Notice of Fine & Collection

[CitrusPolos]

Hello,
I'm a long-time reader but first time poster looking for some advice if possible. Back last year I was stopped on a train by a Revenue Protection Officer. The way I pay my rail ticket is by monthly direct debit to network west midlands and you must have a ticket with a photo card.

I left the house in a rush and had my train ticket with me but no photo card. I was stopped by the Inspector and he gave me an un-paid penalty fare notice and advised that I should send a copy of my photo card to the train company to clear the charge. I didn't have any ID so I wrote my nan's address down incorrectly by putting the wrong house number as this was done in a hurry. At this time I was in-between moving house from university.

Months went by and I didn't send the photo card copy as I forgot and I moved house, my grandmother still occupied the house I was living in. Around Christmas time I had two letters sent to me with the wrong address (just the house number incorrect) advising I needed to pay a fine of £10 and then £30 these were dated 3 months ago (as I don't visit my nan regularly). I thought that this must've been dropped as I had heard nothing at all since and considering it was 3/4 months ago i'd have received a follow-up letter.

This week I received a Notice of fine and collection order for £340 for failing to show for a court summons. The summons I never received and again the wrong address is on all the paperwork.

What can I do in this instance? I have no issues with paying the £30 fine but I don't really want to pay the £340. I've heard that I could do a statuary declaration to say I never received the court summons and start the court procedure again, but i'm just really worried at this point as I'm really unsure what to do.

Any advise would be appreciated.

 

[455driver]

Did it occur to you at any stage to inform them of your change of address?

It wont go away simply because you 'forgot' to send off the proof of your photocard!

Did your Nan not inform you thast there was post for you?

Adding everything up it simply sounds to me that you were hoping the stalling tactics and change of address would make this go away!

 

[CitrusPolos]

No it didn't as by the time I actually got the letters through (and that was only by fluke because of the postman) it was too late.

Stupidly I did kinda forget about it and hope it would go away.

 

[bb21]

Pay the £340 and put it down as a lesson learned.

You don't really want them finding out that you put down an address you cannot be contacted at.

 

[6Gman]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the moderators ( ) by posting something that doesn't help the OP why do some people seem to find it so difficult to place a contact address on record?

I also note that the OP pays for his ticket by Direct Debit - which presumably means a bank account - which presumably means a contact address, or does the OP let his bank statements etc go to an address other than his own?

Sadly, perhaps £340 is the cost of such an approach ...

 

[34D]

The summons obviously went to the wrong house.

A stat dec would be the correct thing to do, assuming you really, really did not receive the summons.

 

[DelayRepay]

The summons obviously went to the wrong house.

A stat dec would be the correct thing to do, assuming you really, really did not receive the summons.

But couldn't that lead to the rail company investigating why the summons was not received? If they find the OP gave a false address, wouldn't this get him into more trouble? Isn't it a criminal offence to supply false details to a railway official?

And in any case, even if the original conviction is cancelled, they could still prosecute for fare evasion couldn't they? There is no guarantee that they would accept the £10 or £30 which they originally asked for to resolve the matter.

It does seem odd that you gave your nan's address when:
1) You didn't know what house number she lived at
2) You don't collect post from that house on a regular basis, which suggests that even your nan's correct address would have been inappropriate.

OP - do you know exactly what you have been convicted of?

 

[deltic]

The summons obviously went to the wrong house.

A stat dec would be the correct thing to do, assuming you really, really did not receive the summons.

Would this be appropriate if the summons went to the wrong address because the OP gave the wrong address in the first place?

 

[Greenback]

Would this be appropriate if the summons went to the wrong address because the OP gave the wrong address in the first place?

No, I don't think this would be a good move. They need to accept that they have made a series of mistakes which have led to them being found guilty in a court of law.

A stat dec will only provide an opportunity for further prosecution. It is a pity that, being willing to pay the £30 the OP failed to

- provide the correct address
- respond to any of the letters they received
- inform the company when they moved
- collect, or be forwarded letters regularly from the old address

Doing any of these things would have helped to dispose of this matter sooner.

 

[EC02]

There are 2 options.

1. pay the 340 and let the issue go
2. explain to NR the whole situation and hope they understand and reduce the penalty fare

However, as the 2nd option could lead to court, you may end up paying more than 340. If you explained the situation well and offer 80 for their time wasted I don't think why they would reject your offer. I don't think NR is that unreasonable.

P.S I don't work for any rail related company so my comments are only my thoughts.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The challenge in trying to make a balanced decision between, either, paying the total fee of £340 into Court to conclude the matter, or, making a Statutory Declaration tot he Court and then having the whole matter re-heard isn't just a question of quantum (i.e. the amount of money at stake).
It is also a question of the OP's long-term record.

