Norwich - Kings Cross

[speckledjim]

Out of curiosity, what would be/ are the reasons for there not being a direct Norwich to London Kings Cross service via say Cambridge only?
It's nearly 1h 20m Norwich to Cambridge on GA calling at 5 stations. The direct services from Cambridge to KGX can be under 50m.
An average Norwich to Liverpool St service takes 1h50.

I am thinking, what, with a HST (non electric obv!) would be achievable times for say a Norwich, Cambridge, KGX service? Would a faster train than what GA run, and no stops, reduce the Norwich to Cambridge journey time below an hour thus making it a feasible/competitive alternative?

I am not connected to the railways in anyway, so apologies if it is a ludicrous suggestion!

 

[TheEdge]

The EMT services manage Norwich to Ely, stopping Thetford only, in 50m, and then the GA services have 15m to get from Ely to Cambridge, so even with only two stops it is still 65m! Lets say non stop it could be done in, maybe, 55-60m, although thats guesswork and not accounting to if such a train could be fitted between the existing GA, EMT and freight services. Bear in mind the Breckland line has some very long sections. So I would guess it would be a fairly similar to the Liv. St. journey.

As to it being competitive, not a chance. There is a lot of traffic from the intermediate stations both to Ely and Cambridge as well as into London. Not stopping at those would be insane!

 

[mister-sparky]

But aren't the linespeeds on that line ridiculously slow? If they were improved then that would up it's chances of competitiveness

 

[speckledjim]

Would be interesting to see how fast a non stop Norwich to Cambs service could be though - the other stations are well serviced, although any train between ely/camb picks up plenty of passengers.
My question/interest was raised with current media interest locally in quicker Norwich to Cambridge rail links are talked about as essential for growth for both regional centres - how quick a non stop direct service could be, and then would that open up KGX to Norwich?
Ely North junction will increase capacity, but I guess the linespeed may be the biggest hurdle?
Interestingly, using the norwich to cambs service I have met several people who find it more convenient (and reliable at times) to change at camb and get on the tube or a local service at KGX.

 

[dk1]

But aren't the linespeeds on that line ridiculously slow? If they were improved then that would up it's chances of competitiveness

75-90mph Norwich to Ely, 75mph Ely to Cambridge.

 

[speckledjim]

Some times for consideration from national rail website.

Norwich to liverpool st : approx 1h 50 give or take 4/5m depending on service.
Norwich to london kings cross via liv st/tube: approx 2h 15-20
Norwich to london kings cross via ely & cambs: quickest of 2h 8m. Actual travel time of 1h 55m

The norwich to kgx via ely/cambs involves 2 changes totalling 13 minutes - so the journey time on a train is 1h 55m including a stop at Thetford. Obviously stopping at ely/cambs wud add minutes, but I would say that the above route could offer a very competitive alternative to liverpool street - if line speeds are to be improved/ely north sorted then a direct service could even compete with the fastest norwich to liv street service and have the added bonus of being more central in london.
Just a thought - the whole post is more about, given the above, what are the negatives/hurdles? For me its probably pathways south of cambridge/ely north bottle neck.

 

[High Dyke]

75-90mph Norwich to Ely, 75mph Ely to Cambridge.

Achievable providing the OD level crossing are working correctly.

 

[TheEdge]

Just a thought - the whole post is more about, given the above, what are the negatives/hurdles? For me its probably pathways south of cambridge/ely north bottle neck.

Firstly I think you really are ignoring the fairly large passenger flows that exist from intermediate stations.

Also like I said I'm not entirely sure there would be the path to fit a non-stop service between the existing ones.

 

[philjo]

You would want to call at Thetford & Wymondham to give these stations direct London services.
Is IEP still mooted for the KX-Kings Lynn services - as a bi-mode could run the Norwich portion & join/split with the Lynn portion at Ely (or Cambridge)

 

[speckledjim]

Firstly I think you really are ignoring the fairly large passenger flows that exist from intermediate stations.

Also like I said I'm not entirely sure there would be the path to fit a non-stop service between the existing ones.

Fair point, although brandon/Thetford/Wymondham etc already have substantial services into norwich and towards ely. Furthermore, I am suggesting a Norwich fast that benefits Norwich to london and cambridge (thetford is only an hour and half from london via ely) - the Cambridge expresses bypass towns such as hitchin/stevenage etc that are considerably larger than the towns on the breckland line. Certain kings lynn trains don't stop at littleport/watlington etc. An extreme example would be East Coast trains often miss out huge cities all to the benefit of the destination.

The pathing is more of an issue IMO - although it would be interesting to see figures re how much of a problem it would be now given the signalling upgrades/imminent improvement at ely north.

 

[dk1]

I would say that lack of suitable diesel rolling stock stacks against any idea of operating this route. Passenger numbers are quite substantial between Norwich & London through much of the day (197 on the 13.00 departing Norwich yesterday) but the half-hourly frequency is difficult to compete with. Plans to go through to Stansted are even hampered by shortage of non-electrified stock.

 

[speckledjim]

Thetford possibly although it is well serviced to ely and could just pick up the lynn to kgx from there - same with wymondham. For me stopping at wymondham would defeat the object of a competing service unless the service is run like others - fasts that don't stop and then a longer stopper in between.
The fact that we are discussing it to this extent suggests it isn't the worst suggestion!

 

[TheEdge]

Well, it is.

There is no point in sticking in a fast service along the Breckland line. From any station along there there is a regular service to a station with a service direct to London. Doesn't matter if you are going to Liverpool Street or Kings Cross, one change both ways.

