Not received anything after being told I'd be issued a fine.

[Punjamin]

I was recently asked to present my 16-25 Railcard when I had left it at home, and was therefore obviously told I'd be fined. As I understood at the time, this would be no problem, as Railcard holders are essentially allowed one misstep like this, provided they can present proof of having had a valid Railcard within 30 days. I've never forgotten my Railcard before, and the ticket inspector (who was very kind about the situation) also assured me that I'd be able to appeal it with no problem. I gave her my address and name, and told that they'd be in contact.
It's now been several weeks and I've received nothing in the post relating to this. My worry is that so much time will pass that I'll either miss the window to appeal, or that the penalty fare will increase.
What course of action should I take? I don't know how often fines get forgotten about, and I don't know if I'd have any recourse if I just left it alone, only for them to come back to me after more than 30 days have passed.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was recently asked to present my 16-25 Railcard when I had left it at home, and was therefore obviously told I'd be fined. As I understood at the time, this would be no problem, as Railcard holders are essentially allowed one misstep like this, provided they can present proof of having had a valid Railcard within 30 days. I've never forgotten my Railcard before, and the ticket inspector (who was very kind about the situation) also assured me that I'd be able to appeal it with no problem. I gave her my address and name, and told that they'd be in contact.
It's now been several weeks and I've received nothing in the post relating to this. My worry is that so much time will pass that I'll either miss the window to appeal, or that the penalty fare will increase.
What course of action should I take? I don't know how often fines get forgotten about, and I don't know if I'd have any recourse if I just left it alone, only for them to come back to me after more than 30 days have passed.

So were you issued with a Penalty Fare? I thought forgotten railcards were usually dealt with by a report but maybe either can happen.

To avoid missing the appeal deadline and 50% prompt payment reduction on a penalty fare I’d probably submit an appeal and enclose a copy of the railcard held with that.

Can you upload a copy of the penalty fare paperwork with your personal details removed. Or any other paperwork you were given?

Which train company was this?

I think a penalty fare appeal has to be submitted within 21 days

 

[AlterEgo]

If you weren't issued with anything at the time, and told you'd get a letter, you have not been Penalty Fared, and have instead been reported for prosecution. This letter can take several weeks to arrive and there is no formal appeal process. The good news is these reports don't usually end in a prosecution if you engage with the company, but the bad news is you'll likely still be on the hook for the Anytime fare plus around £100 in administration fees. However, we can help you write a letter to ask them to waive this, so at the moment it is a case of sitting tight and waiting for the letter to arrive.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you weren't issued with anything at the time, and told you'd get a letter, you have not been Penalty Fared, and have instead been reported for prosecution. This letter can take several weeks to arrive and there is no formal appeal process. The good news is these reports don't usually end in a prosecution if you engage with the company, but the bad news is you'll likely still be on the hook for the Anytime fare plus around £100 in administration fees. However, we can help you write a letter to ask them to waive this, so at the moment it is a case of sitting tight and waiting for the letter to arrive.

The op does not say their railcard was expired, just that they didn’t have it with them AIUI.

If that is correct no new fare or admin fee should be payable. Just a case of proving a railcard was held as per the forgotten railcard policy that the op mentions.

 

[AlterEgo]

The op does not say their railcard was expired, just that they didn’t have it with them AIUI.

I know. It's still standard practice for them to issue a report for prosecution based on this, as the inspector doesn't know if the passenger has a railcard or not. There is also no passenger right to have a report for prosecution dismissed under the "forgotten railcard" rule as there would be for a penalty fare or replacement ticket.

 

[some bloke]

It seems to me that the Railcard FAQ forms a contractual obligation not to prosecute:


"What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?

A: If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens."

FAQs - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare.

Does seem pretty clear if forget railcard (rather than don't have one, or it is expired) then get charged there and then, and not reported for later prosecution.

Perhaps the admin staff knew the rules better than the ticket checker so just closed the file and sent quiet reminder to the inspector

 

[some bloke]

Does seem pretty clear if forget railcard (rather than don't have one, or it is expired) then get charged there and then not reported for later prosecution. Perhaps the admin staff knew the rules better than the ticket checker so just closed the file and sent quiet reminder to the inspector

It seems reasonable to me to report for investigation and possible prosecution, before it's clear whether the person forgot.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think we need more info from the op about what they were issued with on train or if say just name and address taken.

 

[some bloke]

It seems to me that the Railcard FAQ forms a contractual obligation not to prosecute:

And not to charge admin fees.

 

[Haywain]

It seems to me that the Railcard FAQ forms a contractual obligation not to prosecute:


"What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?

A: If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens."

FAQs - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

It's quite a stretch to claim that forms a contractual obligation.

 

[reb0118]

AIUI in situations like these the onus can often be on the person reported to provide proof of entitlement to the reporting company.

 

[John R]

It's quite a stretch to claim that forms a contractual obligation.

However, NRCoT is quite clear that if you are required to pay for a new ticket or are issued a penalty fare then you are entitled to a refund once in any 12 month period (note that it says "will" removing any discretion the TOC might have previous had). I'd suggest that if the action taken was to take the passenger's details without giving them the opportunity to pay for a new ticket or penalty fare and subsequently prosecute then it is acting outside the spirit of the NRCoT, as it would result in a more severe outcome than envisaged.

8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.