If, and we don't know for sure, the Court has made a finding of Guilt in a statutory Criminal offence, then we could assume that the OP also a criminal record, which will take some years to expire. This may, or may not, be a factor of concern. It is not likely to have been recorded as a 'County Court Judgement' (CCJ) as an unpaid debt, but probably as a Regulation of Railways Act offence, which is categorised as a crime of dishonesty leading to potential difficulties with travel visas or Criminal Recorts checks.

Only the OP can decide, but for some people, the potential 'gamble' over the £340 cost being reduced or increased in a re-trial might take second place to a concern over a Criminal record.
If the original prosecution was for a Railway Byelaw offence, then I wouldn't expect there to be an entry in the Criminal Records and so this factor doesn't arise - but we just don't know.

I agree that a re-trial exposes the OP to the risk of an accusation of willfully providing a false address and the harsher consequences which might follow if that succeeeded.

2. explain to NR the whole situation and hope they understand and reduce the penalty fare

. . . .

I don't think NR is that unreasonable.

Who are 'NR' ? Did this incident involve Northern Rail or Network Rail?
Anyway, I can't see how 'NR' can reduce the penalty fare at this stage if the Court has already made a determination in favour of whichever Operating Company it was and have issued a payment order against the OP.

 

[455driver]

In a way its a good thing the postie was on the ball and noticed the (accidental because I was in a rush ) wrong address because failure to pay the Court imposed fine could lead to a whole world of hurt in which £340 would be kitty litter!

As BB21 has said, the best advice is to pay the £340 and be more careful in future, maybe stop rushing because you do seem to make rash decisions and 'forget' things when you rush!
Oh and thank the postie for saving your backside!

A lot of people seem to think that defrauding the railways isnt serious and its all a bit of a game really.
Sadly the rules of the game are stacked in the TOCs favour and if they get mucked about they have some very strong cards they can play and the expertise to use them effectively. Play with the big boys by all means but you will have to play by their rules.

If you read your opening post with an open mind you have made lots of errors, conveniently all of those 'errors' were in your favour!
How do you think a Court will look at it if you say you 'accidentally' forgot where you started your journey (not relevant), 'accidentally' gave the wrong house number and 'accidentally' forgot to send in your RailCard (for 2 things, others are available)?
To be brutally honest I dont think it looks very good does it!

By all means try the Statutory Declaration route (have a look what could happen if you are caught making one knowing it to be false ) but think long and hard about the possible outcomes for each scenario before deciding what to do, but what ever you do, make your mind up quite quickly because the other parties wont wait very long!

 

[30907]

How do you think a Court will look at it if you say you 'accidentally' forgot where you started your journey, 'accidentally' gave the wrong house number and 'accidentally' forgot to send in your RailCard (for 3 things, others are available)?

This particular OP - unlike many on this forum - did not do (1).
As to (2) it is quite possible to write down a house number incorrectly and not realise it. Most people rely on visual cues as much as numbers for finding places anyway. An inexact parallel; the two relatives we most often visit live at flats 21 and 22 (in different towns!) and, faced with a keypad, both my wife and I have to think hard which is which.

 

[455driver]

This particular OP - unlike many on this forum - did not do (1).

Yep I see that, thanks for pointing it out, this is the wrong thread, I will edit the other post!

 

[EC02]

Who are 'NR' ? Did this incident involve Northern Rail or Network Rail?

my apologies, as I was reading a different post before this, I automatically thought that this was related to Northen Rail as well.

 

[CitrusPolos]

Thanks for all the advice. I understand this has been a stupid mistake on my part and based on the feedback I've decided the best option would be to pay the £340 fine based on wrong address information.

My main concern now is whether this would be a criminal record situation or not.. I've done some reading and i'm getting mixed messages as to whether a bye-law is prosecution is criminal or civil. Some are saying it's criminal others are saying civil.

The exact wording on the Notice of Fine & Collection Order is:
"1/Fail/refuse to hand over valid ticket not in a designated compulsory ticket area - railway bye-law"

The summons states "Contrary to 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws 2006, made under Section 219 of the Transportation Act 2000 by the Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed under Schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, as amended by Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005."

I'm just concerned about future prospects and travel!

 

[Fare-Cop]

The challenge in trying to make a balanced decision between, either, paying the total fee of £340 into Court to conclude the matter, or, making a Statutory Declaration tot he Court and then having the whole matter re-heard isn't just a question of quantum (i.e. the amount of money at stake).
It is also a question of the OP's long-term record.

