Notice Of Intention To Prosecute from Thameslink

[alholmes]

I rather think all services from Kings Cross go through Finsbury Park. They may not stop there though.

Haven't you done three journeys without a valid ticket? These would be Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, Kings Cross to Potters Bar and Potters Bar to Paddington via Farringdon.

Every service from Kings Cross to Potters Bar stops at Finsbury Park (and Alexandra Palace, apart from a single late-Sunday night service) before reaching Potters Bar.

 

[Hadders]

Some observations, questions and comments....

- How did you get through the ticket barriers at Finsbury Park?
- Almost everyone making a journey between Finsbury Park and Padington would just use contactless? Why didn't you use contactless?
- Forget the issues about the time taken for GTR to write to you or the minor mis-spelling of your name, they're not relevent here
- From what you've told us you did not possess a valid ticket for your journey before you boarded the train and that is a criminal offence

GTR are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court and if they want to but they will normally offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who have not come to their attention before. It sounds as though the letter you've been sent is the standard letter GTR send to people in your situation that asks for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. I suggest writing a short, concise reply to their letter mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and GTR's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Keep the letter simple, don't mention travelling back to Finsbury Park/Potters Bar or wherever it was, just focus on the journey from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross. If you are offered an out of court settlement then expect to have to pay the cost of the fare avoided at the full Anytime rate plus an administrative fee, typically £150.

If you post a copy of your draft reply in this thread forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[Cornwallondon]

OK, everyone. This has been REALLY helpful and I thank you for it.

Let me put together my statement of mitigation and then I will share the draft with you - this may end up being Wednesday as i have a physio appointment on Tues.

Perhaps I should have waited until tmw or Wed before posting my initial message

NB Hadders - just seen what you wrote. Please give me tomorrow (Tues) to digest it properly. But, in the meantime, thankyou SO much.

KR

M

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

Do not admit to boarding further services without a ticket, as you are admitting two further Bylaw offences here on top of the one already committed.

Each time you board a train at a station where there was opportunity to pay you commit a separate and unique offence, at the moment of boarding the train.

Do not give them the explanation you are giving here. Simply apologise for being ticketless - that is, failing to buy a ticket before you boarded - and do not incriminate yourself further. They should settle for the fare due plus an administration fee of about £100, in lieu of taking the matter to the magistrates' court.

Hi AlterEgo, Hadders et al

Been a couple of days - sorry have been busy with work but thankyou for your advice.

OK - first draft of what I propose to send to Thameslink:

I had a replacement of my left hip on 16 October (I have plenty of documentary proof; what should I include?) and for probably about 6 months prior to that had not been able to walk very fast or for long distances / periods of time.
I had got to Finsbury Park station on the morning of 2 Sep and could see that the next mainline train to Kings Cross was about 2 minutes away from leaving - the one after that was quite a few minutes later. One of the barriers was open and, in an effort to catch this train, I rushed to catch it as fast as I could without touching in / getting a ticket, my intention being to buy my ticket once at Kings Cross - I put my hands up to being flustered because I was running late. I was and am aware of the possibility of getting from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross via the Underground, but this involves a lot more walking which I was, and am, loth to do until I have recovered fully from the hip replacement. I got on the train JUST before the doors closed and, once it arrived at Kings Cross, approached the barrier and asked the officer manning it if I could by my ticket. He instead took my details, the result of which appeared in the shape of the 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' from yourselves dated 4 November.

I apologise for being ticketless but would emphasise that I did intend - and attempt - to buy my ticket at Kings Cross as soon as I was able. Were it not for the then-impending hip replacement, I would have been able to walk faster and would not have been so preoccupied with getting the train I did catch, hence would have touched in at Finsbury Park. I already knew the importance of touching in /buying a ticket before travelling, but have learned from this incident that it is not always possible to buy one's ticket at the other end.

(Do I need to say anything about 'I am keen to settle the matter without the need for court action and request therefore that I am allowed to buy the ticket for this Finsbury Park to Kings Cross journey plus GTR's administration fee'?)

One thing I would also point out, not for inclusion in what I propose to send to Thameslink, is that on 21 Aug 2021 I travelled from West Ealing to Henley, changing at Twyford. At West Ealing I touched in but I did not realise that Henley, at that time, did not yet have a card reader so I could not touch out. There were revenue protection people there, who took my details and issued me with a £20 penalty fare. I was at the time due to go on holiday and did not pay this penalty fare in time, hence a couple of weeks later got sent in the post something similar to the 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' - I can't remember exactly what it was called after all this time. It said words to the effect of 'pay £130 by XX date or this will be dealt with via the Single Justice Procedure' so I paid it online and got a message saying something like 'this is the end of the matter'. I don't know whether this will be on record anywhere?

Thoughts, anyone?

