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Northern's Problems in the North West

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Bletchleyite

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I wasn't a fan of the idea of an emergency timetable when it was first pushed last week, but after living through the on-going problems and seeing things get worse, not better, I can't see much else of an option any time soon.

The problem with the current situation is that you can't plan. If, say, Ormskirk to Preston was to be dropped to 0.5tph or even as low as a morning, lunchtime and evening train, at least you know which ones and know that you can either plan to use a particular train or plan not to use the train if it's not viable. Whereas at the moment it's a lottery and has a high chance of ruining your day - in essence, you *can't* plan to use the train unless your journey is totally non time critical.

I would genuinely rather it went as low as the strike timetable but with all trains maximum length (and properly publicised including in the planners), than the present debacle.
 
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Last night took me almost 4 hours to get home from Manchester to Leyland. Arrived at 17:05 for the 17:34 service from Oxford Road. That was showing as cancelled, then reinstated then cancelled. Only the :34 services were still in the system, with everything else cancelled, so staff told us to wait for the 18:34, which was cancelled 10 minutes before departure. They then sent us to Victoria for the 19:05, despite it showing as cancelled. Oxford Road speak to control who are adamant that it will be running and reinstated. Get to Victoria and it is cancelled. Staff there are shaking their heads and bemoaning the fact that Oxford Road are fobbing people off to get them off their station. Victoria staff warn us that that the 20:05 was likely to be cancelled and tell us to head back to Oxford Road for the 19:34. They check with control as we push back on this and yes say control, that is definitely running.

19:34 was cancelled when we arrived a few minutes before departure. Oxford Road had ordered a coach that could take some of us north, but it wasn't due to arrive until 8pm and was going to take a lot longer than a service if one every comes. Tempers are getting a bit short on the station as a number of passengers are fed up of the shuffle between stations and still no trains. Control are consulted and they absolutely, positively, definitely will be running the 20:05 from Victoria. Oxford Road staff promise to keep the coach on-site if by any chance anything happens to that service. We are told to hop on a TPE York service round to Victoria. Fortunately the 20:05 does indeed run and I get to Leyland around 9pm.

Everything was shambolic at the stations. No forward planning, just finger crossing that the train in an hour will come. No plan B (the coach request was at my instigation when the 18:34 was cancelled) and control either having no real clue what is going to happen, or staff being economical with the truth. I believe that control were telling them what they were relaying to us though. Clearly no support or thought given to anyone at an unstaffed station, as the only attempts to help or do anything proactive were driven by complaints to staff.

This morning the first few trains were cancelled that I went for, so I decided to call it a day and head home to do some work as I am fortunate enough to do that. Talking to passengers yesterday struggling to get home, you understand the real impact this on-going shambles is having. A scaffolder from Blackpool having to leave at 6am to have a chance of being at work in Manchester at 9am and then not getting home regularly after 9pm, despite finishing work at 5pm. The lady who is having to take next week off to take her child out of nursery as she won't have any cover and can't guarantee to get to the nursery before it closes. Finally there was a nurse who has already missed the start of early shifts multiple times last week and this week, causing colleagues to have to stay on and cover her. As a result, she has had to change to later shifts, which has had a knock-on to childcare, increasing her costs, causing the hospital problems and meaning she sees less of her family.

I wasn't a fan of the idea of an emergency timetable when it was first pushed last week, but after living through the on-going problems and seeing things get worse, not better, I can't see much else of an option any time soon.

Well for those who think this is only a minor blip and that passengers will return when the problem is fixed I think are deluded. Yes some will return because they no choice but a substancial number wont. I experienced 2 bouts of unreliability on 2 separate commuter routes in BR days although neither was quite as bad as the current situation. From then onwards I vowed to try and avoid having to relying on a commuter train where possible and that has continued to the present day. The implications for the Northern franchise are significant and some people don't seem to get that an unreliable commuter train service can really stuff up peoples lives as the above shows.

And then of course as well as the current shambles you have the ongoing strikes which affect the whole of Northern.
 

