Norton Bridge capacity improvements and new services

[BantamMenace]

How will they solve north-south capacity before 2026? I cant see how more WCML trains can be avoided for the next 12 years even with modest passenger growth. Manchester Victoria-London services seem the best option because of lack of capacity into Piccadilly. If not Euston then were?

Taking the WCML commuters either through crossrail or onto a new cross london line would free up paths into euston. That would be probably the only option to free up space into euston before a total rebuild

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The demand must be for more Manchester to Birmingham services - be it via Crewe or Stoke, stopping at those and other stations or not.

Presently there are just the two cross country services, compare that with the frequencies between Manchester and Leeds / Liverpool. Three / four trains per hour is the frequency needed to offer a 'walk up' service, and the competing motorway is very busy.

 

[The Planner]

I would agree, XC are desperate to speed up the existing services as it is.

 

[thenorthern]

I would think an additional Birmingham to Manchester service would be in quite a few peoples interest, I can't see anything else being able to run through Stoke-on-Trent though as I would say the line there is at capacity which I think could be a problem as rail companies are now choosing Stoke over Crewe for Manchester services and it would be in the interest of any rail company to take any services along this line.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is Stoke at that close to capacity? 7tph plus freight each way I make it, and once you get beyond Kidsgrove that thins down to 5tph via Macclesfield. I believe that for a long time XC have been looking to switch 1tph of the via Stoke services to run via Crewe so surely if that happens and a third Manchester train materialises, it would be within XC's interests to run via Stoke again?

 

[thenorthern]

Is Stoke at that close to capacity? 7tph plus freight each way I make it, and once you get beyond Kidsgrove that thins down to 5tph via Macclesfield. I believe that for a long time XC have been looking to switch 1tph of the via Stoke services to run via Crewe so surely if that happens and a third Manchester train materialises, it would be within XC's interests to run via Stoke again?

I doubt it would be in the interests of CrossCountry to run via Crewe rather than Stoke, I have seen it discussed a couple of times but I can't see it happening.

The problem with Stoke-on-Trent I think is not the number of trains but the varying speeds, between Stoke and Kidsgrove there are 7 trains but they have varying top speeds from 75 MPH to in excess of 100 MPH and one of those 7 calls at Longport, also there is no where for Inter-City trains to overtake Northern 323s until past Cheadle Hulme (I think). This is why the timetable has 2 intercity trains which are then immediately followed by a local train.

 

[The Planner]

You could do the crappy move at Macc in the side platform, not brilliant though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I doubt it would be in the interests of CrossCountry to run via Crewe rather than Stoke, I have seen it discussed a couple of times but I can't see it happening.

The problem with Stoke-on-Trent I think is not the number of trains but the varying speeds, between Stoke and Kidsgrove there are 7 trains but they have varying top speeds from 75 MPH to in excess of 100 MPH and one of those 7 calls at Longport, also there is no where for Inter-City trains to overtake Northern 323s until past Cheadle Hulme (I think). This is why the timetable has 2 intercity trains which are then immediately followed by a local train.

You can overtake at Macclesfield using P3.
The XC via Crewe was to get a shorter journey time, while the Stoke path would be used by an LM/NT service.
The lack of stock prevents any action though.

The Stoke route will still suffer from the 25mph at Stone, and the junction at Kidsgrove is awkward (75mph, with only 15mph towards Crewe).
Mind you, Crewe is as bad.
It's depressingly routine to be stopped on the approach from Manchester before being let into the station - similarly from Liverpool/Warrington.

 

[The Planner]

Thats just approach control on the approach to Crewe from Manchester that causes that.

 

[najaB]

Thats just approach control on the approach to Crewe from Manchester that causes that.

Showing my ignorance here, but I thought approach control would show a cautionary aspect that then clears to proceed when the train gets close. I never knew that it would check the driver right down to a stop - in this day of eco-driving is it common that trains are made to stop just outside the station, start from a standstill and then stop again at the platform?

 

[The Planner]

Depends on how it is set up, some signals require the track circuit to be occupied for a fair chunk of time before they step up. It needs fixing but no one is going to touch Crewe (Gresty Lane resignalling excepted) until its decided on the HS2 plans.

 

[Senex]

The Stoke route will still suffer from the 25mph at Stone, and the junction at Kidsgrove is awkward (75mph, with only 15mph towards Crewe).
Mind you, Crewe is as bad.
It's depressingly routine to be stopped on the approach from Manchester before being let into the station - similarly from Liverpool/Warrington.

