Notice Of Intention To Prosecute from Thameslink

[Cornwallondon]

Hi all

My first post in this forum - what an unfortunate reason to have to post this!

On 5 Nov I received the above-mentioned 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' from Thameslink, dated 4 Nov, following my being stopped at Kings Cross on the morning of 2 Sep without a ticket. It informed me of their intention to take the matter to a Magistrates' Court and says for me to state what happened from my point of view within 14 days.

I hadn't intended to travel to or via Kings Cross but the train had terminated at Kings Cross (the street level bit) when I had expected it to pass via the below-ground Kings Cross Thameslink station and then onto Farringdon where I had intended to change to the Elizabeth.Line.

I bought a return ticket for the entire journey later that morning but after all this time had assumed I was never going to hear back and don't think I have the ticket any more.

So, as you can imagine, I was a bit surprised to get this letter after more than 2 months - certainly for a speeding or other motoring ticket a NIP must be sent out within 14 days. Plus this letter misspells my surname (with an 's' that it shouldn't contain) and puts my flat number as 54a which is the upstairs flat when in fact I live at 54 the downstairs property.

Any thoughts on what I should do / say gratefully appreciated.

Many thanks

Mark

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all

My first post in this forum - what an unfortunate reason to have to post this!

On 5 Nov I received the above-mentioned 'Notice Of Intention To Prosecute' from Thameslink, dated 4 Nov, following my being stopped at Kings Cross on the morning of 2 Sep without a ticket. It informed me of their intention to take the matter to a Magistrates' Court and says for me to state what happened from my point of view within 14 days.

I hadn't intended to travel to or via Kings Cross but the train had terminated at Kings Cross (the street level bit) when I had expected it to pass via the below-ground Kings Cross Thameslink station and then onto Farringdon where I had intended to change to the Elizabeth.Line.

I bought a return ticket for the entire journey later that morning but after all this time had assumed I was never going to hear back and don't think I have the ticket any more.

So, as you can imagine, I was a bit surprised to get this letter after more than 2 months - certainly for a speeding or other motoring ticket a NIP must be sent out within 14 days. Plus this letter misspells my surname (with an 's' that it shouldn't contain) and puts my flat number as 54a which is the upstairs flat when in fact I live at 54 the downstairs property.

Any thoughts on what I should do / say gratefully appreciated.

Many thanks

Mark

It would help to see the paperwork or emails associated with this - can you provide these, with your personal details redacted?

You say you were caught "without a ticket". Do you mean you were completely ticketless, or had you used contactless, or did you in fact have *a* ticket but not one for the journey to King's Cross? If you had a ticket, exactly what sort of ticket was it?

What was the journey you were intending to make - between which two stations? And which train did you actually take, leaving you at King's Cross?

So, as you can imagine, I was a bit surprised to get this letter after more than 2 months - certainly for a speeding or other motoring ticket a NIP must be sent out within 14 days. Plus this letter misspells my surname (with an 's' that it shouldn't contain) and puts my flat number as 54a which is the upstairs flat when in fact I live at 54 the downstairs property.

This part - train companies like any other prosecuting authority can prosecute you up to 6 months after the offence, so there is no sense of them being out of time here. The incorrect address and misspelled surname are incumbent on you to correct; it is likely they made a contemporaneous note of your details at the time and mistakes can happen. Nothing turns on a misspelling or wrong address.

 

[Cornwallondon]

Hello AlterEgo - thanks for response.

What actually happened was I had got to the station (Finsbury Park) and could see that what I thought was a Thameslink train was about a minute and a half away from leaving. The next one was a good 20-25 mins later and I had to get to Paddington for another mainline train to Exeter. The barriers were open and I ran for it without touching in / getting a ticket, my intention being to buy my ticket once at Paddington - I put my hands up to being flustered because I was running late. I got on the train JUST before the doors closed and only then realised it was going to stop at Kings Cross not St Pancras International. There was nothing I could do and so once it reached Kings Cross it stopped at the street level bit (also a terminus) rather than St Pancras International. I thought that if I said to the person at the barrier that I had gotten the wrong train as I had been in a hurry and that I would buy a ticket there and then, I could get through and then make my way to the St Pancras entrance for the Thameslink to travel on to Farringdon. Wrong - he still took my details. By this point I had managed to do a bit of googling (he had kept me waiting a good 10 mins and it was obvious I wasn't going to get the intended train out of Paddington) and I had discovered that if I got back on the same train as I had arrived on then this train would head north from Kings Cross, not via Finsbury Park but eventually it would intersect with Thameslink trains that DID head south through St Pancras International - so that is what I did and eventually got to Paddington via Farringdon.

Once at Paddington about 55 mins later I bought an anytime Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket for that day and this remained unused in my wallet until fairly recently by which time I had assumed that if I was going to hear from them I'd have done so by now.