TrW

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Last night took me almost 4 hours to get home from Manchester to Leyland. Arrived at 17:05 for the 17:34 service from Oxford Road. That was showing as cancelled, then reinstated then cancelled. Only the :34 services were still in the system, with everything else cancelled, so staff told us to wait for the 18:34, which was cancelled 10 minutes before departure. They then sent us to Victoria for the 19:05, despite it showing as cancelled. Oxford Road speak to control who are adamant that it will be running and reinstated. Get to Victoria and it is cancelled. Staff there are shaking their heads and bemoaning the fact that Oxford Road are fobbing people off to get them off their station. Victoria staff warn us that that the 20:05 was likely to be cancelled and tell us to head back to Oxford Road for the 19:34. They check with control as we push back on this and yes say control, that is definitely running.

19:34 was cancelled when we arrived a few minutes before departure. Oxford Road had ordered a coach that could take some of us north, but it wasn't due to arrive until 8pm and was going to take a lot longer than a service if one every comes. Tempers are getting a bit short on the station as a number of passengers are fed up of the shuffle between stations and still no trains. Control are consulted and they absolutely, positively, definitely will be running the 20:05 from Victoria. Oxford Road staff promise to keep the coach on-site if by any chance anything happens to that service. We are told to hop on a TPE York service round to Victoria. Fortunately the 20:05 does indeed run and I get to Leyland around 9pm.

Everything was shambolic at the stations. No forward planning, just finger crossing that the train in an hour will come. No plan B (the coach request was at my instigation when the 18:34 was cancelled) and control either having no real clue what is going to happen, or staff being economical with the truth. I believe that control were telling them what they were relaying to us though. Clearly no support or thought given to anyone at an unstaffed station, as the only attempts to help or do anything proactive were driven by complaints to staff.

This morning the first few trains were cancelled that I went for, so I decided to call it a day and head home to do some work as I am fortunate enough to do that. Talking to passengers yesterday struggling to get home, you understand the real impact this on-going shambles is having. A scaffolder from Blackpool having to leave at 6am to have a chance of being at work in Manchester at 9am and then not getting home regularly after 9pm, despite finishing work at 5pm. The lady who is having to take next week off to take her child out of nursery as she won't have any cover and can't guarantee to get to the nursery before it closes. Finally there was a nurse who has already missed the start of early shifts multiple times last week and this week, causing colleagues to have to stay on and cover her. As a result, she has had to change to later shifts, which has had a knock-on to childcare, increasing her costs, causing the hospital problems and meaning she sees less of her family.

I wasn't a fan of the idea of an emergency timetable when it was first pushed last week, but after living through the on-going problems and seeing things get worse, not better, I can't see much else of an option any time soon.

Please be reassured some forum members are experiencing near to normal service levels
 

Bletchleyite

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Please be reassured some forum members are experiencing near to normal service levels

All users should always be able to expect the specified level of service, delayed only by factors totally outside the railway's control.

In my experience, that's what I mainly get on LNR/WMT and VT. Why should Northern be any different?
 

Bovverboy

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0714 Blackburn to Southport

This service was cancelled throughout due to a decision by the train operating company.

That’s a new one.

That was the reason given for most of yesterdays cancellations on the Chat moss line (which happened to be well over 50% of those scheduled - only 16/17 journeys operated, out of 40).
 

urbophile

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Would anybody (especially rail professionals who might have inside information) like to hazard a guess about how the Lime Street blockade starting tomorrow will affect services? Is it likely to make them more reliable, less so, or make no difference?
 

Merseysider

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Another immense clusterf*ck this morning, with nothing leaving Buckshaw Parkway between 0821 and 1009.

This isn’t minor, or a blip. This is sustained.
 

nedchester

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Would anybody (especially rail professionals who might have inside information) like to hazard a guess about how the Lime Street blockade starting tomorrow will affect services? Is it likely to make them more reliable, less so, or make no difference?