Sticking in a Norwich-KGX direct service will help relatively few. And it will not help all the people along the Breckland line who want to go to KGX. Very very few passengers use the Norwich-Cambridge service despite it being a valid route, sticking on a non-stop service via Cambridge will not increase the flow and as has been said will not compete at all with a half hourly frequency from Norwich.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The key point I think is really off-peak how many Norwich-London and beyond passengers are there? The GEML trains all serve Ipswich, Manningtree and Colchester, two of which are rather large towns, and all three having quite big catchment areas and extensive onward connections that presumably quite a few of the Norwich pax will use - Sudbury, Harwich, Clacton and Chelmsford for example, as well as the towns themselves. The slow train even serves the likes of Chelmsford and Stratford, no doubt they also harbour some custom ex-NRW.

On that basis, and although it is a busy flow, I think Norwich-London is catered rather adequately for by the existing services. Whilst some trains are overcrowded I would argue the possible relief to that is additional or lengthened trains on the southern GEML from Ipswich. If you were absolutely desperate for a service via Cambridge, why not timetable the EMT Liverpool and FCC London KX train to connect at Ely? Easier said than done naturally but surely that (or other similar retimetabling) would be easier than a whole new service via the ECML and Cambridge?

Out of interest, what are the odds that the other Norwich-London service an hour will begin to serve Stratford? It's the only tph non-stop through there and it does now serve a huge variety of connections.

 

[oliMw]

A half hourly stop at Stratford would seem a good idea as it provides services to East London (Central line), South East London (Jubilee Line) The Docklands (DLR), West London (Overground) and Kent (via Stratford International). Meanwhile Liverpool street offers services all round Central London (tube/bus). So with a half hourly service through Stratford the GEML has comprehensive links throughout London every half hour. However I there may be pathing Isses as Stratford is a extremely busy station for GEML services.

 

[speckledjim]

The comments about norwich to London being well served are true. I do wonder if the 'Norwich in 90m' that is being campaigned for locally will ever be achieved.

Having reviewed the above posts I have changed my mind about stops, I think a direct Norwich to KGX service - would love it but it would need to service Attleborough/Thetford etc - I would say weekends would be v popular. Saturday/Sunday services from Kings Lynn to KGX are often standing room only all the way (at least from downham). (Amazing how many people don't get off at camb and get on the extra 4 coaches they add!)

 

[CockneySparrow]

Fair point, although brandon/Thetford/Wymondham etc already have substantial services into norwich and towards ely. Furthermore, I am suggesting a Norwich fast that benefits Norwich to london and cambridge (thetford is only an hour and half from london via ely) - the Cambridge expresses bypass towns such as hitchin/stevenage etc that are considerably larger than the towns on the breckland line. Certain kings lynn trains don't stop at littleport/watlington etc. An extreme example would be East Coast trains often miss out huge cities all to the benefit of the destination.

The pathing is more of an issue IMO - although it would be interesting to see figures re how much of a problem it would be now given the signalling upgrades/imminent improvement at ely north.

One service a day to Lynn doesn't stop at Waterbeach, Littleport and Watlington, and on Saturday from Lynn there is one service

Also Ely North Junction is near enough on the limit, but some of that is unecessary freight paths though

All those three stations still have an hourly service each way

 

[dk1]

One service a day to Lynn doesn't stop at Waterbeach, Littleport and Watlington, and on Saturday from Lynn there is one service

Also Ely North Junction is near enough on the limit, but some of that is unecessary freight paths though

All those three stations still have an hourly service each way

8-cars.

 

[NSE]

That and its hardly the best use of any extra pathing that might be found on the ECML.

 

[dk1]

That and its hardly the best use of any extra pathing that might be found on the ECML.

It's North of Cambridge so no problem.

 

[NSE]

That and its hardly the best use of any extra pathing that might be found on the ECML.

 

[Eagle]

That and its hardly the best use of any extra pathing that might be found on the ECML.

It wouldn't use any extra paths on the ECML. We're talking about extending a Cambridge Flyer service to Norwich.

 

[NSE]

Well I wondered that, which could happen with IEP as someone mentioned, but in that case it's never gonna happen what with FCC being all electric, if it was a new service with diesel stock I could see it happening. But then it becomes a whole new path which could be better used.

Also, apologies for the second post, the wifi here is dreadfully slow, which combined with the autocorrect on this iPad is not good :P

 

[philjo]

One option if East-West rail was routed via Luton-Stevenage is a Norwich-Bristol service via Cambridge, Stevenage, Luton Airport, Bletchley, Oxford, Swindon, Bath Spa.

 

[Sleepy]

extra stop at Stratford is unlikely given the dwell time problem on XX38 services with current stock with people laden with suitcases and /or pushchairs all trying to board coach H :roll:
Could be useful on up fast when stock replaced !

 

[speckledjim]

Whilst we are talking about Norwich, is the 'Norwich in 90' campaign to get a service to London in an hour and half at all possible/realistic? The current fastest i can see is 1h44 and only stops at Diss/Ipswich.

 

[dk1]

Whilst we are talking about Norwich, is the 'Norwich in 90' campaign to get a service to London in an hour and half at all possible/realistic? The current fastest i can see is 1h44 and only stops at Diss/Ipswich.

Easy with a decent run. Trouble is there are too many passengers & too many trains these days for it to happen reliably yet. Needs infrastructure improvements.

The current 07.40 East Anglian stops as you say at Diss 07.58 & Ipswich 08.20. It catches another service up by Chelmsford, slow run to Shenfield then crawls through Forest Gate/Stratford before waiting outside Liverpool St for the 09.18 to vacate its arrival platform 13. On a recent trip I departed Ipswich at 08.28 due to a GSMR fault, and thanks to very on the ball controllers & signallers, I still terminated London 3 early at 09.21.