(Not Quite) My idea - Sleeper pod trains !

[gordonthemoron]

Dunno why the DB Talgo couchettes didn't catch on as they were longitudinal in an open coach

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dunno why the DB Talgo couchettes didn't catch on as they were longitudinal in an open coach

Asian countries seem to favour those. Best night's kip I've ever had on a train. I also slept vaguely OK on the Megabus sleeper bus which was near enough the same if a little claustrophobic. The blood to head/feet thing keeps me awake with transverse mounted beds - I even slept better on a 5' by 2' shelf in Indian sleeper class because that was longitudinal than I do on CS!

The trouble with those and CS is that they have the same problem as the pods - there is a reversal, so you could end up sleeping head to direction of travel and breaking your neck in an accident. DB used to use them on Hamburg-Muenchen which doesn't have a reversal.

This means they could possibly be used on the Riviera but not the CS, unless a way could be found to avoid the reversals on the Highlander - am I being thick, or would running up the ECML be the only way to achieve this?

 

[MarkyT]

It was a safety issue relating to the pods being oriented like seats, and the risk of a broken neck if sleeping with the head towards the direction of travel in an accident, I believe. (With the Sleepers reversing during the journey, having rotatable pods and ensuring everyone was the right way round wouldn't work).

Are there any examples of this kind of injury occurring in the long history of sleeper trains where longitudinal beds are common, in the US and in China today for example? In such cases, are people forced to sleep feet forward and are they then all woken up to turn round in the early hours if the train reverses in the night? I suggest some soft cushioning and perhaps some 'crumpleability' might be incorporated in the panelling at both ends of each bunk to help mitigate the risk. The pods would have to be side access both for safety and to maximize density, rather than the end entry typical of Asian hotel and work environment rest pods.

 

[Chester1]

This effectively sounds like double the capacity of the sleepers. If so, the average fare would have to be more than half the CS average fare to enable a subsidy reduction, otherwise there would be no point. This puts it in the £100+ range; which given the comfort level I think wouldn’t be worth the cash. My opinion of course.

Personally id pay £100 one way for an airline business class style seat / bed if the alternative was £170 for sole occupancy of a compartment. On a return journey its a saving of £140 but without having to try to sleep upright to save a further £110.

They might work as a cheap option for additional coaches if the Night Rivera receives continued subsidy but no new stock. By the end of the Caledonian Sleeper franchise the day services should be considerably faster. The lowland sleeper could be cut back to 12 coaches doing Kings Cross-Edinburgh-Glasgow without needing to split or join. That would free up 8 sleeper coaches for the Night Rivera which could be complemented by 12 Mark 5a coaches converted into pod, seating and lounge cars. Perhaps 2 pod cars per set + a spare? They would suit the Night Rivera more than the Caledonian Sleeper.

 

[GrimShady]

Interestingly those pods pictured don't appear to fully recline, unless I'm being thick.

Correct, they do not fully recline. A source of many complaints on Hjaltland & Hrossey.

 

[bastien]

Asian countries seem to favour those. Best night's kip I've ever had on a train. I also slept vaguely OK on the Megabus sleeper bus which was near enough the same if a little claustrophobic. The blood to head/feet thing keeps me awake with transverse mounted beds - I even slept better on a 5' by 2' shelf in Indian sleeper class because that was longitudinal than I do on CS!

The trouble with those and CS is that they have the same problem as the pods - there is a reversal, so you could end up sleeping head to direction of travel and breaking your neck in an accident. DB used to use them on Hamburg-Muenchen which doesn't have a reversal.

This means they could possibly be used on the Riviera but not the CS, unless a way could be found to avoid the reversals on the Highlander - am I being thick, or would running up the ECML be the only way to achieve this?

I've been on those longitudinal 2nd class sleepers in Thailand etc. and I'm pretty sure people sleep whichever way around they like. Mind you the chances of those trains reaching breakneck speeds are slim!