There will be less train drivers required. Also, there are amendments to the original blockade plans. CLC trains terminating at Warrington Central, Blackpool trains terminating at Wigan, one train (instead of two) to Man Vic from Huyton and the Windermere service becoming buses.

Details on OTT/RTT
 

TrW

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All users should always be able to expect the specified level of service, delayed only by factors totally outside the railway's control.

In my experience, that's what I mainly get on LNR/WMT and VT. Why should Northern be any different?

Apologies I was being sardonic. I share your views 100%. However some of the quotes on this forum this week include the following crackers:

'Once, in almost two weeks now, I've been more than 30 mins late. That's no worse than it's ever been.'


'despite the real operational issues we are facing which are really frustrating for the likes of me, the fact remains that passengers are still getting from a to b.'


'My recent trips on Northern have been a bit more frustrating than normal but nothing of great concern'
 

trainophile

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That was the reason given for most of yesterdays cancellations on the Chat moss line (which happened to be well over 50% of those scheduled - only 16/17 journeys operated, out of 40).

Well as “reasons” go it’s pretty poor to unacceptable. It comes across as “we’ve given up”.
 

ainsworth74

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The implications for the Northern franchise are significant and some people don't seem to get that an unreliable commuter train service can really stuff up peoples lives as the above shows.

I think, looking longer term, that's the big concern for me. Whilst it was an arguable new timetable "blip" there probably wasn't too much to be worried about. But we're now at the end of week two and I don't think PPM on the West of the Northern Franchise has even managed to crawl to 50%. So more than 50% of services are either delayed or cancelled! Meanwhile over here in the East PPM has broadly recovered back to around 80% plus (today being an exception in West Yorkshire where it's down in the mid-60s). Whilst 80% is not good enough and down from the 90% plus that was being managed prior to May 20 it's not as catastrophic in the way that the consistently below 40% PPM has been in the West (and continues to be).

Unlike in the South East where the choice is often either take the train or try and work from home more (which isn't always practical) there are choices in the North. And I'm now increasingly concerned that even when the service does recover back to 90% or more PPM that the damage in the West is going to end up taking years and years to repair. What that will look like in terms of the Franchises finances who knows. Many people may well stick out their current season ticket but how many will renew? Most franchises are built on the rock solid season ticket income and Northern is no exception. If that collapses in the West? That could be a big black hole. That's before we consider the impacts of more people driving into major urban areas like Manchester.
 

Howardh

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How long will it take me to get to the Airport from Radcliffe metrolink? I'm giving up on the trains and will use the 524 to get me to the nearest tram stop. Reckon if I'm there for 10am I should be at the airport for 11.30am.
 

Bletchleyite

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How long will it take me to get to the Airport from Radcliffe metrolink? I'm giving up on the trains and will use the 524 to get me to the nearest tram stop. Reckon if I'm there for 10am I should be at the airport for 11.30am.

Try a Google journey plan and deselect trains as an option.
 

Bantamzen

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How long will it take me to get to the Airport from Radcliffe metrolink? I'm giving up on the trains and will use the 524 to get me to the nearest tram stop. Reckon if I'm there for 10am I should be at the airport for 11.30am.

Looking at the TfGM planner it would take just a touch 1:30 to make the journey by tram, although you might want to give yourself a bit longer in case the trams are busy!

https://my.tfgm.com/#/journeys/
 

Bertie the bus

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Quite a lot has been made on here about passengers who have made staff cry, which of course should be condemned, but this morning at Preston I witnessed a woman with 3 small kids break down. I should have gone over to her and said ‘Don’t worry love, you might get there eventually’.
 

Howardh

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Try a Google journey plan and deselect trains as an option.

Looking at the TfGM planner it would take just a touch 1:30 to make the journey by tram, although you might want to give yourself a bit longer in case the trams are busy!

https://my.tfgm.com/#/journeys/
Thanks, I've tried the tfgm website and it says evert 12 minutes there's a tram and a rough guide how long it will take. 9.40 (524) arr 10.10 + 12' = 10.22 so that's getting to the airport (x @ Victoria) around 11.40; flight's from T3 so that's a 10' walk from the station leaving 45' to clear security and get to the gate. Any delay and I'm stuffed -

Option 2 is the (8) 9.30 - Manchester 10.30...walk to Deansgate 10.45, add 12' then 50 for the journey gets me there around 11.50 at best. So that's dodgy too.

