Northern's Problems in the North West

[LNW-GW Joint]

I suspect the blockade would not have succeeded because NR has had continuing problems installing bases with the troublesome ground conditions.
I don't think there would have been any benefit in trying to squeeze it into 2 months.
Looking back, huge amounts of blockade time has gone unused on much of the route (Farnworth, Chorley etc).

 

[Moonshot]

Interestingly Tony Miles says that the previous RDW agreement was allowed to lapse because neither the company nor the union wanted it to continue. Northern have since made both a short term (to deal with the current training troubles) and a long term RDW offer tied to a salary settlement to ASLEF but the union has refused to put the offers to its members as they believe that not allowing RDW give the union more power.

I have made this point a few times now. There are plenty of drivers ( and guards ) who are happy to work rest days ( or as it's called elsewhere, Overtime ). Why oh why does the free choice made by staff has to be subject to an agreement I simply do not know.

 

[Bantamzen]

Suppose it depends on exactly what NR said about the additional blockade as well . If there was still no guarantee that it would recover the program and deliver on time then perhaps it was best to defer the introduction of electric trains on the route for December . It would be frustrating for passengers to have a two month blockade for electrification works and then not be able to run electric trains . Had Northern got to the end of March thinking that they would be able to run Electric trains on Bolton and then found out they could not , the timetable change would have been even harder to deliver .

Plus making plans for a 2 month blockade at short notice is no easy task , especially at a station as busy as Bolton .

I suspect the blockade would not have succeeded because NR has had continuing problems installing bases with the troublesome ground conditions.
I don't think there would have been any benefit in trying to squeeze it into 2 months.
Looking back, huge amounts of blockade time has gone unused on much of the route (Farnworth, Chorley etc).

Indeed, I strongly suspect, especially given the collapse of Carillion, that a 2 month blockade would have slipped badly and caused further chaos along the line for even longer. In fact who knows, maybe Northern had been tipped off that Carillion were in serious trouble and this was part of their thinking? Although saying that, had this been the case then perhaps they really ought to have had several contingency plans in place?

Whatever the reasons though, with the complex mix of infrastructure delays, delays to cascades, franchise commitments, crew rostering and so on it was probably, with hindsight prudent that the May changes should have been put on hold across the board. Of course this would have had knock-on effects to all operators in the North of England, and indeed services beyond. So no one TOC could have made that decision, this should have been a Ministerial / DfT top-down decision once it was clear planners were struggling.

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed, I strongly suspect, especially given the collapse of Carillion, that a 2 month blockade would have slipped badly and caused further chaos along the line for even longer. In fact who knows, maybe Northern had been tipped off that Carillion were in serious trouble and this was part of their thinking? Although saying that, had this been the case then perhaps they really ought to have had several contingency plans in place?

Whatever the reasons though, with the complex mix of infrastructure delays, delays to cascades, franchise commitments, crew rostering and so on it was probably, with hindsight prudent that the May changes should have been put on hold across the board. Of course this would have had knock-on effects to all operators in the North of England, and indeed services beyond. So no one TOC could have made that decision, this should have been a Ministerial / DfT top-down decision once it was clear planners were struggling.

I would agree with that, but of course us commentators on the sidelines are not privy to the decision making process, I guess an independent enquiry would sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak

 

[superkev]

Let me fix that for you

That didn't answer my question which was if drivers where allowed to work there rest days would the current crisis have been avoided.
Personally I don't see why it needs an agreement if drivers choose to do overtime and work there days off. Dosent happen much elseware.
K

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would agree with that, but of course us commentators on the sidelines are not privy to the decision making process, I guess an independent enquiry would sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak

Contracts would get in the way of rescheduling.
All sorts of management issues arise if you let key contractual dates slip (unless you are DfT-owned Network Rail).
But we are seeing the consequences now.

 

[northwichcat]

Network Rail are looking for a new Train Running Controller based at Manchester Piccadilly: https://www.indeed.co.uk/viewjob?jk=95d52f4d3362a01a&tk=1cf7k0g7n920r9jg&from=serp&vjs=3 I wonder if this relates to the recent problems?

 

[Overspeed110]

I have made this point a few times now. There are plenty of drivers ( and guards ) who are happy to work rest days ( or as it's called elsewhere, Overtime ). Why oh why does the free choice made by staff has to be subject to an agreement I simply do not know.

Regardless of whether there's an agreement or not, if the Company don't want overtime, you're not working them.
When I was at the old Northern in the early days, it operated for years without any RDW, I believe it only came back in fairly recently. Much better to have enough drivers to run the TT without relying on people to work their days off. There's more to life than money.

 

[mandub]

Re RDW at Northern. My understanding is that ASLEF would contend that there should only be RDW for training and development purposes and that Northern have been persistently using it to cover the day to day train plan and letting training needs fall behind.
ASLEF want depots fully manned and repeatedly asked Northern to agree a minimum depot establishment figure for each depot (number of drivers reqd to run traind without RDW). Northern refused to do this. ASLEF state that undermanned depots and reliance on RDW means drivers are refused annual leave requests as only the bare minimum are ever allowed off if there are staff shortages.
I dunno how accurate this is, but it's what we hear from the local ASLEF reps at my depot.