8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period

 

[WesternLancer]

I was recently asked to present my 16-25 Railcard when I had left it at home, and was therefore obviously told I'd be fined. As I understood at the time, this would be no problem, as Railcard holders are essentially allowed one misstep like this, provided they can present proof of having had a valid Railcard within 30 days. I've never forgotten my Railcard before, and the ticket inspector (who was very kind about the situation) also assured me that I'd be able to appeal it with no problem. I gave her my address and name, and told that they'd be in contact.
It's now been several weeks and I've received nothing in the post relating to this. My worry is that so much time will pass that I'll either miss the window to appeal, or that the penalty fare will increase.
What course of action should I take? I don't know how often fines get forgotten about, and I don't know if I'd have any recourse if I just left it alone, only for them to come back to me after more than 30 days have passed.

Hi @Punjamin

As you can see there is a certain amount of speculation and clarification going on on the thread now in terms your rights and the way forward.

It would be helpful if you could clarify certain things so people can understand where you are in the process (and which process may have been commenced by the railway...)

so:

- assuming you have an in date valid railcard, and that you just left it at home that day, and that the ticket you had was discounted with the same Railcard applied as stated on the ticket that you actually held

a) were you given a Penalty fare on the Train (a request to pay then or within a period of time a sum of £100 (discounted to £50 if paid promptly) along with the cost of a new ticket? If so you would have been given a Penalty fare paper work detailing how to Appeal etc on the paperwork

b) or was your name and address taken by the member of staff (who then may or may not have given you some paperwork after doing so)?

c) or were you simply told that you would be contacted and have to show that you had a valid Railcard by replying to the contact amend / or uploading a copy of the Railcard to a web page?

d) or were you simply told verbally that you would have to send a copy of your railcard to the train company?

e) which train operator was operating the train or station where this happened? (if you are not sure name the place or journey and it will help us narrow that down)

If you can answer these clearly it would be of help (please use the lettering I have set it out in if possible, but add any other comments to your answers if you think it would be helpful)

That will allow people to give you advice on what your best course of action is now

If you have any paperwork related to this please upload anonymised copies of it if you can do so.

 

[some bloke]

It's quite a stretch to claim that forms a contractual obligation.

It's part of what's sold, since a person may rely on what's said in public about the product as the basis for a decision to purchase.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

If I understand correctly.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's part of what's sold, since a person may rely on what's said in public about the product as the basis for a decision to purchase.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

If I understand correctly.

A civil contract cannot surely include an indemnity from prosecution for criminal offences.

 

[some bloke]

A civil contract cannot surely include an indemnity from prosecution for criminal offences.

Wouldn't it be the same as what an an out-of-court settlement agrees?

 

[AlterEgo]

Wouldn't it be the same as what an an out-of-court settlement agrees?

That is not part of a contract offered at the time of sale though. But I do see your logic!

 

[Punjamin]

I think we need more info from the op about what they were issued with on train or if say just name and address taken.

The latter. I just gave my details and was told they'd be in touch by mail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

Hi @Punjamin

As you can see there is a certain amount of speculation and clarification going on on the thread now in terms your rights and the way forward.

It would be helpful if you could clarify certain things so people can understand where you are in the process (and which process may have been commenced by the railway...)

so:

- assuming you have an in date valid railcard, and that you just left it at home that day, and that the ticket you had was discounted with the same Railcard applied as stated on the ticket that you actually held

a) were you given a Penalty fare on the Train (a request to pay then or within a period of time a sum of £100 (discounted to £50 if paid promptly) along with the cost of a new ticket? If so you would have been given a Penalty fare paper work detailing how to Appeal etc on the paperwork

b) or was your name and address taken by the member of staff (who then may or may not have given you some paperwork after doing so)?

c) or were you simply told that you would be contacted and have to show that you had a valid Railcard by replying to the contact amend / or uploading a copy of the Railcard to a web page?

d) or were you simply told verbally that you would have to send a copy of your railcard to the train company?

e) which train operator was operating the train or station where this happened? (if you are not sure name the place or journey and it will help us narrow that down)

If you can answer these clearly it would be of help (please use the lettering I have set it out in if possible, but add any other comments to your answers if you think it would be helpful)

That will allow people to give you advice on what your best course of action is now

If you have any paperwork related to this please upload anonymised copies of it if you can do so.

I'll try to be as clear as possible. It's been made apparent to me that I don't fully understand the procedures and terminology.

a) I didn't receive anything. If I had, I would have been able to start the "appeal" process by presenting my valid Railcard.

b) My name and address were taken.

c) I was told they'd be in touch, and she agreed with me when I brought up the notion of presenting my Railcard at a later date, though she gave no specifics.

d) I suppose that's most accurate.

e) I was on LNER, IIRC. That was where I got the information about this concept. (https://www.lner.co.uk/support/tickets-booking-faq/railcards/forgot-to-carry-my-railcard/)

 

[WesternLancer]

The latter. I just gave my details and was told they'd be in touch by mail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==


I'll try to be as clear as possible. It's been made apparent to me that I don't fully understand the procedures and terminology.

a) I didn't receive anything. If I had, I would have been able to start the "appeal" process by presenting my valid Railcard.

b) My name and address were taken.

c) I was told they'd be in touch, and she agreed with me when I brought up the notion of presenting my Railcard at a later date, though she gave no specifics.

d) I suppose that's most accurate.

e) I was on LNER, IIRC. That was where I got the information about this concept. (https://www.lner.co.uk/support/tickets-booking-faq/railcards/forgot-to-carry-my-railcard/)

Ok thanks.

So you have not paid any money and were not asked to buy a new ticket?

And you gave a correct postal address? Which hopefully they noted down correctly.

All you can do is wait to hear from them (Lner that is)

But I suppose it’s possible the staff member didn’t bother to report the incident.