 

[AlterEgo]

OK - first draft of what I propose to send to Thameslink:

I had a replacement of my left hip on 16 October (I have plenty of documentary proof; what should I include?) and for probably about 6 months prior to that had not been able to walk very fast or for long distances / periods of time.

Not being harsh but this isn't relevant and overcomplicates things. It makes no difference to your obligations here, so just scrap this part.

Start instead by directly addressing the correspondence - "thank you for your letter/email of (DATE) about an incident where I was stopped at Kings Cross by one of your staff" followed by an apology, like "I am sorry that I was found not to have bought a ticket prior to boarding my train and now understand that this is unacceptable".

I had got to Finsbury Park station on the morning of 2 Sep and could see that the next mainline train to Kings Cross was about 2 minutes away from leaving - the one after that was quite a few minutes later. One of the barriers was open and, in an effort to catch this train, I rushed to catch it as fast as I could without touching in / getting a ticket, my intention being to buy my ticket once at Kings Cross - I put my hands up to being flustered because I was running late.

This is fine.

I was and am aware of the possibility of getting from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross via the Underground, but this involves a lot more walking which I was, and am, loth to do until I have recovered fully from the hip replacement.

Also remove this. You don't need to justify your route here so don't go down that road.

I got on the train JUST before the doors closed and, once it arrived at Kings Cross, approached the barrier and asked the officer manning it if I could by my ticket. He instead took my details, the result of which appeared in the shape of the 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' from yourselves dated 4 November.

I apologise for being ticketless but would emphasise that I did intend - and attempt - to buy my ticket at Kings Cross as soon as I was able.

This is all fine.

Were it not for the then-impending hip replacement, I would have been able to walk faster and would not have been so preoccupied with getting the train I did catch, hence would have touched in at Finsbury Park. I already knew the importance of touching in /buying a ticket before travelling,

Don't say this. It is a *legal requirement* for you to buy your ticket before you board at Finsbury Park, and you committed a criminal offence by boarding a train having not done so (yes, I know it can seem bizarre, but that is what the Bylaws say). If you knew the importance - that is, it is a legal requirement - you would have bought a ticket before getting on the train. So scrap this line, they don't need to hear it.

but have learned from this incident that it is not always possible to buy one's ticket at the other end.

This isn't relevant - you have already committed the offence by this point.

(Do I need to say anything about 'I am keen to settle the matter without the need for court action and request therefore that I am allowed to buy the ticket for this Finsbury Park to Kings Cross journey plus GTR's administration fee'?)

Yes - you should close with this, saying something like "I would be grateful if you could consider allowing me to pay the fare due, and any costs you have incurred, to avoid this matter proceeding to court".

One thing I would also point out, not for inclusion in what I propose to send to Thameslink, is that on 21 Aug 2021 I travelled from West Ealing to Henley, changing at Twyford. At West Ealing I touched in but I did not realise that Henley, at that time, did not yet have a card reader so I could not touch out. There were revenue protection people there, who took my details and issued me with a £20 penalty fare. I was at the time due to go on holiday and did not pay this penalty fare in time, hence a couple of weeks later got sent in the post something similar to the 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' - I can't remember exactly what it was called after all this time. It said words to the effect of 'pay £130 by XX date or this will be dealt with via the Single Justice Procedure' so I paid it online and got a message saying something like 'this is the end of the matter'. I don't know whether this will be on record anywhere?

No, this isn't relevant, so don't include it and don't worry about it either.

Simplicity is key - they deal with dozens or hundreds of these cases a day and are incentivised to settle out of court (it's cheaper and easier for them). You don't need to worry about demonstrating your medical records or anything else.

 

[Cornwallondon]

OK, thanks a lot AlterEgo.

Are you sure about not including the hip replacement issue? It may sound like a 'dog ate my homework' excuse, but on my mother's life it IS genuine and DOES interfere with my walking speed, albeit less since the op on 16 Oct.

Next iteration:

Thank you for your letter of 4 Nov about an incident where I was stopped at Kings Cross by one of your staff on 2 Sep. I am sorry that I was found not to have bought a ticket prior to boarding my train and now understand that this is unacceptable.

I had got to Finsbury Park station on the morning of 2 Sep and could see that the next mainline train to Kings Cross was about 2 minutes away from leaving - the one after that was quite a few minutes later. One of the barriers was open and, in an effort to catch this train, I rushed to catch it as fast as I could without touching in / getting a ticket, my intention being to buy my ticket once at Kings Cross - I put my hands up to being flustered because I was running late. I got on the train JUST before the doors closed and, once it arrived at Kings Cross, approached the barrier and asked the officer manning it if I could by my ticket. He instead took my details, the result of which appeared in the shape of the 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' from yourselves dated 4 November.

(is there anything else i need to include? Have taken quite a bit out!)

I would be grateful if you could consider allowing me to pay the fare due, and any costs you have incurred, to avoid this matter proceeding to court.

