Not PC on LM

[PaxVobiscum]

http://news.sky.com/story/1228638/train-announcer-warns-of-gypsies-and-thieves

An investigation has been launched after a train announcer told passengers to "be aware of pickpockets and Gypsies" before disembarking at a station.

London Midland said it was looking into the warning, which was made over the train's speaker system as it pulled into Telford Central in Telford, Shropshire.

Recorded by a passenger on his mobile phone, the announcement was met with loud cheers and laughter from people travelling on the train, including a number of fans of football club Wolverhampton Wanderers, last Saturday.

As the train pulls up at the station in Shropshire the announcement can be heard over the train's public address system: "Telford Central - please be aware of pickpockets and Gypsies".

A "staff development need" identified or perhaps worse?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Probably just an ill advised joke. Passengers seem to react well to "cheeky" announcements (in fact there is a thread dedicated to them on this very forum) but sometimes they cross the line.

Mind you, I've been to Telford and... [deleted on legal advice]

 

[Gemz91]

Read this elsewhere. Unbelievable that in this day of age someone can think they can use such slander against a group of people and get away with it. We're no longer living in the 1960's. Not even an ill advised joke, just pure prejudiced (and I'm not talking about the pickpockets bit).

 

[overtonchris]

I don't think that's funny at all. Substitute 'Gypsies' with 'Blacks' or 'Jews'......welcome to the 1930s......Pathetic.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The "pickpockets" bit would have been enough of a cheeky joke.

The juxtaposition of the other word (which is not always deemed offensive in itself - as in the title of a well-known tv programme about weddings etc.) was at best ill judged and incredibly insensitive.

What an idiot.

 

[Sleepy]

If you knew how many people in that category I detained for theft in a previous life you may be surprised, having said that it was a some what foolish thing to say over PA given how PC most TOC wish to appear!

 

[GatwickDepress]

You've said all I wanted to say, PaxVobiscum, and more eloquently than I!

It's an absolutely idiotic thing for anybody to say, let alone over a public address system in a train full of strangers.

 

[andypops]

I'll go out on a limb and say that actually I don't think there is a problem here. It wasn't aimed at an individual person (and it's unlikely that he was aiming the comment at any passing travelling people), so IMO isn't grossly offensive because there is no malice in what was said. It's no different to when conductors of a certain national identity on a certain cross-border franchise mention "We are back in England now" followed by a certain remark about rugby / prescription charges / plastic bag taxes. It happens, and the vast majority of people accept it as gentle humour. Look at the reaction of 99% of the people on the train in question.

At very worst it was a poor idea. But on balance, the remark kept a train full of potentially difficult passengers on-side, so was it really such a bad idea to try to use humour to reduce any tension which may have been present, especially when at the start of the video there are lots of police outside the train? Context is key.

It only becomes a big issue when it's publicised all over national media, and people start to jump on the bandwagon. Many single events which every one of us do would look bad when taken in isolation, but when you look at the bigger picture it may well have been (at least partially) justified.


I will now retire to a safe distance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Video available on the Shropshire Star website

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...-telford-gipsies-and-pickpockets-announcment/

 

[Greenback]

It wasn't aimed at an individual person

No, it was aimed at a group of people which makes it much worse.

At very worst it was a poor idea.

At the very best I would say it was a poor idea. And I think I'm being generous.

But on balance, the remark kept a train full of potentially difficult passengers on-side, so was it really such a bad idea to try to use humour to reduce any tension which may have been present, especially when at the start of the video there are lots of police outside the train? Context is key.

As has been said, humour could have been used without this particular reference.

It only becomes a big issue when it's publicised all over national media, and people start to jump on the bandwagon. Many single events which every one of us do would look bad when taken in isolation, but when you look at the bigger picture it may well have been (at least partially) justified.

Referring to any group in this way is simply not acceptable in a mdoern non judgemental society, whether they be called 'fatties', 'gingers' or anything else. As such it cannot be even partially justified.

 

[LBSCR Times]

These days you have to be very careful what you say in public.
Saying behind closed doors is one thing, but in the open is different.

