Not moving from clearly marked reserved seat when requested by reservation holder

[al78]

I believe the time honoured tradition is to threaten to sit on the ignorant sod's lap...

Hmm, well you could do if you don't mind the risk of having to pick your teeth off the floor.

The overall issue is you can't control other people, so if someone really refuses to move, there is a damned thing you can do about it. I would think it unlikely that the guard is going to call BTP and stop the train just to remove the perpetrator from a reserved seat if they refuse absolutely to move.

The other problem is that battering dick heads is against the law, if it wasn't and this regularly happened, over time, we'd have less dickish behaviour, since the consequences of being a dick head would significantly outweigh the benefits.

 

[theironroad]

SWT got rid of seat reservations on all trains a few years back and probably one of the best things that happened. Conflicts over seat reservations were one of the most contentious issues around and caused a lot of grief for passengers and staff alike. Advance tickets have a named train time but no actual seat.

 

[jon0844]

SWT got rid of seat reservations on all trains a few years back and probably one of the best things that happened. Conflicts over seat reservations were one of the most contentious issues around and caused a lot of grief for passengers and staff alike. Advance tickets have a named train time but no actual seat.

Obviously preparing for all the new rolling stock where there are actually no seats.

 

[maire23]

I had a huge issue with a seat reservation on Saturday- VTEC train, PBO-KGX. Being a wheelchair user I had booked the wheelchair space some time previously and because my wheelchair is an odd shape I have to book on certain trains.
As my assisting member of staff helped me on at PBO I heard protests- it became obvious that the vestibule was full.
And there was a wheelchair in my space. Turns out that the previous train was cancelled and as I pointed out I had a reservation the woman retorted 'so have I!' Yes- on the previous train.
Being in first class I managed to squeeze my chair in but the woman's husband began kicking off because I was in his space. 'I want a refund!' He was shouting- and I mean shouting (and these were senior citizens) I had to endure the whole journey getting filthy looks from the woman opposite and mutterings of 'She doesn't need the wheelchair anyway she's too young to be disabled'
By the time I got off I had enough and I blew my top (my partner took the brunt of it- don't worry, I never ever abuse staff- not worth the risk of getting arrested) the TM was fawning over this old couple and couldn't care less my wheelchair was sliding all over the place because it wasn't adequately secured as it would be if it were in its proper space!
In this case who had the priority? I realise that in a case like this it's difficult but if it ever happens again I would like to know what the protocol would be....

 

[DarloRich]

The overall issue is you can't control other people, so if someone really refuses to move, there is a damned thing you can do about it. I would think it unlikely that the guard is going to call BTP and stop the train just to remove the perpetrator from a reserved seat if they refuse absolutely to move.

Sadly this.

Adopting the Nigely voice and quoting byelaws will just lead to you being laughed at. You are relying on people being decent and sadly some aren't.

The guard could call the BTP (But I doubt it is worth the time to do so) but they are not going to come and sort this sillyness out. They do a great job but simply haven't the time or resources to devote to sorting this kind of thing out.

I f a person cant be shamed into moving then give it up and look for somewhere else to sit, annoying and wrong as that is. It isnt worth a slap.

The passenger failing to move would appear to be in contravention of the railway bye laws:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

People here think the byelaws are some magical panacea. How, practically, are you going to seek enforcement?

 

[6Gman]

SWT got rid of seat reservations on all trains a few years back and probably one of the best things that happened. Conflicts over seat reservations were one of the most contentious issues around and caused a lot of grief for passengers and staff alike. Advance tickets have a named train time but no actual seat.

So if I'm taking my elderly mother from Waterloo to Bournemouth I should just hope she can get a seat?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Goodness knows why Virgin repeatedly book people without impairments in disabled seats.