Thoughts now?

PS: your YouTube channel is quite impressive AlterEgo!

 

[McReadie]

The previous reply is correct, it's irrelevant.
It may give them more ammunition.
From a Revenue viewpoint it could be seen as something you do regularly, that you only touch in at Farringdon to avoid the extra charge, this is short ticketing from the start of your journey.
Also, Paddington Elizabeth line TVMs won't allow you to purchase a ticket from Finsbury Park AT Paddington, unless it's a travel card of course.
Keep it simple, as they can pull CCTV and prosecute for additional irregularities further down the line.
Learn from it, and move on.
If you can avoid court, it's the best outcome.

 

[Hadders]

The hip replacement is irrelevent - how does it prevent you from buying a ticket?

Also, you say you've recently had a hip replacement then say you go on to say you were rushing for the train.

Just send a short, concise reply as I suggested in my earlier post. You will find plenty of examples in other threads.

 

[Cornwallondon]

The hip replacement is irrelevent - how does it prevent you from buying a ticket?

Also, you say you've recently had a hip replacement then say you go on to say you were rushing for the train.

Just send a short, concise reply as I suggested in my earlier post. You will find plenty of examples in other threads.

Hi Hadders.

What I meant to point out about the hip replacement was that, in the runup to it, it DID slow down my walking speed (and still does to a lesser extent) and the effect of that was that it took me longer than it otherwise would have done to get from the barrier to the platform, hence the lack of time to buy the ticket when the next train was due to leave in only a couple of minutes. So when I referred to rushing, I was talking about walking as fast as my hip enabled me to - but slower than I would have been without the hip issue.

But, if you (and AlterEgo) still feel it is irrelevant then I won't include it.

 

[Hadders]

Hi Hadders.

What I meant to point out about the hip replacement was that, in the runup to it, it DID slow down my walking speed (and still does to a lesser extent) and the effect of that was that it took me longer than it otherwise would have done to get from the barrier to the platform, hence the lack of time to buy the ticket when the next train was due to leave in only a couple of minutes. So when I referred to rushing, I was talking about walking as fast as my hip enabled me to - but slower than I would have been without the hip issue.

But, if you (and AlterEgo) still feel it is irrelevant then I won't include it.

It's up to you but personally I wouldn't include it. The people readng these letters at GTR see all sort of excuses, in my view the best thing to do is to just 'fess up', send a short, concise reply that they can read quickly before deciding how to proceed.

WHat I still don't understand is why you didn't use contactless for this journey?

 

[Cornwallondon]

It's up to you but personally I wouldn't include it. The people readng these letters at GTR see all sort of excuses, in my view the best thing to do is to just 'fess up', send a short, concise reply that they can read quickly before deciding how to proceed.

WHat I still don't understand is why you didn't use contactless for this journey?

As I said, I put my hands up to being flustered because I was running late. Stopping to get the wallet out of my pocket and the card out of the wallet would have caused me to miss the train.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

This account is very implausible. What time of day are we discussing? Trains calling at Potters Bar go to Moorgate or to Kings Cross. I've always had to change at Finsbury Park to get a train that goes via St Pancras International.
In my experience, trains from King's Cross that don't call at Finsbury Park are first stop Stevenage or even further out.

 

[MrJeeves]

Trains calling at Potters Bar go to Moorgate or to Kings Cross. I've always had to change at Finsbury Park to get a train that goes via St Pancras International.

It's true for most of the day, but at peak time weekdays there are some additional Thameslink services from Welwyn Garden City to Sevenoaks which will stop at Potters Bar and go through the Thameslink core to St Pancras, so it's definitely not implausible considering they said morning of 2 Sept, which was a Monday.

In my experience, trains from King's Cross that don't call at Finsbury Park are first stop Stevenage or even further out.

Kings Cross to Finsbury Park has a weekday half-hourly or better service for the majority of the day.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

The OP stated that he re-boarded the train he came in on, and it didn’t stop at Finsbury Park

 

[Cornwallondon]

Anyway, thanks all for your input.

I will send it off to Thameslink but I won't include the hip replacement. I guess I was banging on about that so much as I was hoping it would get me some 'sympathy vote' but I didn't post here asking for advice just to ignore it.

 

[notmyrealname]

I think people are generally sympathetic, but from experience know that the TOCs aren't. What the TOC might see as a sob story won't make any difference.

 

[Haywain]

I think people are generally sympathetic, but from experience know that the TOCs aren't.

I don't think that's the case at all, but in a fare evasion case it makes little difference. After all, the OP really can't claim that the hip operation was an unexpected circumstance on the day that they travelled.

 

[Mzzzs]

The OP stated that he re-boarded the train he came in on, and it didn’t stop at Finsbury Park

They do if it stops at potter Bar they stop at Finsbury it’s an important interchange. I’ve used this service every few days for 6 months this year not once from a range of times has it not stopped at Finsbury.