Time limit / misspelling / wrong address - noted. Clutching at straws.

Redacted correspondence attached.

Thanks
M

 

[John R]

The ticket you bought is irrelevant, as is any ticket purchased “after the event” when stopped.

I’m not sure why you didn’t just carry on your journey from KX main line station to Paddington. I’m not sure anything hangs on that, but the Circle Line would have been much quicker than the circuitous route you took.

Ultimately you were caught without a ticket and need to reply apologising (don’t bother making excuses), promising not to do it again, and ask very nicely if they will consider an out of court settlement instead of prosecuting. Try to avoid using AI when drafting this, and do post a copy here so we can comment.

 

[jfollows]

The 14-day thing is more specific to motoring legislation and has to do with the fact that the police only know the details of the car and not of the driver. They still have a 6 month limit to initiate prosecution.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I hadn't intended to travel to or via Kings Cross but the train had terminated at Kings Cross (the street level bit) when I had expected it to pass via the below-ground Kings Cross Thameslink station and then onto Farringdon where I had intended to change to the Elizabeth.Line.

If heading to Paddington, what's wrong with the Circle/ H&C lines?

But the real problem is boarding a train without a ticket. Increasingly it seems that it's not acceptable to buy a ticket when already on a train or at the destination or not just touch in with Oyster or contactless within the London area.

Being London area, tickets bought on phones would need a physical manifestation at a machine.

 

[Cornwallondon]

The 14-day thing is more specific to motoring legislation and has to do with the fact that the police only know the details of the car and not of the driver. They still have a 6 month limit to initiate prosecution.

Noted - thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

If heading to Paddington, what's wrong with the Circle/ H&C lines?

But the real problem is boarding a train without a ticket. Increasingly it seems that it's not acceptable to buy a ticket when already on a train or at the destination or not just touch in with Oyster or contactless within the London area.

Being London area, tickets bought on phones would need a physical manifestation at a machine.

MarlowDonkey (and John R) - the Elizabeth was faster, plus force of habit; I frequently travel between Hanwell and Finsbury Park changing from Elizabeth to Thameslink at Farringdon. Plus I was getting impatient with being detained at Kings Cross and was looking for any way out of the situation apart from going through the barrier there which didn't look like I was going to be able to do without pushing through it.

I did buy a physical ticket from a machine at Paddington, paid for by debit card.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It is incomprehensible why a journey from Finsbury Park to Paddington should involve Thameslink or Farringdon. The TfL Journey Planner gives 2 options.
a) Victoria line to Oxford Circus, then Bakerloo to Paddington
b) Victoria line to Kings Cross, then Circle line to Paddington.
Having arrived at Kings Cross, it is a no-brainer to take a Circle Line or H&C line to Paddington.
For the current situation, all the OP can do is write in apologetically, hoping that the TOC will offer them an out of court settlement for travelling without a ticket from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross.

 

[John R]

So once you had been spoken to at KX, were you given something to let you through the barriers there, or did you just walk off? If the latter, how did you get through the gateline at Paddington

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It is incomprehensible why a journey from Finsbury Park to Paddington should involve Thameslink or Farringdon.

If travelling beyond Paddington on the Elizabeth Line, going via Farringdon may be an easier and faster route. Perhaps less so if needing to take a train from the main Paddington station. Finsbury Park as noted has several possible routes using Picadilly or Victoria lines.

I should imagine Hanwell is a relatively lightly used station. Does it have barriers? I don't think there are barriers between the Thameslink platforms at Farringdon and the Elizabeth line ones.

 

[bakerstreet]

It is incomprehensible why a journey from Finsbury Park to Paddington should involve Thameslink or Farringdon. The TfL Journey Planner gives 2 options.
a) Victoria line to Oxford Circus, then Bakerloo to Paddington
b) Victoria line to Kings Cross, then Circle line to Paddington.
Having arrived at Kings Cross, it is a no-brainer to take a Circle Line or H&C line to Paddington.
For the current situation, all the OP can do is write in apologetically, hoping that the TOC will offer them an out of court settlement for travelling without a ticket from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross.

Although see below.

- the first option on National Rail Enq is via Farringdon (28 mins).

- Second option is via Circle line from Kings Cross (slower at 36 mins)

 

[John R]

It’s irrelevant why the OP chose to make the journey via the Elizabeth Line in the first place, so let’s not debate that please.

However, once at KX, they then chose to double back to Finsbury Park, which is very odd, and they still don’t appear to have had a ticket for the journey, hence asking why they did that.

OP - did you walk off from the inspector, otherwise you would normally be allowed through the barrier having been spoken to?

 

[Cornwallondon]

OP - did you walk off from the inspector, otherwise you would normally be allowed through the barrier having been spoken to?