It's a pity really, I think a compartment with the bunks running lengthwise along the corridor wall would be a winner. You would have space for a proper width MK3 window (probably another safety no-no) with a folding table underneath... Pencil and graphpaper diagram available on request

 

[Indigo Soup]

I've been on those longitudinal 2nd class sleepers in Thailand etc. and I'm pretty sure people sleep whichever way around they like. Mind you the chances of those trains reaching breakneck speeds are slim!

Longitudinal berths are the norm in the US, and have been since George Pullman came up with the sleeping car. Given their views on lawsuits, it would be interesting to know if they have any requirement for people to sleep facing a particular direction.

It's a pity really, I think a compartment with the bunks running lengthwise along the corridor wall would be a winner. You would have space for a proper width MK3 window (probably another safety no-no) with a folding table underneath... Pencil and graphpaper diagram available on request

Realistically you're talking about 32-36 bunks per car, pretty much the same as a transverse couchette. You'd be able to do slightly wider bunks, though, which might be seen as a benefit. That's based on an open layout with berths down both sides, mind. If you're after private compartments with a side corridor, you're into Royal Scotsman territory and probably a maximum of six (realistically four or five) compartments per carriage.

 

[bastien]

Longitudinal berths are the norm in the US, and have been since George Pullman came up with the sleeping car. Given their views on lawsuits, it would be interesting to know if they have any requirement for people to sleep facing a particular direction.

Realistically you're talking about 32-36 bunks per car, pretty much the same as a transverse couchette. You'd be able to do slightly wider bunks, though, which might be seen as a benefit. That's based on an open layout with berths down both sides, mind. If you're after private compartments with a side corridor, you're into Royal Scotsman territory and probably a maximum of six (realistically four or five) compartments per carriage.

The 'Caledonian Double' berths fit those kind of dimensions and go for £400 a pop.

Incidentally, I take it everyone's seen the Nightjet mock-ups? Very interesting stuff. https://www.priestmangoode.com/project/new-intercity-and-nightjet/

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been on those longitudinal 2nd class sleepers in Thailand etc. and I'm pretty sure people sleep whichever way around they like. Mind you the chances of those trains reaching breakneck speeds are slim!

Thailand doesn't do H&S, that's enough, really. When hanging out of the door at speed is permitted, you don't need any other safety rules.

 

[bastien]

Thailand doesn't do H&S, that's enough, really. When hanging out of the door at speed is permitted, you don't need any other safety rules.

Although SRT did ban alcohol for 'safety reasons'. Very strange organisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although SRT did ban alcohol for 'safety reasons'. Very strange organisation.

That's another classic Thai thing - they are very good at knee-jerk reactions because "something must be done", and very rarely are those things a proper solution to the problem. I believe that ban resulted from a case of a male member of staff getting a female passenger drunk and then raping and murdering her

 

[edwin_m]

If you're going to hang out of the door it's probably safer not to have any alcohol first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're going to hang out of the door it's probably safer not to have any alcohol first.

I was offered alcohol for sale while hanging out of the door. (This was in about 2005).

 

[bastien]

I was offered alcohol for sale while hanging out of the door. (This was in about 2005).

That's one of the things I love - the fact that anyone seems to be allowed to sell any food or drink, anywhere. I'm sure there's an element of protection or back-handers for pitches going on but it's such a contrast to here. But pretty sure I'd be arrested if I tried to sell some cans out of a bucket on a train in the UK.

 

[GrimShady]

The Nightjet pods look marvelous!

Why couldn't we have had that here?

 

[Rick1984]

This would have been great on Cally Sleeper. Basically posh cochettes

 

[yorksrob]

This would have been great on Cally Sleeper. Basically posh cochettes

They're sort of in the right direction, but why not just build a partition between them, and between the upper and lower floors for privacy.

 

[bastien]

They're sort of in the right direction, but why not just build a partition between them, and between the upper and lower floors for privacy.

There's a 3d thing on this page: https://www.nightjet.com/en/ausstattung/nightjetzukunft.html

The front of the pod has a sort of roller door, so it should be private!
Shame we didn't get something like this on the Caledonian, I get the feeling they ordered 'exactly what we have now but with ensuites'.