Can't leave any earlier due to the caring commitments (long story)

So that leaves getting to Bolton station (by taxi) for 9.30, hope the emergency timetable is up and running and the train isn't packed and can get me at least as far as Deansgate for 10.40. The worry is the train might be scheduled for the airport or Piccadilly, sets off beut stops at Deansgate and/or Oxford road and goes no further, we get stuck not knowing if we will be moving or not so you lose time when you could be on a tram.

Or just taxi to the airport for £30 and lose £20 out of the day's spends.
 

TrW

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Some of the Northern staff have been really useful and empathetic. Many haven't in all honesty but that goes with any industry. it has been clear that many have been cut adrift with little to no support.

Quite a lot has been made on here about passengers who have made staff cry, which of course should be condemned, but this morning at Preston I witnessed a woman with 3 small kids break down. I should have gone over to her and said ‘Don’t worry love, you might get there eventually’.

Maybe you should have tried telling her it's no worse than it's ever been; reassure her that the fact remains she is still getting from a to b; or explain that although a bit frustrating it is actually nothing of great concern
 

RAPC

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Quite a lot has been made on here about passengers who have made staff cry, which of course should be condemned, but this morning at Preston I witnessed a woman with 3 small kids break down. I should have gone over to her and said ‘Don’t worry love, you might get there eventually’.

I feel very sorry for staff having to be at the front line at the moment and I have gone out of my way to friendly with them, especially as they are the only support we have in reality.

As for members of the public, I've seen tears and tantrums in large doses over the past two weeks. People who are going to miss flights as they can't get to the airport from Preston / Leyland etc and don't have the time, or the means to find an alternative. Mums with kids who are kicking off, needing toilets breaks, or just feeding. People missing work and getting in trouble for it. One of the ones on Tuesday I was trying to help out was an old boy getting very upset, trying to get from Oxford Road to Kirkham for a funeral from the chap who was best man at his wedding many years ago. Staff were sympathetic, but completely unable to assist in anyway.
 

Howardh

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Some of the Northern staff have been really useful and empathetic. Many haven't in all honesty but that goes with any industry. it has been clear that many have been cut adrift with little to no support.
Maybe you should have tried telling her it's no worse than it's ever been; reassure her that the fact remains she is still getting from a to b; or explain that although a bit frustrating it is actually nothing of great concern
I read elsewhere that the situation is so bad the government (yeah, what government? They are so much up Brexit's backside they haven't a clue what's falling apart around them) should declare a state of emergency in this part of the world.
I've heard worse ideas....not sure what a S.O.M entails, could the army drivers qualified to drive buses shift people from A to B???
On a slightly less frivolous mode, all this highlights how little alternatives are available between (say) Bolton and Manchester and I would like to know who to contact in order to suggest we get fast, direct buses between Bolton and Manchester + Airport as a regular feature as we don't have the trams to fall back on and not even a guided busway. Frankly, we're now cut off.
 

Bantamzen

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Thanks, I've tried the tfgm website and it says evert 12 minutes there's a tram and a rough guide how long it will take. 9.40 (524) arr 10.10 + 12' = 10.22 so that's getting to the airport (x @ Victoria) around 11.40; flight's from T3 so that's a 10' walk from the station leaving 45' to clear security and get to the gate. Any delay and I'm stuffed -

Option 2 is the (8) 9.30 - Manchester 10.30...walk to Deansgate 10.45, add 12' then 50 for the journey gets me there around 11.50 at best. So that's dodgy too.

Can't leave any earlier due to the caring commitments (long story)

So that leaves getting to Bolton station (by taxi) for 9.30, hope the emergency timetable is up and running and the train isn't packed and can get me at least as far as Deansgate for 10.40. The worry is the train might be scheduled for the airport or Piccadilly, sets off beut stops at Deansgate and/or Oxford road and goes no further, we get stuck not knowing if we will be moving or not so you lose time when you could be on a tram.