They aren't "disabled seats". They are priority seats. There are a number of different reasons why you might use them, for example I reserve them because I am tall and other Pendolino seats are too tight (particularly as I have already had DVT and don't want it again). I'd move if someone genuinely needed it more than me (as with any seat, reserved or otherwise) but as I go for window this is very unlikely (I think it's happened once), the aisle would go first, and a carer does not have a right to those seats over anyone else.

I do agree they should not be allocated unless specifically requested.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

So if I'm taking my elderly mother from Waterloo to Bournemouth I should just hope she can get a seat?

I like London Midland's solution of publishing busy trains. If journey-planners could show that data, better still.

 

[Hartington]

"People here think the byelaws are some magical panacea. How, practically, are you going to seek enforcement? "

Not a magical panacea but what's the point of bye laws if they cannot be enforced?

 

[jon0844]

So many things aren't enforced these days, which effectively gives clear permission to break the rules.

And with various cuts or general demotivation amongst those in authority, what incentive is there to enforce things and get all the grief - including the sudden sympathy for those who are don't comply, suggesting that if you punish them then it will somehow affect their career or whatever.

I don't really understand how we allowed ourselves to get like this. Many countries are still able to take positive action and get supported by people who appreciate that it benefits everyone.

(Rant over!)

 

[Scotrail84]

If folk had to pay for reserved seats they wouldn't be so quick to sit elsewhere plus it would mean they would probably catch their booked train 9 times out of 10.

In Germany it costs €4 per seat that you reserve so a rtn journey is €8 for two seats or €16 for four of you etc.

 

[Senex]

So many things aren't enforced these days, which effectively gives clear permission to break the rules.

And with various cuts or general demotivation amongst those in authority, what incentive is there to enforce things and get all the grief - including the sudden sympathy for those who are don't comply, suggesting that if you punish them then it will somehow affect their career or whatever.

I don't really understand how we allowed ourselves to get like this. Many countries are still able to take positive action and get supported by people who appreciate that it benefits everyone.

(Rant over!)

A wholly justified rant, in my opinion — and very much to the point!

 

[trainophile]

If folk had to pay for reserved seats they wouldn't be so quick to sit elsewhere plus it would mean they would probably catch their booked train 9 times out of 10.

In Germany it costs €4 per seat that you reserve so a rtn journey is €8 for two seats or €16 for four of you etc.

Presumably there are unreservable seats for walk-up passengers?

At prices like the £ equivalent of the €s you state, I can't see many Brits voluntarily paying, unless they are on company expenses. So on a busy train the younger laptop brigade would sit while the pensioners take their chance!

 

[DarloRich]

So many things aren't enforced these days, which effectively gives clear permission to break the rules.

And with various cuts or general demotivation amongst those in authority, what incentive is there to enforce things and get all the grief - including the sudden sympathy for those who are don't comply, suggesting that if you punish them then it will somehow affect their career or whatever.

I don't really understand how we allowed ourselves to get like this. Many countries are still able to take positive action and get supported by people who appreciate that it benefits everyone.

(Rant over!)

A wholly justified rant, in my opinion — and very much to the point!

"People here think the byelaws are some magical panacea. How, practically, are you going to seek enforcement? "

Not a magical panacea but what's the point of bye laws if they cannot be enforced?

8 out of 10 people will move when asked, 1 will move after huffing and puffing. What practically are you going to do about the 1 in 10 who wont move?

Are you suggesting physically dragging someone out of a seat? I cant see any way in which that will go wrong! Will the guard bother to call the BTP over a minor thing like this? Will they bother to attend and arrest someone? Surely, they have bigger fish to fry.

Practicality is all important. Sadly you are reliant on the decency of people. Most are decent. A few are not. That isnt right but is the way of the world.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

8 out of 10 people will move when asked, 1 will move after huffing and puffing. What practically are you going to do about the 1 in 10 who wont move?

Are you suggesting physically dragging someone out of a seat? I cant see any way in which that will go wrong! Will the guard bother to call the BTP over a minor thing like this? Will they bother to attend and arrest someone? Surely, they have bigger fish to fry.