 

[Carlisle]

I have made this point a few times now. There are plenty of drivers ( and guards ) who are happy to work rest days ( or as it's called elsewhere, Overtime ). Why oh why does the free choice made by staff has to be subject to an agreement I simply do not know.

True, and if the forthcoming enquiry finds this to be a major contributing factor to the recent disruption then agreements like the one in question that allow ASLEF or any other union to introduce a de facto overtime ban on an essential public service without a democratic mandate should simply be forbidden in future .

 

[Overspeed110]

True, and if the forthcoming enquiry finds this to be a major contributing factor to the recent disruption then agreements like the one in question that allow ASLEF or any other union to introduce a de facto overtime ban on an essential public service without a democratic mandate should simply be forbidden in future .

JHC! How many times?

 

[Moonshot]

Regardless of whether there's an agreement or not, if the Company don't want overtime, you're not working them.
When I was at the old Northern in the early days, it operated for years without any RDW, I believe it only came back in fairly recently. Much better to have enough drivers to run the TT without relying on people to work their days off. There's more to life than money.

Except that some drivers and guards prefer to earn extra money. In my case ,the extra I earn goes straight into a pension pot, and will hopefully allow me to retire a little earlier. It's also worth pointing out that some staff have been working extra after their normal finish time and getting paid for a 12 hour shift. ASLEF have took a stance where they think the whole train plan should be covered by everyone working 35 hours only. Of course that would mean more subs for Union Funds, and also extra cost to the TOCs which invariably would result in the cost to the passengers going up a lot more

 

[ninjazx6r]

I think one issue that often makes the car driver take to the train in urban areas is the cost of parking a car in cities, this can level out any cost differential between the car and the train.

 

[Loop & Link]

Network Rail are looking for a new Train Running Controller based at Manchester Piccadilly: https://www.indeed.co.uk/viewjob?jk=95d52f4d3362a01a&tk=1cf7k0g7n920r9jg&from=serp&vjs=3 I wonder if this relates to the recent problems?

Surely all the know-it-all’s on this thread will be applying?

 

[RickSanchez]

Good operational planning would reduce RDW to a minimum if not zero.

There should be no reliance on it o operate any day to Day running of the train plan.

Although extra money for drivers may be a nicety and may alleviate some short term problems it would just be papering over the cracks of an unworkable timetable and roster

 

[Tomnick]

Except that some drivers and guards prefer to earn extra money. In my case ,the extra I earn goes straight into a pension pot, and will hopefully allow me to retire a little earlier. It's also worth pointing out that some staff have been working extra after their normal finish time and getting paid for a 12 hour shift. ASLEF have took a stance where they think the whole train plan should be covered by everyone working 35 hours only. Of course that would mean more subs for Union Funds, and also extra cost to the TOCs which invariably would result in the cost to the passengers going up a lot more

That is, or at least was (if it’s changed recently?), one of the policies in the union’s charter. I assume it has come from the annual conference, and is reviewed regularly at same, and therefore is the decision of the representatives attending, the branches that they represent and - ultimately - the membership. It makes perfect sense to work on the basis of an agreement to monitor and manage the use of RDW in the spirit of that policy. You can’t donthat if everyone is doing their own thing individually.

 

[Moonshot]

Good operational planning would reduce RDW to a minimum if not zero.

There should be no reliance on it o operate any day to Day running of the train plan.

Although extra money for drivers may be a nicety and may alleviate some short term problems it would just be papering over the cracks of an unworkable timetable and roster

Except that the reality is RDW is used to cover the train plan....and always will be. Its more economical from a company point of view ( in particular one that relies on an operating subsidy which is slowly shrinking ). That really is the reality. I simply dont see why drivers and guards should not be able to use their own free will and choose whetehr to work more hours or not. Its interesting to note that guards are queueing up to work Sundays and rest days simply to recover lost monies from strike action.

 

[RickSanchez]

• All free time off from duty to be rostered consecutively, to be guaranteed and mandatory by the elimination of institutionalised overtime

Above is from the aslef charter, so if a driver is a member of ASLEF they are joining to say they agree with this principle, which in effect is an elimination of institutionalised RDW.

This is also best practice from the institute of railway operators in their handboook, which has most of the FOCs and TOCs as members, reducing RDW to essentially zero.

 

[Moonshot]

That is, or at least was (if it’s changed recently?), one of the policies in the union’s charter. I assume it has come from the annual conference, and is reviewed regularly at same, and therefore is the decision of the representatives attending, the branches that they represent and - ultimately - the membership. It makes perfect sense to work on the basis of an agreement to monitor and manage the use of RDW in the spirit of that policy. You can’t donthat if everyone is doing their own thing individually.

