Northern's Problems in the North West

[northwichcat]

Presumably the ridiculous 7hr rule is because of the ridiculous 35hr week they work?

According to the ASLEF site the terms agreed with Northern for west side drivers are 32 hour week with 4 days worked per week, while for east side drivers it's 35 hour week with 4.2 days worked per week, with both sides being able to work up to 10 hours per day (presumably including breaks) but west side not being able to work for less than 5 hours per day: http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=3451

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are now putting together a revised timetable for tomorrow for the Liverpool area, but don't expect the times to be released until 4pm today. Is this in relation to the driver issues and multiple events across Liverpool which may affect driver availability?

Could it relate to Steve Rotheram's request that Northern revise services if Liverpool win the Champions League tonight and have a victory parade tomorrow? I recall the last time Liverpool had a Champions League victory parade TPE operated 8 car 158s in and out of Lime Street and there still weren't enough seats for everyone to sit.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sounds like a daft agreement. If it was a rostered rest day it would be extra money? Keep the extra rest days from the 8hr45 turns and work a max 7hr. Sounds like having your cake and eating it.

Certainly appears that all these related issues could do with a revamp to make them far more efficient. No wonder they've got problems.

 

[mandub]

According to the ASLEF site the terms agreed with Northern for west side drivers are 32 hour week with 4 days worked per week, while for east side drivers it's 35 hour week with 4.2 days worked per week, with both sides being able to work up to 10 hours per day (presumably including breaks) but west side not being able to work for less than 5 hours per day: http://www.aslef.org.uk/article.php?group_id=3451

West drivers don't have a 32hr week.
Think that ASLEF page is just badly formatted. I think the bits below "ASLEF charter" are ASLEF aspirations and they list what they have achieved toward those aspirations for both East and West drivers. So they want a 32hr week with Sundays inside and list that for the West that they have achieved a Sunday enhancement, but no mention of the number of hours per week worked.
As far as I know it's 35 hours.

 

[northernchris]

Could it relate to Steve Rotheram's request that Northern revise services if Liverpool win the Champions League tonight and have a victory parade tomorrow? I recall the last time Liverpool had a Champions League victory parade TPE operated 8 car 158s in and out of Lime Street and there still weren't enough seats for everyone to sit.

The news article does mention fewer services than usual running so I'm not sure if it is connected:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...-advice-for-liverpool-customers-sunday-27-may

 

[jayah]

Could it relate to Steve Rotheram's request that Northern revise services if Liverpool win the Champions League tonight and have a victory parade tomorrow? I recall the last time Liverpool had a Champions League victory parade TPE operated 8 car 158s in and out of Lime Street and there still weren't enough seats for everyone to sit.

If they win next year, a pair of 2 car Class 195/0 will suffice I am sure.

Could it relate to Steve Rotheram's request that Northern revise services if Liverpool win the Champions League tonight and have a victory parade tomorrow? I recall the last time Liverpool had a Champions League victory parade TPE operated 8 car 158s in and out of Lime Street and there still weren't enough seats for everyone to sit.

At least it is Liverpool and not Manchester or Leeds. Northern don't operate a great deal into Lime Street but TPE/EMT will no doubt have the problem that with trains from Newcastle, Norwich and Scarborough it is almost impossible to strengthen more than a couple of them.

 

[northwichcat]

West drivers don't have a 32hr week.
Think that ASLEF page is just badly formatted. I think the bits below "ASLEF charter" are ASLEF aspirations and they list what they have achieved toward those aspirations for both East and West drivers. So they want a 32hr week with Sundays inside and list that for the West that they have achieved a Sunday enhancement, but no mention of the number of hours per week worked.
As far as I know it's 35 hours.

Maybe the east drivers were on more than 35 hours, so ASLEF have said 35 hours for east side as it's moving towards their aim of 32 hours? However, if what you say about west drivers being on 35 hours is true and the ASLEF site is right that they work an average of 4 days per week, while east side work an average of 4.2 days per week then east drivers must have shorter working days than west side drivers.

 

[northwichcat]

If they win next year, a pair of 2 car Class 195/0 will suffice I am sure.

Why?

At least it is Liverpool and not Manchester or Leeds. Northern don't operate a great deal into Lime Street but TPE/EMT will no doubt have the problem that with trains from Newcastle, Norwich and Scarborough it is almost impossible to strengthen more than a couple of them.