John R - yes I did walk off from the inspector at KX (having been detained for >10 mins and counting, with no sign of being allowed to pass through the barriers unless I pushed through them) and that is why I ended up getting back on the train I had just got off and riding it north until it intersected with a Thameslink service heading south via Farringdon which is the route I was intending to travel originally from FP.

 

[swt_passenger]

… I had discovered that if I got back on the same train as I had arrived on then this train would head north from Kings Cross, not via Finsbury Park but eventually it would intersect with Thameslink trains that DID head south through St Pancras International - so that is what I did and eventually got to Paddington via Farringdon.

So you made 3 journeys? Finsbury Park to Kings Cross with no ticket, then Kings Cross to ‘somewhere’ north of Finsbury Park where you could ‘intersect’ - but still with no ticket? Then from that ‘somewhere’ back through Finsbury Park to Paddington Elizabeth Line via Farringdon. Were any of those 3 legs paid for, and did you exit normally using the gateline at Paddington low level?

I wouldn’t try and explain all that to GTR Thameslink. How did you enter Finsbury Park in the first place, assuming that’s where you actually started? Doesn’t it have barriers?

 

[Titfield]

As stated by @John R you need to draft a suitable letter of apology (following the excellent advice @Hadders has provided on many occasions) and hope they are minded to offer you an out of court settlement.

Should this go to court then on the basis of the information you have provided already (and how it would be viewed by the magistrates) the outcome will almost certainly be far worse financially and you will have a criminal record as well.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

So you made 3 journeys? Finsbury Park to Kings Cross with no ticket, then Kings Cross to ‘somewhere’ north of Finsbury Park where you could ‘intersect’ - but still with no ticket? Then from that ‘somewhere’ back through Finsbury Park to Paddington Elizabeth Line via Farringdon. Were any of those 3 legs paid for, and did you exit normally using the gateline at Paddington low level?

I think what he is saying is that he took the train he arrived on back to Finsbury Park. That was because the man at the Kings Cross barrier wouldn't let him out without a valid ticket. Once at Finsbury Park he changed to a southbound service via St Pancras low level and then to the Elizabeth Line at Farrington. If at some time before boarding the second time at Finsbury Park, he had purchased a ticket, he should then be legal for the second attempt. But is it possible to buy Finsbury Park to Paddington on a phone without getting a paper ticket out of a machine?

If the northbound service didn't stop at Finsbury Park, he would have had to change at the first stop,

 

[John R]

So two final questions, just so we have the full picture of your journey that morning:-

1) How did you get through the barriers at Paddington (Elizabeth Line), and 2) which station did you change at when you headed back north (all trains heading into the core stop at Finsbury Park, so unless your northbound train didn't stop there, it would have been the obvious place to change)?

 

[swt_passenger]

I think what he is saying is that he took the train he arrived on back to Finsbury Park.

If you check the bit I quoted he wrote “not via Finsbury Park etc”…

 

[AlterEgo]

So two final questions, just so we have the full picture of your journey that morning:-

1) How did you get through the barriers at Paddington (Elizabeth Line), and 2) which station did you change at when you headed back north (all trains heading into the core stop at Finsbury Park, so unless your northbound train didn't stop there, it would have been the obvious place to change)?

It would also help if the OP has a record of their booking from Paddington to Exeter to back up this story. I don't think an investigator will be inclined to believe this at face value, given the OP's local station is unbarriered and they could exit without a ticket.

 

[Cornwallondon]

1) How did you get through the barriers at Paddington (Elizabeth Line), and 2) which station did you change at when you headed back north (all trains heading into the core stop at Finsbury Park, so unless your northbound train didn't stop there, it would have been the obvious place to change)?

Hi John R
1) At the Paddington barriers I came clean that I had got on at FP in a hurry without a ticket and asked nicely 'please let me buy my Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket right now from the machine over there' (at Paddington there is a row of machines right next to the barriers) and the guy let me do so. I duly bought my anytime Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket there and then and showed it to the guy. He nodded, I put the ticket in my wallet and left the station.
2) From KX, I got to Potters Bar (it didn't go via FP) before changing to a southbound Thameslink service which passed through FP before continuing to Farringdon where I changed to the Elizabeth. Nobody checked me after KX or at any point at Potters Bar or Farringdon until I reached the barrier at Paddington.

Thanks to the rest of you also for your kind attention:

swt_passenger - when I got on at FP originally, the barrier I went through was open (normally they aren't, don't know why this one was that day) and I made a run for it as I explained at post #3 above.
MarlowDonkey - Maybe I should have bought a Finsbury Park to Paddington ticket on my phone but didn't think of it / know it was an option. If I had, I wouldn't have needed to get the paper ticket at Paddington and it would probably have been cheaper! OR I could have bought one before trying to go through the barrier at Kings Cross in the 1st place.

