'd be surprised if you didn't get an automated reply.

 

[7454567]

Thanks, do they usually sent a fine/court paper through the post, he hasn’t changed address at all and the original notice came through the post

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, do they usually sent a fine/court paper through the post, he hasn’t changed address at all and the original notice came through the post

I would say yes by post.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Apr 2025 ==

Thanks everyone, does anyone know if you should receive and automated reply when emailing their fraud unit, at the moment there is no confirmation they received anything but the email has been sent to the correct address after triple checking

If you are concerned about if they have not received your previous e-mailed reply you could perhaps either (or ideally both)

- Resend it by e-mail (with a one line addition at the top simply stating 'As previously sent on x date'

and

- print it and add on the top (hand written if easiest) 'As sent by e-mail on x date' - make sure it includes your ref number, postal and e-mail address, then send it First Class Post with tracking service from a local post office - assuming you have a postal address to send it to (not the much more expensive Guaranteed Next day delivery the Post office might suggest but I suspect that is not necessary - tracked will allow you to know if it definitely got to them which is your objective)

Of course this is back to @Hadders point in post #11 about your appetite for risk as sending this stuff of course reduces the chance of them having 'forgotten about it' significantly.

Having said all this the original thing your boyfriend did is not seemingly a case of deliberate premediated fare evasion - which would be more likely to warrant court - but you would thus in my view not want to end up in court simply because of an administrative mess up their end - eg your e-mail never received or lost.

 

[7454567]

Surely if the email was sent to the correct place and an error on their end means u end up in court you would then be able to argue it with them? Does anyone know roughly how long a reply takes, it has been over 6 weeks now I have seen a few posts where it’s been months and then a fine has come through, if they are past the point the can prosecute and try and fine u, can u then argue not paying it?

 

[Hadders]

Surely if the email was sent to the correct place and an error on their end means u end up in court you would then be able to argue it with them? Does anyone know roughly how long a reply takes, it has been over 6 weeks now I have seen a few posts where it’s been months and then a fine has come through, if they are past the point the can prosecute and try and fine u, can u then argue not paying it?

That’s the point! You’d have to argue with them at that point and it’s possible that Chiltern might not want to play ball.

 

[Pushpit]

Surely if the email was sent to the correct place and an error on their end means u end up in court you would then be able to argue it with them? Does anyone know roughly how long a reply takes, it has been over 6 weeks now I have seen a few posts where it’s been months and then a fine has come through, if they are past the point the can prosecute and try and fine u, can u then argue not paying it?

You don't have a lot of leeway here, Chiltern can prosecute every case if they wish, and there is still a few days before the deadline. My suspicion, given the wording used in post 5, is that they are checking for any short fare history.

 

[WesternLancer]

Surely if the email was sent to the correct place and an error on their end means u end up in court you would then be able to argue it with them? Does anyone know roughly how long a reply takes, it has been over 6 weeks now I have seen a few posts where it’s been months and then a fine has come through, if they are past the point the can prosecute and try and fine u, can u then argue not paying it?

Well probably you could indeed - but this is the scenario most people want to avoid - ie going to court and arguing about such stuff in the first place - because you have to imagine a scenario where you have to go to court, probably hang about there most of the day until you case is called, deal with a professional prosecutor acting on behalf of the railway company etc, and seek to try to persuade magistrates that you should not be in court, despite the fact that an actual ticketing offence was committed that the evidence exists to support that offence did indeed happen, and that your boyfriend is guilty of boarding a train without a ticket. Your boyfriend probably even admitted he bought his ticket after boarding when stopped and questioned, so admitted he was guilty of what I understand is called a 'strict liability offence' - ie you just have to get on the train without the valid ticket and you are guilty.

And I'm not sure how what you might be arguing with them might play out, and this is the risk - you'd be saying to the magistrates 'I tried to co-operate and ask if I could make an out of court settlement but I never heard back' to which the railway company might say 'we have no record of receiving that request, and in any case we are now prosecuting over this matter'.

I don't have expertise on the court process at all, but others here will do - so of course I'd welcome anyone who says I am wrong with the contents of this post.

 

[7454567]

Hi everyone still no reply after sending the email on the 17th march, the 6 months passed on the 2nd may, do u think its worth a follow up email?

 

[30907]

Hi everyone still no reply after sending the email on the 17th march, the 6 months passed on the 2nd may, do u think its worth a follow up email?

6 months from 9th Nov is 9th May.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone still no reply after sending the email on the 17th march, the 6 months passed on the 2nd may, do u think its worth a follow up email?

Assuming that you gave Chiltern your correct postal address, then I wouldn't do anything at this point.

It could be that a letter from the court is still on its way to you (the six months are for Chiltern to inform the court: the court then still has to inform you) in which case you aren't in the clear yet.