 

[Greenback]

I hate the term political correctness. It implies so much that isn't actually true.

I'd like to know what is so wrong with aspiring to eliminate the demonisation of particular groups, whether it be Gypsies, Jews or Irish (off the top of my head examples).

Do we really want to return to earlier times, or do we want to try and be more respectful and tolerant to each other? I want the latter rather than go backl to childish name calling and stereotyping, but perhaps I am in the minority.

 

[thenorthern]

Not a good thing to mention over a PA system on a train.

Don't get why though someone would mention Gypsys and Telford, they are not something I would associate with each other.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I hate the term political correctness. It implies so much that isn't actually true.

Thank you. Like 'Health and Safety gone mad', it seems to have become a rallying call for Middle England who seem to have visions of returning to a perfect age that never existed.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If you knew how many people in that category I detained for theft in a previous life you may be surprised, having said that it was a some what foolish thing to say over PA given how PC most TOC wish to appear!

You could equally say the same thing for certain other groups in society (as people did in the 1980s and earlier when making similar sorts of excuses), but that doesn't make it alright, for numerous reasons.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you. Like 'Health and Safety gone mad', it seems to have become a rallying call for Middle England who seem to have visions of returning to a perfect age that never existed.

A perfect age where they can discriminate without being challenged, can send the proles off to work without worrying about their safety and can generally behave like thoroughly unpleasant human beings with those pesky people not exactly like them getting in the way...

 

[meridian2]

Read this elsewhere. Unbelievable that in this day of age someone can think they can use such slander against a group of people and get away with it. We're no longer living in the 1960's. Not even an ill advised joke, just pure prejudiced (and I'm not talking about the pickpockets bit).

You don't know that for a fact; there's probably another side to this story, and even if it was slander, 'gypsy' is not, and never has been, derogatory. And to those who dislike the term 'political correctness', maybe you need to focus your exasperation/frustrations on WHY such a term was invented, (the background reasons for it), not those who try use it to explain why something that wasn't offensive yesteryear now suddenly is. It's not some sort of ex post facto way of justifying the use of a now-offensive phrase or word, rather trying to fathom why it's context or meaning has suddenly become offensive. Maybe 'political correctness' is something of a misnomer, or used to intensify a debate. Either way, Greenback's sophistry misses the point.

 

[LBSCR Times]

The only people in society you can be derogatory about are white, English, middle aged men.
Anyone else and it is a no-no.

 

[cuccir]

It's no different to when conductors of a certain national identity on a certain cross-border franchise mention "We are back in England now" followed by a certain remark about rugby / prescription charges / plastic bag taxes. It happens, and the vast majority of people accept it as gentle hunour. Look at the reaction of 99% of the people on the train in question.

This argument particularly annoys me when I hear it. It's very different. Scottish, English and Welsh people don't face racially motivated attacks within the EU in more than one country. English, Scottish and Welsh people weren't - on the grounds of their race - subject to repression under fascism and communism in the Twentieth Century. Thankfully, Roma/Gypsy people don't face this in the UK to anywhere near this extent, but we're not miles away from this. English, Scottish and Welsh people share a long, common history and therefore a series of shared and subtle cultural meanings along which we can make jokes. The Gypsy/Roma community doesn't really have that with the rest of the UK

In other words - in linguistic content and semantics, it's not different. In context and wider meaning, they're miles apart.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The only people in society you can be derogatory about are white, English, middle aged men.
Anyone else and it is a no-no.

Please list me a series of slurs in the media made against white English middle aged men (as a group)?

 

[HowardGWR]

Please list me a series of slurs in the media made against white English middle aged men (as a group)?

Victor Meldrews?

 

[GatwickDepress]

The only people in society you can be derogatory about are white, English, middle aged men.
Anyone else and it is a no-no.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Probably just an ill advised joke. Passengers seem to react well to "cheeky" announcements (in fact there is a thread dedicated to them on this very forum) but sometimes they cross the line.

Mind you, I've been to Telford and... [deleted on legal advice]

Imagine the announcement was "be aware of pickpockets and black people" (optionally substitute a certain 6-letter word). Is there still any possibility of it being "just an ill advised joke"? Would that just be a '"cheeky" [announcement]' that has "[crossed] the line"?