 

[John R]

It would also help if the OP has a record of their booking from Paddington to Exeter to back up this story. I don't think an investigator will be inclined to believe this at face value, given the OP's local station is unbarriered and they could exit without a ticket.

I agree. That had crossed my mind too, and so if two of us had then I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of a cynical investigator to consider that possibility too.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree. That had crossed my mind too, and so if two of us had then I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of a cynical investigator to consider that possibility too.

There are numerous red flags in the OP's account and given this a simply "travelling ticketless" matter they are best off either not mentioning most of their explanation because none of it adds up.

If they do intent to mention it, they should substantiate it.

 

[Cornwallondon]

John R / AlterEgo - It's now 17.11 and I posted a response 47 minutes ago listed as #19, but there is a message above it saying 'This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to other visitors' so you may not have seen it.

Please could you confirm when you have seen it as currently it looks like I haven't answered you.

But yes I agree re the letter of apology and will post it here in draft first as you suggested.

BELOW IS WHAT I POSTED IN #19 -

Hi John R
1) At the Paddington barriers I came clean that I had got on at FP in a hurry without a ticket and asked nicely 'please let me buy my Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket right now from the machine over there' (at Paddington there is a row of machines right next to the barriers) and the guy let me do so. I duly bought my anytime Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket there and then and showed it to the guy. He nodded, I put the ticket in my wallet and left the station.
2) From KX, I got to Potters Bar (it didn't go via FP) before changing to a southbound Thameslink service which passed through FP before continuing to Farringdon where I changed to the Elizabeth. Nobody checked me after KX or at any point at Potters Bar or Farringdon until I reached the barrier at Paddington.

Thanks to the rest of you also for your kind attention:

swt_passenger - when I got on at FP originally, the barrier I went through was open (normally they aren't, don't know why this one was that day) and I made a run for it as I explained at post #3 above.
MarlowDonkey - Maybe I should have bought a Finsbury Park to Paddington ticket on my phone but didn't think of it / know it was an option. If I had, I wouldn't have needed to get the paper ticket at Paddington and it would probably have been cheaper! OR I could have bought one before trying to go through the barrier at Kings Cross in the 1st place.

 

[John R]

No, not seen it, but if you edit your post 22 to include the contents then we can see it that way!

 

[Cornwallondon]

No, not seen it, but if you edit your post 22 to include the contents then we can see it that way!

Should I do that, or should I wait a few mins for the mods to approve it - how quick are they usually on this forum? There def wasn't anything rude / insulting etc in what I wrote.

Just tried posting in #24 what I put in #19 and #22 and the same awaiting mod approval message came up. Think it's probably to do with the size of what I wrote - have to await the mods I guess.

 

[John R]

They are normally quite quick, but there is an edit function, so why not use it. I don't think it would be breaching any rules.

 

[Haywain]

Increasingly it seems that it's not acceptable to buy a ticket when already on a train or at the destination

In the south east buying a ticket on the train is, and has been for many years, very much the exception.

 

[MrJeeves]

Should I do that, or should I wait a few mins for the mods to approve it - how quick are they usually on this forum? There def wasn't anything rude / insulting etc in what I wrote.

When you're new to the forum, your posts automatically go through some algorithmic spam detection tool, and it will flag it for manual approval if it thinks what you wrote could potentially be spam-like (that applies to both new posts and editing existing posts!).

Obviously, nothing was actually spam in your replies, but it's what has to be done to prevent others abusing the forum for automated advertising and similar!

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi John R
1) At the Paddington barriers I came clean that I had got on at FP in a hurry without a ticket and asked nicely 'please let me buy my Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket right now from the machine over there' (at Paddington there is a row of machines right next to the barriers) and the guy let me do so. I duly bought my anytime Finsbury Park-Paddington ticket there and then and showed it to the guy. He nodded, I put the ticket in my wallet and left the station.
2) From KX, I got to Potters Bar (it didn't go via FP) before changing to a southbound Thameslink service which passed through FP before continuing to Farringdon where I changed to the Elizabeth. Nobody checked me after KX or at any point at Potters Bar or Farringdon until I reached the barrier at Paddington.

Do not admit to boarding further services without a ticket, as you are admitting two further Bylaw offences here on top of the one already committed.

Each time you board a train at a station where there was opportunity to pay you commit a separate and unique offence, at the moment of boarding the train.

Do not give them the explanation you are giving here. Simply apologise for being ticketless - that is, failing to buy a ticket before you boarded - and do not incriminate yourself further. They should settle for the fare due plus an administration fee of about £100, in lieu of taking the matter to the magistrates' court.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

2) From KX, I got to Potters Bar (it didn't go via FP)

I rather think all services from Kings Cross go through Finsbury Park. They may not stop there though.

Haven't you done three journeys without a valid ticket? These would be Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, Kings Cross to Potters Bar and Potters Bar to Paddington via Farringdon.