Practicality is all important. Sadly you are reliant on the decency of people. Most are decent. A few are not. That isnt right but is the way of the world.

If you think getting someone to move out of your reserved seat is difficult, try persuading people to move from the cycle space you've reserved on a TPE 185! Thanks to the ridiculous layout of having 4 tip down seats in the cycle space, some prat will always sit there, even when there are other seats avaiable!

 

[londonbridge]

I had a bit of a weird situation at the end of last year, with regards to seat reservations. I was travelling from Birmingham New Street to Euston after visiting the Christmas market in Birmingham city centre. I took my reserved seat in coach E (I always reserve seat 17 in coach E on Pendolinos when travelling southbound in standard), and nothing out of the ordinary at this point. At Coventry, a couple board and walk over to where I am sitting.
"Excuse me, you're sitting in my seat", the man says to me.
"Sorry, but I have reserved this seat", I reply, showing my ticket and seat reservation.
The man simply repeats the same line as before, and his partner then starts saying about how they reserved the particular seats themselves. They showed me their tickets, but I couldn't see their reservation details (they were Print-At-Home tickets, so I possibly just didn't spot them). I showed them my ticket and reservation again to reiterate that I had reserved this seat from Birmingham New Street to Euston, but they weren't accepting this. Rather than cause a major scene, as people were starting to look in our direction, I just relented and let them have the seat, but left with the parting comment "Looks like the system has double-booked the seat or something". I moved down into coach F, which was actually fairly empty compared to E, so it wasn't so bad that I moved.

I understand that, as I had a reservation for the seat, I was under no obligation to move, but sometimes it's better just to let things go rather than potentially cause issues.

Slightly off-topic from the main discussion, but with this all in mind, is there a possibility that the seat could have been double-booked? Like I say, I didn't see properly their reservation details, so they could have been in the wrong coach or even on the wrong train. However, if everything was as they were saying it was, is it possible that the seat was somehow double-booked?

I've seen (or been involved in) several instances where two parties have claimed to have a reservation for the same seat, but they've inevitably always turned out to be one side on the wrong train or in the wrong carriage. I've yet to come across a genuine double booking. THIS was probably the best one: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=720679&postcount=14

 

[PudseyBearHST]

weirdly, I like to stand..... and I'm a driver! I always get a seat and I very rarely use it! (I have to on one type of train, very awkward to stand up in) Crazy how it all works out eh!

Same! I like standing by the door/window in the vestibule areas on the HST. But then again I normally only go Reading-Slough or Reading-Paddington

 

[Sprinter153]

So many things aren't enforced these days, which effectively gives clear permission to break the rules.

And with various cuts or general demotivation amongst those in authority, what incentive is there to enforce things and get all the grief...

Certainly at my TOC, if you come to any harm (verbal or physical) whilst trying to enforce revenue/reservation/bicycle/operational rules, you'll be asked why you didn't walk away and let them do what they want. Indeed, the questioning often borders on blame.

In the past when I've encountered reservation holders being refused their seats on a busy train I've quietly (or depending on how obnoxious the person occupying their seat is, not so quietly) given them an Authority to Travel form for First Class travel for their journey. It saves on the confrontation, resolves the situation for the unhappy passenger and provides a veneer of good customer service. It's probably an unpopular choice with some on here but unfortunately the batteries on my cattle prod have run out!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I would always give up my seat for a disabled person, but it does really infuriate me when a company reserves a priority seat for you - its really unfair because you may as well have no reservation at all, because you're likely to have to give it up.

What i hate is how some people take the fact that you have to give up priorities seats for granted. I was on an empty bus apart from one lady at the back and because im only 14 I decided to sit at the front near the driver, because i wasnt used to travelling on my own. It was a priority seat, but hey the bus was empty, right? Well an old man got on and glared at me, and went "AHEM" loudly and angrily and jabbed at the priority seat sign. There were three priority sests available and the bus was empty apart from that woman at the back anyway!!! I was too scared to argue though, so i just got up.