The Stoke route is even worse than that. Add in Cheadle Hulme Jn, the very low speed kink out of the tunnel at Macclesfield, and a number of middling restrictions.
The Crewe line is nowadays hugely better except for Crewe itself, which is another of the instances of cheese-paring more than 30 years ago, in this case when the Crewe layout was re-designed. It would have been possible to get a much better junction towards Manchester and this was planned and then cut out. The result is a 20 restriction that extends further north than it used to and results in slower times out to Sydney Bridge than 50 years ago and an absolutely ghastly run in from the north which involves approach control a long way back if you're going into platform 5 or on to the up fast -- that is, if you don't get stopped as mentioned here.
For the overall M/c-B'ham time the other problem, common to both routes, is the very slow route south of Bushbury Jn.

 

[Class 170101]

XC would only use a third path via Crewe and not divert any existing services. Stoke services are a good money spinner for them.

 

[thenorthern]

When CrossCountry took over the franchise if I remember correctly there was only the Bournemouth to Manchester train that went through Stoke-on-Trent and the Bristol to Manchester train ran to Glasgow on what is now the London-Birmingham-Glasgow service.

I think it was after December 2007 that the route was split and naturally CrossCountry chose Stoke over Crewe.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When CrossCountry took over the franchise if I remember correctly there was only the Bournemouth to Manchester train that went through Stoke-on-Trent and the Bristol to Manchester train ran to Glasgow on what is now the London-Birmingham-Glasgow service.

I think it was after December 2007 that the route was split and naturally CrossCountry chose Stoke over Crewe.

Judging by the December 2005 timetable here both Manchester-Birmingham services even back then ran via Stoke. I don't believe Manchester-Birmingham via Crewe has ever been more than 4 or 5 trains per day under any Cross-Country franchise. From what I can remember, strictly speaking not a lot has changed since that era - the only notable change was that via Preston services were truncated at Birmingham for 7 or so years: most Manchester-Scotland trains didn't run south beyond Piccadilly.

 

[thenorthern]

Judging by the December 2005 timetable here both Manchester-Birmingham services even back then ran via Stoke. I don't believe Manchester-Birmingham via Crewe has ever been more than 4 or 5 trains per day under any Cross-Country franchise. From what I can remember, strictly speaking not a lot has changed since that era - the only notable change was that via Preston services were truncated at Birmingham for 7 or so years: most Manchester-Scotland trains didn't run south beyond Piccadilly.

Yep that was it the via Warrington and Preston. Before XC came I don't think there were any Manchester to Bristol trains in 2007 but before 2006 there was. I think before Operation princess there were some VXC via Wilmslow but most were cut in 2002 time.

Also was the Central Trains Stafford to Stoke-on-Trent local briefly reintroduced after the upgrade 2003 but then cut again in 2004 or am I thinking of something else?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

....

Also was the Central Trains Stafford to Stoke-on-Trent local briefly reintroduced after the upgrade 2003 but then cut again in 2004 or am I thinking of something else?

No, not re-introduced.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I noticed yesterday that work on site at Norton Bridge is well under way.
You can now see where the new flyover will cross the WCML north of Norton Bridge, as they are excavating the abutments for the new bridge - another blockade will be needed to put it in.

The future WCML slow line junction a mile south south of Norton Bridge is also now clear, with the route then wandering off to the west and out of sight from the current railway.
Big cranes are now on site preparing the new route.
Hopefully all this will happen without any disruption to normal traffic until it is ready to be connected.

Work at Stafford on the new loop is also well under way.
The 100mph upgrade to the slow lines between Norton Bridge and Crewe is also proving its worth for LM's Birmingham trains.
Being turned slow line at Crewe does not signal the 5 minute penalty it once did, and avoids the approach control and conflicts at Stafford.

 

[The Planner]

Requires a few big blocks as there is the slow line connection, remodellling of Norton Bridge itself and also putting in the flyover. The conflicts at Doxey dont go away even after Stafford resignalling as it is staying the same as it is now.

 

[dangie]

Work at Stafford on the new loop is also well under way.

What loop is this?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What loop is this?

Loop to the west from Trent Valley Jn through the station using old sidings and the disused Post Office platform.
Somewhere to park 775m container trains off the main line.

 

[dangie]

Loop to the west from Trent Valley Jn through the station using old sidings and the disused Post Office platform.
Somewhere to park 775m container trains off the main line.

Thank you.