Or it could be that Chiltern have decided not to do anything, in which case contacting them will waste your (and their) time.

Or just possibly they have written and it's got lost in the post. In that case there are ways to sort the matter out later. They're messy but they do work. So again it's better not to do anything now.

Give it another couple of weeks in case there's something still in the post. Then if you still haven't heard, you can start to relax.

(Edit - and also bear in mind @30907 's correction to your arithmetic)

 

[7454567]

Hi all, after my bf receiving a Nip from Chiltern over 7 weeks ago for not having the correct ticket the response today is attached below. He know he had a job Center one but it was years ago, the job Center issue it so there is no bank statement trail and he has long since thrown it away. He turned 25 in December 2023 which we think is why they asking for railcard proof after this but he then got his car September 2024, so essentially if he can’t prove the job Center railcard they are looking at a period of a year, he is sure he bought a 26-30 one but bought it in person. Has anyone ever had this. What is the likely fine if he can’t get the proof for a years worth of tickets?

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum. It would be helpful to find out more backgrond as to the previous correspondence and interactions with Chiltern.

Chiltern are way out of line in asking you to prove that a Railcard was held five years ago; no reasonable person would expect to have to keep old Railcards this long. I'd see what others have to say on that element, but my initial suggestion would be to tell them to get lost for that request (although politely, of course!).

A 26-30 Railcard can only be bought online, so your partner could not have bought this in person. It is possible he bought a 16-25 Railcard in person though; whether bought online or in person, he should be able to find at least the purchase record in his bank statements (even if not the Railcard itself) unless he paid via cash or voucher.

Chiltern will have a very hard time proving the existence of fraud, and it's notable that they (almost?) never prosecute for this. They are, to a large degree, scaremongering and going on a fishing expedition here.

They can only bring a prosecution for journeys/offences they have clear evidence of - i.e. that your partner was either caught committing, or admits to committing. For any other journeys they would need to be able to prove it was your partner who travelled on that ticket, if indeed they even have proof the ticket was used.

Any prosecution that is brought would likely be for the original incident where your partner was caught, and any fine imposed on conviction would be based on a multiple of his weekly income, plus the victim surcharge and prosecution costs. You can see the sentencing guidelines here.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Think we had a recent thread where someone was asked to provide evidence of having held a series of Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Cards over an extended period of time, and the issue was satisfactorily resolved by them proactively contacting the Jobcentre Plus office that had issued them for confirmation that this was indeed the case. Might such an approach work here?

 

[7454567]

Think we had a recent thread where someone was asked to provide evidence of having held a series of Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Cards over an extended period of time, and the issue was satisfactorily resolved by them proactively contacting the Jobcentre Plus office that had issued them for confirmation that this was indeed the case. Might such an approach work here?

Yes he will contact them as soon as they are open. I just feel he will end up unfairly convicted for a mistake or not being able to prove he help a railcard that was near enough 6 years old

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2025 ==

Welcome to the forum. It would be helpful to find out more backgrond as to the previous correspondence and interactions with Chiltern.

Chiltern are way out of line in asking you to prove that a Railcard was held five years ago; no reasonable person would expect to have to keep old Railcards this long. I'd see what others have to say on that element, but my initial suggestion would be to tell them to get lost for that request (although politely, of course!).

A 26-30 Railcard can only be bought online, so your partner could not have bought this in person. It is possible he bought a 16-25 Railcard in person though; whether bought online or in person, he should be able to find at least the purchase record in his bank statements (even if not the Railcard itself) unless he paid via cash or voucher.

Chiltern will have a very hard time proving the existence of fraud, and it's notable that they (almost?) never prosecute for this. They are, to a large degree, scaremongering and going on a fishing expedition here.

They can only bring a prosecution for journeys/offences they have clear evidence of - i.e. that your partner was either caught committing, or admits to committing. For any other journeys they would need to be able to prove it was your partner who travelled on that ticket, if indeed they even have proof the ticket was used.

Any prosecution that is brought would likely be for the original incident where your partner was caught, and any fine imposed on conviction would be based on a multiple of his weekly income, plus the victim surcharge and prosecution costs. You can see the sentencing guidelines here.

He got caught with an invalid ticket travelling between small heath to Moore street, he bought the ticket for the full journey but after he boarded the train due to a lack of phone signal, he admitted to this and apologised profusely they then only replied today after the 6 month deadline with action for fraud instead.
He 100% knows for a fact he had the jobseekers one it’s just getting the council to give the receipt over as it’s not something a person buys, wouldn’t they just charge him for those journeys between that time if he is unable to prove one we can’t really just say it was too far back so it needs to be dismissed? He has the universal credit journal to prove he was claiming for that time it’s then just a case of getting them to hand over proof of that.