 

[yorksrob]

There's a 3d thing on this page: https://www.nightjet.com/en/ausstattung/nightjetzukunft.html

The front of the pod has a sort of roller door, so it should be private!
Shame we didn't get something like this on the Caledonian, I get the feeling they ordered 'exactly what we have now but with ensuites'.

That's interesting. The roller door idea could definitely work. I'd definitely be up for using such a carriage as a 'travelling hotel'.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do these roller doors lock?

Are they lightproof or does a load of light leak in around the edges?

 

[MarkyT]

Do these roller doors lock?
Are they lightproof or does a load of light leak in around the edges?

I would have thought the production version must incorporate a passenger lock inside, probably with a staff key override from outside. Without locks, safety and privacy cannot be assured. In one of the 3D views, one of the doors is partially shut. It looks fairly solid, but there's no obvious locking mechanism visible. Perhaps it will be electronic using a keycard or something similar. These couchette pods look very attractive and well thought out. The upper pods seem to have more luggage stowage space than the lower ones, something that might be solved by a lockable under-bed cabinet at floor level. A swing out device stand arm would also be useful for watching a film on a tablet in a the recumbent position.

 

[yorksrob]

Those are brilliant.

I know we have a somewhat restrictive loading guage, but it must be possible to come up with a slightly more compact version for the UK network !

 

[mildertduck]

I was visualising something more like this; I suspect the only issue being the narrow corridor which you'd have on a train would make making the beds difficult.

 

[yorksrob]

I was visualising something more like this; I suspect the only issue being the narrow corridor which you'd have on a train would make making the beds difficult.

That was my initial thought.

I suppose that with the nightjet design, there are recesses between the pod ends that would give people in the corridor a lot more room to manouvre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This of course is a concept design - like concept cars it doesn't always make it into production as originally proposed!

 

[MarkyT]

That was my initial thought.

I suppose that with the nightjet design, there are recesses between the pod ends that would give people in the corridor a lot more room to manouvre.

The upright panel at the back of the recess integrates a ladder and shoe lockers between the rungs, so people slowly climbing and faffing about with luggage, foot-ware etc shouldn't block the main corridor to any great extent. The partial side access to the bed is also much more convenient and dignified than wriggling in all the way from one end. The recess design allows maximum width at the important head end and a central 'service pillar' easily reachable from the recumbent position and integrating controls for lighting and climate and some shelf space to stow small valuables. There's a cup holder, and electrical outlets in there as well. The large sliding shutter can also be left open in daylight and affords a view from the recumbent position, at least from the lower berths, and allows daylight to enter via the corridor windows. Mirrors assist in the reflection of views and the spread of light throughout the space. The mirrors at the corridor end also provide a bit of a security function as when the shutters are open from the corridor you can quickly see right to the back of the pod before climbing in. When a passenger leaves the pod for a short period (relief or refreshment), the design needs to allow them to securely close and lock the main shutter from the outside to protect their possessions left inside. A hotel style keycard system might be a way to achieve this. One thing I'd add is a small adjustable table on a folding arm capable of supporting a laptop or standing a tablet or phone. It would be stowed away by folding it back against a wall or up to the ceiling. Otherwise excellent design and I love it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was visualising something more like this; I suspect the only issue being the narrow corridor which you'd have on a train would make making the beds difficult.

You’d need to be a contortionist to get in these if they had a corridor the width of those found on U.K. sleepers!

 

[MarkyT]

I wonder if Nightjet might also try an economy triple stack version. I travelled in six berth couchette compartments back in the 1970s and 80s. ISTR I often couldn't really sit up properly in bed except on the top bunk, but that seemed an acceptable trade-off for the low price.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Which thin tube? The only long-haul airliner I can think of that had as little space as a train is Concorde. Nobody would ever try putting business class seating of that kind on a 2+2 seated short-haul airliner.

Concorde also had very limited headroom and curved walls. The dimensions of a train are able to support sleeper seat recliners in a 2+1 configuration, like many business class airline cabins.

Have a look at the train in China, via Man in Seat 61

 

[Indigo Soup]

Have a look at the train in China, via Man in Seat 61

Now make that train a foot narrower to comply with the British loading gauge. You won't get 2+1 seating with those kinds of seat.