And another time the bus was full, an old lady got on with her daughter wh owas probably about forty, i was sitting down on my way home from school and got up so they old lady could sit down. She smiled at me gratefully but before she could sit down her forty year old daughter nabbed the seat first!!

Sorry to rant, sorry to talk about buses on a train thread. Its just my annoyance over priorty seats being used in the wrong way. I dont know, maybe im just naive and should keep my mouth shut?

 

[aylesbury]

Seen this many times mostly in standard on a trip to brum a party of four took a bay at Euston and when asked to vacate at MK they refused.They were very offensive and even the train manager couldn't persuade them ,but rest of coach loudly told them what they were.This is why I travel first as often as possible much better atmosphere all round.

 

[al78]

I would always give up my seat for a disabled person, but it does really infuriate me when a company reserves a priority seat for you - its really unfair because you may as well have no reservation at all, because you're likely to have to give it up.

What i hate is how some people take the fact that you have to give up priorities seats for granted. I was on an empty bus apart from one lady at the back and because im only 14 I decided to sit at the front near the driver, because i wasnt used to travelling on my own. It was a priority seat, but hey the bus was empty, right? Well an old man got on and glared at me, and went "AHEM" loudly and angrily and jabbed at the priority seat sign. There were three priority sests available and the bus was empty apart from that woman at the back anyway!!! I was too scared to argue though, so i just got up.

And another time the bus was full, an old lady got on with her daughter wh owas probably about forty, i was sitting down on my way home from school and got up so they old lady could sit down. She smiled at me gratefully but before she could sit down her forty year old daughter nabbed the seat first!!

Sorry to rant, sorry to talk about buses on a train thread. Its just my annoyance over priorty seats being used in the wrong way. I dont know, maybe im just naive and should keep my mouth shut?

I can understand your annoyance, it is about people abusing a privilige or right. What you say just about sums it up though, "maybe im just naive and should keep my mouth shut?". When people do that the perpetrator gets their own way unchallenged, which validates their behaviour, and so they do it again, and again, and again, and again. Slowly but surely we are training bullies into society, and the quality of life goes down down down. I can appreciate why a minority go to the other extreme, lose their temper and get violent, it is because there is a limit to how much p*ss taking one can stand before the straw breaks the camels back and the pent up anger/frustration is released.

 

[47271]

Nearly all of my rail travel is done for work and on my own, so I'm generally not that fussed about reservations, and the less fussed you are about them the more years you'll put on your life. Here are my tips for a stress free reservation lifestyle:

1. By all means book a ticket that includes a reserved seat but then actively seek out sections of the train that are unreserved. I'm particularly thinking of Coach G on 11-car Pendolinos or Coach C on Scotrail 170s. Keep away from the fussing, fretting and fiddling that breaks out at every stop.

2. If the train is shorter, say a 9-car 390, and busier, I abide by my reservation, but if someone's sat in it I'll look for alternatives before having a discussion.

3. If there's no alternative for a long journey, I know that I'm 100% in the right, they don't have any special needs, and they're going to be a **** about it then calmly show them no quarter, and they shift. It helps that I'm tall, hefty and Scottish - 'move pal' as a last resort has never failed me. I have to be clear that this has only happened twice in the past 20 years, so this is in no way a pattern of behaviour!

 

[GW43125]

SWT got rid of seat reservations on all trains a few years back and probably one of the best things that happened. Conflicts over seat reservations were one of the most contentious issues around and caused a lot of grief for passengers and staff alike. Advance tickets have a named train time but no actual seat.

Another upside of abandoning reservations became obvious when I took a TPE Man Airport-Edinburgh service. Upon arrival at Piccadilly, a large number of people boarded with bags and were clogging the doorways as they put them away then looked for their reserved seats. It was chaos and we ended up a couple of mins late.