He had a 16-25 railcard which I imagine is why they aren’t asking to provide proof for the missing years as it was bought on Trainline so they would be able to access it. He turned 26 in December 2023 which we think is why they are asking for proof from them. He has had a look and there were 32 journeys taken from 2023 but is unsure which ones had a railcard applied or when his 16-25 year one actually expired as he is just trying to find it.
When he got the email he was with me and didn’t understand as he has purchased said railcard, he then went on Trainline to check his tickets but there is nothing on their to suggest he has/has not applied one. I went on to check the cost of the fares but also noticed it automatically applied a railcard for me but I never get the train and never had a railcard, I’ve heard of others having Trainline automatically apply a card, I just feel he is gonna end up with a fraud conviction because a railcard expired yet Trainline continued to apply it, which I doubt would be a valid apology.
How best would u think to respond ?

 

[Cowley]

There may be a bit of confusion here because there were two threads.

Please bear that in mind when moving forward. Hopefully it’s all sorted now!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I very rarely take this line - but did your bf only receive the email you have quoted in posts #23 (EDIT and #24 - duplicate post now deleted) of the combined thread after you had posted your query about timing at #20?

If so, then it looks as if Chiltern's investigators are working overtime on a bank holiday weekend, and have identified your case as almost being out of time - but as above, if the incident was on 2 November (n.b. for readers of this, refer to post #5) then the railway are out of time to start a prosecution. So the appropriate response is to not help them with civil recovery of any money owed. So ignore their email and don't respond to it.

And if Chiltern are still reading - I don't see anything legally wrong with you using stuff you've found on the internet to pursue a case, but it's not really playing the game to use advice that has been freely given, is it? If the advice was given in any other way than an internet forum, you wouldn't have access to it - so you are (ab)using the internet for an advantage you wouldn't otherwise have. If this practice continues, I can see the advice on this forum moving away from encouraging people to 'fess up and get a quick settlement (with all the benefits that has for both customer and company), to how to fight cases in court and try to win there. That will be costly for everyone: think about the consequences of what you seem to be doing.

 

[7454567]

I very rarely take this line - but did your bf only receive the email you have quoted in posts #23 and #24 of the combined thread after you had posted your query about timing at #20?

If so, then it looks as if Chiltern's investigators are working overtime on a bank holiday weekend, and have identified your case as almost being out of time - but as above, if the incident was on 2 November (n.b. for readers of this, refer to post #5) then the railway are out of time to start a prosecution. So the appropriate response is to not help them with civil recovery of any money owed. So ignore their email and don't respond to it.

And if Chiltern are still reading - I don't see anything legally wrong with you using stuff you've found on the internet to pursue a case, but it's not really playing the game to use advice that has been freely given, is it? If the advice was given in any other way than an internet forum, you wouldn't have access to it - so you are (ab)using the internet for an advantage you wouldn't otherwise have. If this practice continues, I can see the advice on this forum moving away from encouraging people to 'fess up and get a quick settlement (with all the benefits that has for both customer and company), to how to fight cases in court and try to win there. That will be costly for everyone: think about the consequences of what you seem to be doing.

Hi yeh now u mentioned it, it was a couple hours after that post, however in their email they said they are now looking to prosecute under the fraud act which has no deadline on it? But otherwise yeh the 6 months have passed.
He has probably spent the past few hours on the phone to Trainline and his universal credit journal, he knows he has a jobseekers railcard and a 16-25 card, it’s just now trying to prove it whereas I actually feel it’s more the responsibility of Chiltern to disprove it. Although he turned 26 in December 2023 he can’t remember when he bought the railcard and if he bought it say September 2023 it would have actually been valid when he was 26 so just seems Chiltern are taking limited info and running with it in hopes something will come from it, but he actually had valid railcards for the whole period they are claiming it’s now just trying to get proof of it. And in all fairness if say the council can’t send evidence etc he is more than happy to pay whatever settlement they offer just to get rid of the stress this has caused as it was never intended to commit fraud as they claimed, and will probably never get on a train after this experience again!

 

[enyoueffsea]

He turned 25 in December 2023 which we think is why they asking for railcard proof after this

He turned 26 in December 2023 which we think is why they are asking for proof from them.

he is sure he bought a 26-30 one but bought it in person.

He had a 16-25 railcard which I imagine is why they aren’t asking to provide proof for the missing years as it was bought on Trainline so they would be able to access it.

I know the threads have been merged but there are some quite significant variations in the way this account is being presented.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 May 2025 ==

Think we had a recent thread where someone was asked to provide evidence of having held a series of Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Cards over an extended period of time, and the issue was satisfactorily resolved by them proactively contacting the Jobcentre Plus office that had issued them for confirmation that this was indeed the case. Might such an approach work here?

I was slightly dubious with that thread when the OP suggested JC+ responded in an extraordinarily quick time to a SAR and the TOC responded even quicker to close the case. The thread disappeared shortly afterwards.