Well then maybe that policy needs looking at. We attach all sorts of conditions to a RDW policy which are frankly useless, and the most simplest and effective approach imo would be to pay overtime at time and a half or similar. Which then means that overtime rates would go up in line with annual pay rises. Unions are not acting in the members best interest just now, as it seems to me they are attempting to run the business. I can absolutely tell you there is some major concerns building up now in the membership.

 

[RickSanchez]

Except that the reality is RDW is used to cover the train plan....and always will be. Its more economical from a company point of view ( in particular one that relies on an operating subsidy which is slowly shrinking ). That really is the reality. I simply dont see why drivers and guards should not be able to use their own free will and choose whetehr to work more hours or not. Its interesting to note that guards are queueing up to work Sundays and rest days simply to recover lost monies from strike action.

This is the institusionalised idea of RDW working which ASLEF are seeking to remove. It might have always been done that way but it isn’t the necessarily right

 

[L+Y]

How's the timetable running today? A cursory glance at RTT this morning seemed to indicate things were running smoothly in the peak at both Kirkham and Chorley- I think I read somewhere today was the first day that the emergency timetable matched the rostering schedules...?

 

[Moonshot]

• All free time off from duty to be rostered consecutively, to be guaranteed and mandatory by the elimination of institutionalised overtime

Above is from the aslef charter, so if a driver is a member of ASLEF they are joining to say they agree with this principle, which in effect is an elimination of institutionalised RDW.

This is also best practice from the institute of railway operators in their handboook, which has most of the FOCs and TOCs as members, reducing RDW to essentially zero.

You would have to wonder just how many drivers are actually aware of that. But I will stress again, RDW is completely voluntary, and drivers and guards do sign to say on individual rest days that they are not available to work. No issue with that at all.

 

[Moonshot]

How's the timetable running today? A cursory glance at RTT this morning seemed to indicate things were running smoothly in the peak at both Kirkham and Chorley- I think I read somewhere today was the first day that the emergency timetable matched the rostering schedules...?

Just had a quick look myself , does look a bit better, but still some issues. Anyone travelling to the airport this morning from Bolton ( which somebody is doing on this thread ) would have got there on time.

 

[RickSanchez]

You would have to wonder just how many drivers are actually aware of that. But I will stress again, RDW is completely voluntary, and drivers and guards do sign to say on individual rest days that they are not available to work. No issue with that at all.

I don’t have a problem with it either and as I say short term it will go a long way to alleviating some problems but in the long term it treats the symptoms of the problem but doesn’t cure the disease

 

[cuccir]

How's the timetable running today? A cursory glance at RTT this morning seemed to indicate things were running smoothly in the peak at both Kirkham and Chorley- I think I read somewhere today was the first day that the emergency timetable matched the rostering schedules...?

Looking at the PPM, yesterday (4th June) was the best weekday Nationally for on time trains (87.7%) since the 17th May and had the lowest weekday cancelled/v.late trains (3%) since the 18th May ie the final days of the old timetable. For Northern it was the best non-strike weekday since the 18th May for on time trains and lowest for cancellations since the 17th May. The same is true for key regions that had previously been failing (eg Lancashire/Cumbria Inter-Urban, North Manchester). Today is better again both Nationally and for Northern on all measures so far.

However, numbers are still akin to a poor but not exceptionally poor day a few months ago: for example for Northern, today's (current) numbers would have been the 2nd lowest for on time trains and 3rd most for cancelled trains of any date in April. So better, but not yet necessarily 'good'.

 

[RickSanchez]

Just had a quick look myself , does look a bit better, but still some issues. Anyone travelling to the airport this morning from Bolton ( which somebody is doing on this thread ) would have got there on time.

Looks like still nearly 100 full and part cancellations on top of the 165 removed services and 50 short formed services so still nowhere near an acceptable service level

 

[Moonshot]

This is the institusionalised idea of RDW working which ASLEF are seeking to remove. It might have always been done that way but it isn’t the necessarily right

Its quite ironic that ASLEF and RMT maintain a " equalisation record " of drivers and guards in order to ensure fairness in the overtime records

 

[Moonshot]

Looks like still nearly 100 full and part cancellations on top of the 165 removed services and 50 short formed services so still nowhere near an acceptable service level

PPM
76
Trains
930
On-time (<5/10 min late)
713
Late (>5/10 min & 0 min)
166
V. late (>30 min) or cancelled
51
Thats what it is right now.

 

[furnessvale]

I think one issue that often makes the car driver take to the train in urban areas is the cost of parking a car in cities, this can level out any cost differential between the car and the train.

Which is why any patch of land in inner cities that is not fenced off, or being actively built on, is covered by parked cars during the working day.

 

[Tomnick]

Well then maybe that policy needs looking at. We attach all sorts of conditions to a RDW policy which are frankly useless, and the most simplest and effective approach imo would be to pay overtime at time and a half or similar. Which then means that overtime rates would go up in line with annual pay rises. Unions are not acting in the members best interest just now, as it seems to me they are attempting to run the business. I can absolutely tell you there is some major concerns building up now in the membership.

The membership, through their branches and the representatives that they send to conference, have the power to have it looked at and changed if they so wish.