 

[Cornwallondon]

They do if it stops at potter Bar they stop at Finsbury it’s an important interchange. I’ve used this service every few days for 6 months this year not once from a range of times has it not stopped at Finsbury.

Hi - Hadders and AlterEgo suggested at #34, #37 and #39 that I keep it brief and not mention the travelling north again via Potter's Bar bit, so that's now academic.

Thanks

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Hi - Hadders and AlterEgo suggested at #34, #37 and #39 that I keep it brief and not mention the travelling north again via Potter's Bar bit, so that's now academic.

Thanks

Indeed. It would open a can of worms best kept closed.

 

[Cornwallondon]

Hi all. Is it OK for me to email my statement of mitigation to them (gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com) or must it be by post?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all. Is it OK for me to email my statement of mitigation to them (gtr.prosecutions@gtrailway.com) or must it be by post?

personally it's vital that they get it - so I would do both (and with post send it tracked postage from a post office) - ensure it clearly states your case reference number and full name and postal address. For the posted one you can always write on it 'as also sent by e-mail'

It's strongly in your interest to make sure they get it / make sure you know they have got it / make sure it's not lost when they do get it...

Do everything you can to make things easier for them when they are handling your case alongside hundreds of others. It's in your interests to do so.

 

[Cornwallondon]

personally it's vital that they get it - so I would do both (and with post send it tracked postage from a post office) - ensure it clearly states your case reference number and full name and postal address. For the posted one you can always write on it 'as also sent by e-mail'

It's strongly in your interest to make sure they get it / make sure you know they have got it / make sure it's not lost when they do get it...

Do everything you can to make things easier for them when they are handling your case alongside hundreds of others. It's in your interests to do so.

OK, thanks. Irritating to have to queue up in the post office and pay for the recorded delivery!

 

[WesternLancer]

OK, thanks. Irritating to have to queue up in the post office and pay for the recorded delivery!

Tracked is cheaper than recorded so don't let them sell you more than you need! Obv it's tedious, but nothing like as irritating as the hassle you will have to endure sorting things out if they don't get your reply

You can see other problem cases on here where this has indeed happened, and the consequences, you can browse them when you are in the queue

 

[Cornwallondon]

Tracked is cheaper than recorded so don't let them sell you more than you need! Obv it's tedious, but nothing like as irritating as the hassle you will have to endure sorting things out if they don't get your reply

You can see other problem cases on here where this has indeed happened, and the consequences, you can browse them when you are in the queue

Just as well I checked - this is the response I got:
THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC REPLY

This mailbox only deals with failed to carry season tickets or railcards.

It strictly DOES NOT deal with any sort of appeal, mitigation or complaints.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just as well I checked - this is the response I got:
THIS IS AN AUTOMATIC REPLY

This mailbox only deals with failed to carry season tickets or railcards.

It strictly DOES NOT deal with any sort of appeal, mitigation or complaints.

ah yes sorry - that reminds me that Thameslink only accept stuff by post (apart from circs you describe)

 

[Cornwallondon]

ah yes sorry - that reminds me that Thameslink only accept stuff by post (apart from circs you describe)

It's OK - I sent the hard copy (tracked) today.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's OK - I sent the hard copy (tracked) today.

FWIW having noted another case recently where the OP concerned updated at the end it was possible to work out that it was dealt with in about 4 to 6 weeks from the point at which they got stopped to the point that in their case they were offered a settlement out of court.

 

[Cornwallondon]

FWIW having noted another case recently where the OP concerned updated at the end it was possible to work out that it was dealt with in about 4 to 6 weeks from the point at which they got stopped to the point that in their case they were offered a settlement out of court.

Ouch, that makes me wonder why it took them 2 months in my case to even get as far as sending me the NIP

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2024 ==

Hi all. You were all really helpful and so I wanted to share what I got in the post today: they have agreed to settle for £87 including the cost of the ticket.

Phew!

Thanks again for your help

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2024 ==

I don't understand why it automerged.......

 

[WesternLancer]

Ouch, that makes me wonder why it took them 2 months in my case to even get as far as sending me the NIP

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2024 ==

Hi all. You were all really helpful and so I wanted to share what I got in the post today: they have agreed to settle for £87 including the cost of the ticket.

Phew!

Thanks again for your help

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2024 ==

I don't understand why it automerged.......

stuff does automerge here and sometimes it's not ideal....

But - that sounds like good news and thanks for updating us - always useful for other people to see in future

 

[Cornwallondon]

But - that sounds like good news and thanks for updating us - always useful for other people to see in future

Yes, I hoped it would be of use to others in terms of the best approach to take in writing back to them.

Also shows you guys (presumably!) that you weren't wasting your time.