If you knew how many people in that category I detained for theft in a previous life you may be surprised, having said that it was a some what foolish thing to say over PA given how PC most TOC wish to appear!

How about " If you knew how many black people I detained for theft in a previous life you may be surprised"?
I am shocked and enraged that you have ever been in a position of authority.

 

[cuccir]

Victor Meldrews?

I'd agree that that's an ageist slur, although against those post-retirement rather than middle aged. Indeed, I'd agree with the claim that we allow too many insulting descriptions/images of the elderly to circulate in society. (Although the character himself is quite a sympathetic comedy character).

 

[Greenback]

You don't know that for a fact; there's probably another side to this story, and even if it was slander, 'gypsy' is not, and never has been, derogatory. And to those who dislike the term 'political correctness', maybe you need to focus your exasperation/frustrations on WHY such a term was invented, (the background reasons for it), not those who try use it to explain why something that wasn't offensive yesteryear now suddenly is. It's not some sort of ex post facto way of justifying the use of a now-offensive phrase or word, rather trying to fathom why it's context or meaning has suddenly become offensive. Maybe 'political correctness' is something of a misnomer, or used to intensify a debate. Either way, Greenback's sophistry misses the point.

I don't think it does. Many phrases are created by those who are against something, maybe they even had a point originally. However the term PC has grown beyond its original use to describe just about anything that doesn't fit a particular viewpoint.

Let's not miss the real point that I was trying to underline. Is it acceptable to demonise, either directly or by implication, a particular group, whethe rit is in a humourous way or not? And saying 'beware of gypsies' certainly does that to my mind.

As I said, I believe it is perfectly correct, in all senses of the word, to eradicate things like this if we want a modern, tolerant society free of prejudice and stereotypes. If there is a rational or logical argument as why we should not do this, I'd love to hear it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd agree that that's an ageist slur, although against those post-retirement rather than middle aged. Indeed, I'd agree with the claim that we allow too many insulting descriptions/images of the elderly to circulate in society. (Although the character himself is quite a sympathetic comedy character).

Agreed.

 

[PermitToTravel]

A "staff development need" identified or perhaps worse?

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

 

[Greenback]

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

I think that is going too far for a one off offence. A warning and retraining is more appropriate. If ther eis a history of inappropriate behviour like this however, it could well be the final straw.

 

[Minilad]

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

Over reaction much ?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

You'd really want to ruin a man's life (and that of his family) because of that?

It's clearly unacceptable behaviour, the guard will get a bollocking if he hasn't already had one and he may be in for some retraining. In a civilised society it is not a sackable offence though.

 

[ECML180]

Is there still any possibility of it being "just an ill advised joke"?

Of course it's an ill-advised joke, no-one in their right mind would decide that the train PA system was the best forum with which to air their offensive views. It's very unlikely the person in question set out to offend, it was a bad judgement which ended up offending people.

I hope he is fired, and prosecuted. I'd also like for his name to be published, to obviate the risk of him ever getting another job that involves dealing with people.

Someone made a mistake, may as well deal with it proportionately. I'm sure the person is question is now well aware of their actions and the reaction, unless this is a regular issue with that employee I'm sure all that's required is a quiet word.

 

[LateThanNever]

How about " If you knew how many black people I detained for theft in a previous life you may be surprised"?
I am shocked and enraged that you have ever been in a position of authority.

And, oh dear, if it's the truth why should you be shocked or enraged?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Your responses just highlight how it's socially acceptable to discriminate against some ethnic groups but not others.

 

[Smudger105e]

Fahad, I think you are in danger of making it clear to everyone that you have very strange views on things, you really think someone should be sacked for this? And as for prosecute the guy, for what? Section 5 Public Order? Racism? He said watch out for Gypsies. How is that racist? He did not saythat Gypsies are pickpockets (although I accept there was that inference) but I certainly believe that although the announcement was probably an ill judged attempt at humour, it was not a criminal act nor was it gross misconduct.