Or just taxi to the airport for £30 and lose £20 out of the day's spends.

What about getting the tram from Radcliffe to Piccadilly & getting the train from there, which will shave a few minutes off your time? A tram at 10:33 would (in theory at least) get you to the airport at 11:31, a transit of 58 minutes? This way you'll avoid the worst of the chaos around the north & west of Manchester & even if the train from Piccadilly is stuffed you should still be able to get a taxi from there to the terminal in reasonable time?
 

Howardh

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What about getting the tram from Radcliffe to Piccadilly & getting the train from there, which will shave a few minutes off your time? A tram at 10:33 would (in theory at least) get you to the airport at 11:31, a transit of 58 minutes? This way you'll avoid the worst of the chaos around the north & west of Manchester & even if the train from Piccadilly is stuffed you should still be able to get a taxi from there to the terminal in reasonable time?
I'll consider that option thanks, trains from Piccadilly to the airport are run by TPE amongst others and aren't as badly affected (anyone??) so does seem a reasonable option, although don't fancy the war-zone that is platforms 13/14!!
 

Bletchleyite

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What about getting the tram from Radcliffe to Piccadilly & getting the train from there, which will shave a few minutes off your time? A tram at 10:33 would (in theory at least) get you to the airport at 11:31, a transit of 58 minutes? This way you'll avoid the worst of the chaos around the north & west of Manchester & even if the train from Piccadilly is stuffed you should still be able to get a taxi from there to the terminal in reasonable time?

That's a good point - TPE also operate to the airport itself.

I'm not sure I wouldn't just take a taxi (minicab - cheaper!) - with flights the stakes are quite high.
 

6Gman

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Given it's currently half term I can't help feeling that a fleet of back up (road) coaches would have been good PR if nothing else.
 

scrapy

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There will be less train drivers required. Also, there are amendments to the original blockade plans. CLC trains terminating at Warrington Central, Blackpool trains terminating at Wigan, one train (instead of two) to Man Vic from Huyton and the Windermere service becoming buses.

Details on OTT/RTT
Whilst it requires less drivers actually driving trains, Lime St drivers will end up spending a lot of time in taxis. As there are not facilities for breaks at Huyton and Warrington diagrams that had Lime St breaks will have to be rejigged possibly taxiing back to Lime St for breaks. The Blackpool blockade suggests less trains doesn't always mean less drivers diagrams required.
 

Bantamzen

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I'll consider that option thanks, trains from Piccadilly to the airport are run by TPE amongst others and aren't as badly affected (anyone??) so does seem a reasonable option, although don't fancy the war-zone that is platforms 13/14!!

There have been delays on the TPE though they are slowly improving. But with fairly regular services even if they are all running late you'd have a fair chance of picking one up around the time you'll need it! P13/14 is never a great option I'll admit, but with the Liverpool blockade on it *might* be a tad quieter on there, otherwise any cabin/hold luggage can always be utilised as a battering ram!*

But at least there's a few options, you can check on the day how things are looking and mix & match to get you there in plenty of time. Good luck!

(*I do not of course recommend this ;))
 

tbtc

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I had understood the main purpose of the Chord was to remove reversing airport-bound trains from Piccadilly platforms 1-12. Perhaps the easier solution would have been to concentrate Transpennine services at Victoria, use stations west of there (Blackpool, Liverpool, Chester and beyond) as termini, and make alternative arrangements for airport connections eg change at Salford Crescent for a high-frequency airport-bound train from the Bolton corridor, which would not have been much slower than trundling round the Chord. However, instead the tail of Mancairport has been allowed to wag the dog of the entire north of England rail network.

Agreed

It really grates that the solution to crowding is automatically to run even more tiny trains.

Tiny trains cause congestion, clog the arteries and should be treated like a disease.

True.