And as for people not taking reserved seats, I was travelling back from Oxford to Reading, four of us were travelling so we took a table of four. One (only one) of the four seats was reserved. I was fully prepared to move and have to stand (only 25 mins, not the end of the world). Upon leaving Oxford, every seat was taken but the reservee (if that's even a word) never appeared. There are certain circumstances in which I'll pass on a seat, such as it being inadequate for my needs (I'm thinking a lot of airline seats, I'm 6'3"), no window or, as with the train this morning, aircon packed up (stood in vestibule instead). I think it's one of those things where every case is different.

 

[skyhigh]

Best one I've seen was last week on a TPE class 185 - the inbound service was late so no reservations labels were placed on the return. The train was fairly busy, but there were free seats. A chap had a reservation, but his booked seat was filled. He asked very politely, but the occupant refused to move because "I had a reserved seat on this train but couldn't get it", and was overall very obnoxious about it.

Later the guard came through checking tickets. The occupant of the seat didn't have a ticket and refused to buy one, so was reported for prosecution... :roll:

 

[bb21]

What i hate is how some people take the fact that you have to give up priorities seats for granted.

Should that happen again, you can simply stare him back, and tell him straight that there are three other priority seats available.

But if you are worried about physical violence, just move, and see it as your good deed for the day that you did him a favour by making his close-to-expiry life that little bit more pleasant, while you have decades ahead of you.

 

[trainophile]

It would encourage younger travellers to give up their seats if those accepting them would bother to say thank you. On a busy Merseyrail the other day a couple probably in their later 60s plonked themselves in a pair of seats offered by a teenage girl (the window seat was already free), with pursed lips and an air of "I should think so", and not even an acknowledgement of thanks.

I was across the aisle and so annoyed that I commented to the stranger next to me that some people have no manners and could at least have said thank you, half hoping the perpetrators heard.

To our younger members, please don't let the odd ignorant incident put you off being considerate, many elderly are extremely grateful for a seat and most will thank you graciously.

 

[PeterC]

What i hate is how some people take the fact that you have to give up priorities seats for granted. I was on an empty bus apart from one lady at the back and because im only 14 I decided to sit at the front near the driver, because i wasnt used to travelling on my own. It was a priority seat, but hey the bus was empty, right? Well an old man got on and glared at me, and went "AHEM" loudly and angrily and jabbed at the priority seat sign. There were three priority sests available and the bus was empty apart from that woman at the back anyway!!! I was too scared to argue though, so i just got up.

Reminds me of an incident on a French train about 40 years ago. There were 4 people in the carriage, myself and SWMBO and an elderly couple occupying the priority seats. Another slightly older couple boards and a row ensues because the man wants to exercise his right to the priority seat.

His wife finally dragged him away to one of the four dozen empty seats.

 

[BestWestern]

So if I'm taking my elderly mother from Waterloo to Bournemouth I should just hope she can get a seat?

Yes. If no seat can be found, you could politely ask others if they'd be willing to surrender their seat for her, and likely be pleasantly surprised at how willing most people will be. Failing that, you could approach the Guard and enquire as to whether she could be permitted to take a vacant seat in first class. In either instance, you should ask only for your mother, and if you are also offered a seat that is a bonus.

What would you do if the pair of you boarded a full bus?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Best way to ensure people want to take their reserved seat is a seat selector.

 

[All Line Rover]

They are priority seats... I reserve them because I am tall and other Pendolino seats are too tight (particularly as I have already had DVT and don't want it again). I'd move if someone genuinely needed it more than me (as with any seat, reserved or otherwise) but as I go for window this is very unlikely (I think it's happened once), the aisle would go first, and a carer does not have a right to those seats over anyone else.

The window seats on Pendolinos are not priority seats (with the exception of C01 and C02). So except in the highly unlikely situation that all priority seats on the train are taken by persons requiring priority seats, there is no reason why you should be asked to vacate a window seat.