If, and we don't know for sure, the Court has made a finding of Guilt in a statutory Criminal offence, then we could assume that the OP also a criminal record, which will take some years to expire. This may, or may not, be a factor of concern. It is not likely to have been recorded as a 'County Court Judgement' (CCJ) as an unpaid debt, but probably as a Regulation of Railways Act offence, which is categorised as a crime of dishonesty leading to potential difficulties with travel visas or Criminal Recorts checks.

Only the OP can decide, but for some people, the potential 'gamble' over the £340 cost being reduced or increased in a re-trial might take second place to a concern over a Criminal record.
If the original prosecution was for a Railway Byelaw offence, then I wouldn't expect there to be an entry in the Criminal Records and so this factor doesn't arise - but we just don't know.

I agree that a re-trial exposes the OP to the risk of an accusation of willfully providing a false address and the harsher consequences which might follow if that succeeeded.
Who are 'NR' ? Did this incident involve Northern Rail or Network Rail?
Anyway, I can't see how 'NR' can reduce the penalty fare at this stage if the Court has already made a determination in favour of whichever Operating Company it was and have issued a payment order against the OP.

I agree wholly with Dave's assessment and as a further point for consideration, looking at the amount being asked in payment I assume that will be the total of fine, compensation and costs.

In a case where the Sect 5.3 RoRA [1889] charge has been laid, the entry level fine is usually in the order of £400 for proof in absence, plus compensation, plus costs in my experience.

This leads me to believe that a total of only £340 suggests this is a charge of breach of Byelaw where the entry level will usually be around £200 if proven in absence. Then adding compensation & costs could easily bring the total up to the figure quoted by the OP.

The key point to this being that if this is the case, the conviction for the Byelaw offence is non-recordable, but if the matter were re-summonsed as it may well be if a statutory declaration is made, the fact that the OP admits writing down incorrect address details in his own hand may ultimately make the consequences much more serious.

The paper received from the collection & compliance centre ought to show what the fine has been imposed for.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This leads me to believe that a total of only £340 suggests this is a charge of breach of Byelaw where the entry level will usually be around £200 if proven in absence. Then adding compensation & costs could easily bring the total up to the figure quoted by the OP.

. . . .

The paper received from the collection & compliance centre ought to show what the fine has been imposed for.

I agree. Thanks for the explication.
I must admit that I hadn't made the leap from the figure of £340 back to an assesment / guess that the OP has been convicted of a Byelaw offence (and not anything more serious). I'm quite sure that you are correct. (If only the OP would come back to clarify the actual offence ! )

The key point to this being that if this is the case, the conviction for the Byelaw offence is non-recordable, but if the matter were re-summonsed as it may well be if a statutory declaration is made, the fact that the OP admits writing down incorrect address details in his own hand may ultimately make the consequences much more serious.

Exactly!

And the upshot of these considerations is to suggest that the OP accepts the figure of £340 as a settlement in full and final settlement.

 

[34D]

Would this be appropriate if the summons went to the wrong address because the OP gave the wrong address in the first place?

A very fair comment. I really think the only suggestion that can be given is to refer this to a solicitor. Trouble is, two hours of advice will be around £340.......

 

[CitrusPolos]

I've posted the offence above Just took some time to get moderator approval.

I think paying the £340 is a given, just need some clarification on how this will affect my record moving forward.

 

[MikeWh]

(If only the OP would come back to clarify the actual offence ! )

And the upshot of these considerations is to suggest that the OP accepts the figure of £340 as a settlement in full and final settlement.

Which thankfully the OP seems to have done if you look at post #16 in this thread.


As a side note, I guess you've fallen victim of one of the few flaws in the forum software where it won't tell you if another post has been made while typing a reply. It then becomes all too easy to miss posts.

 

[island]

Thanks for all the advice. I understand this has been a stupid mistake on my part and based on the feedback I've decided the best option would be to pay the £340 fine based on wrong address information.

My main concern now is whether this would be a criminal record situation or not.. I've done some reading and i'm getting mixed messages as to whether a bye-law is prosecution is criminal or civil. Some are saying it's criminal others are saying civil.

The exact wording on the Notice of Fine & Collection Order is:
"1/Fail/refuse to hand over valid ticket not in a designated compulsory ticket area - railway bye-law"

The summons states "Contrary to 18(2) of the Railway Byelaws 2006, made under Section 219 of the Transportation Act 2000 by the Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed under Schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, as amended by Section 46 of the Railways Act 2005."

I'm just concerned about future prospects and travel!

This is a criminal matter, but is not deemed to be a "recordable" offence. So unless a clerical error is made, it would not appear on a basic disclosure.

It may appear on an enhanced disclosure, depending on various matters of record-keeping and whether it is deemed relevant to the purpose for which the enhanced disclosure is requested.

Whether it affects your entitlement to travel depends broadly on the countries you propose to visit.