I'm afraid you're wasting your time trying to convince Bletchleyite on this one. Despite the fact that countless surveys highlight that TPE passengers from Yorkshire (and beyond) to Manchester Airport would not use the train at all were it not for the through services they continue to insist that the solution is always a German or Swiss style timetable. And they also fail to mention that if TPE services terminated at Piccadilly instead of the Airport they would be in Piccadilly's platforms much longer in order to meet timetabling rules on turnround times for terminating services. Piccadilly simply does not have that sort of spare platform space available and it was much easier (ie cheaper, and significantly so) to double the Airport's platform count from 2 to 4 as demand for rail services has grown since the line opened. I wonder if their next suggestion will be to send TPE's Scottish services to Victoria... :rolleyes:

The average service at Manchester Airport has just over thirty passengers on board.

Given that a significant number of those passengers will be for central Manchester that means that the number travelling all the way to (say) Leeds will be a tiny number of the number crammed into a 185 over the Pennines.

But those handful of passengers seem to be the ones dictating the shape of services.

I've always thought this is one of the problems of the Greater Manchester timetable, a fixation on hourly services drives an unreliable product from a passenger perspective. Contrast this with West Yorkshire where the objective is much more often a half hourly service pattern. TfGM (and its predecessors) have always seemed much more interested in connectivity between specific station pairs, than WYCA (and its predecessors) who have been more interested in number of calls at stations.

Good points.

West Yorkshire has worked well with a hub approach at Leeds. Everywhere has a regular service to Leeds, timetables are well balanced.

If it was up to GMPTE/TfGM then (instead of a simple half hourly service on branches) we'd have an Ilkley - Leeds - Knottingley service running within ten minutes of an Ilkley - Leeds - Huddersfield service, and then nothing for fifty minutes - with the throat at Leeds in a mess because of the need to fit all of the services from one side over to the other.

Much as I know I'm mean to have some South Yorkshire/West Yorkshire rivalry, I think that Metro are probably the best PTE in the country. Many of the Manchester based problems seem to come from the maze of services that appear to be more about linking different towns with an hourly service (Bolton to Stockport, Wigan to Rochdale etc) than splitting the services into distinct groups so that timetables can be much simpler (and significantly more resilient at times of disruption!).
 

woodmally

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Why is this still a problem though? How long does refamilarisation take. People drive cars and often they drive on unfamiliar routes. However with a car there is a greater chance of getting lost. Yes I have posted on here of a train getting lost but that was due to an error with the signalperson according to someone on here. So how much "training" does a driver need? They know how to operate a train and in times of emergency have run trains on back up lines and other routes so why does it take so long to get them up to speed with this one. Besides which its not a new line after all its been there for a while just been redone.
 

Moonshot

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I think, looking longer term, that's the big concern for me. Whilst it was an arguable new timetable "blip" there probably wasn't too much to be worried about. But we're now at the end of week two and I don't think PPM on the West of the Northern Franchise has even managed to crawl to 50%. So more than 50% of services are either delayed or cancelled! Meanwhile over here in the East PPM has broadly recovered back to around 80% plus (today being an exception in West Yorkshire where it's down in the mid-60s). Whilst 80% is not good enough and down from the 90% plus that was being managed prior to May 20 it's not as catastrophic in the way that the consistently below 40% PPM has been in the West (and continues to be).

Unlike in the South East where the choice is often either take the train or try and work from home more (which isn't always practical) there are choices in the North. And I'm now increasingly concerned that even when the service does recover back to 90% or more PPM that the damage in the West is going to end up taking years and years to repair. What that will look like in terms of the Franchises finances who knows. Many people may well stick out their current season ticket but how many will renew? Most franchises are built on the rock solid season ticket income and Northern is no exception. If that collapses in the West? That could be a big black hole. That's before we consider the impacts of more people driving into major urban areas like Manchester.

No doubt there will have to be a major PR exercise once all this is sorted. paricularly North Manchester. But when the wires are finally live all the way from Blackpool to Salford Crescent and new trains are up and running , it will still be the most attractive option.
 
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