Connections in to Merseyrail services are probably relevant as well as services to Lime Street.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At least it is Liverpool and not Manchester or Leeds. Northern don't operate a great deal into Lime Street but TPE/EMT will no doubt have the problem that with trains from Newcastle, Norwich and Scarborough it is almost impossible to strengthen more than a couple of them.

At least they got it in before the Lime St blockade starts next week.
I can't decide whether that will make things better or worse for Northern/TPE's performance over the subsequent 8 weeks!

 

[Chester1]

Does anyone k
.now how many more trains go through P13/14 at Piccadilly compared to the old timetable changes? I travel home to Warrington from Piccadilly from around 4:30 on wards and I don't think I have seen any trains actually be on time since the change. Just delays across the board and the platform being heavily crowded of passengers.

I think its gone from 8tph to 11tph with a 12th planned (taking it to capacity). I don't think its the capacity of the through platforms that is causing the problem, its knock on delays from elsewhere.

 

[Loop & Link]

Depots that sign Blackpool are: Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Liverpool(?), Manchester Victoria, Wigan.
I don’t think Piccadilly do.

Average driver’s turn on west conditions is supposed to be 8h45m or as close to this as possible.
7h training day comes from separate agreement.

One of the main issues with Lime St at the moment, is all of a sudden they have a fair bit of Blackpool work. Not counting the infrastructure changes, many traincrew lost their route knowledge Preston - Blackpool North before the line even shut! Lime St lost nearly all of its through services to Blackpool when the service was curtailed to Preston, and went over to 319’s.

There was only 1 (!) SX, 2 SO daily turns Preston-Blackpool so unsuprisingly route knowledge was lost as there wasn’t enough turns for everyone to remain competent! I know one driver in the Top Link who signs Lime St’s entire route card yet hasn’t been to Blackpool since 2016, now all of sudden there’s a lots of work up there with hardly anyone that signs it, so it’s fair to say route knowledge to Blackpool has been an issue before the line closed!

 

[geoffk]

I think its gone from 8tph to 11tph with a 12th planned (taking it to capacity). I don't think its the capacity of the through platforms that is causing the problem, its knock on delays from elsewhere.

The 12th being the Leeds - Calder Valley - Airport. There's also supposed to be a Macclesfield - Blackpool North, which will be done by extending the Piccadilly - Blackpool. Surely the signalling of platforms 13/14 allows two trains at once, provided passengers can be trained where to wait.

 

[The Planner]

I think its gone from 8tph to 11tph with a 12th planned (taking it to capacity). I don't think its the capacity of the through platforms that is causing the problem, its knock on delays from elsewhere.

Nope, the limit we can go to is 13tph between Picc and Oxford Road, 15tph between Oxford Road and Deansgate but 2 of those have to terminate at Oxford Road.

 

[js1000]

I think its gone from 8tph to 11tph with a 12th planned (taking it to capacity). I don't think its the capacity of the through platforms that is causing the problem, its knock on delays from elsewhere.

Agreed completely.

I work in Manchester and commute from Piccadilly and Oxford Road. I can tell you from experience that a lot of the problems are stemming from the bottleneck through Deansgate/Oxford Road/Piccadilly Platforms 13/14. One train delayed by 10 minutes or another stuck on platforms waiting for crew changeover screws the whole system up and has heavy knock-on delays.

It wouldn't surprise if a service of two were culled to alleviate the stress through Manchester as a temporary measure until December. The obvious one is the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport stoppers. It was a Crewe to Manchester service as it was before the timetable. However you'd have find rolling stock and crew to run the Liverpool side service and you would have an issue of the train cutting across the throat of Piccadilly. (however you would never have the problems of trains sitting on through platforms and delaying the trains behind them).

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. They tried it and it's proving a problem so they probably need to be more realistic in what can be achieved. At least this week has proved the two additional platforms at Piccadilly would help massively achieve the timetable the DfT and Network Rail want and reduce the bottleneck.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It wouldn't surprise if a service of two were culled to alleviate the stress through Manchester as a temporary measure until December. The obvious one is the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport stoppers. It was a Crewe to Manchester service as it was before the timetable. However you'd have find rolling stock and crew to run the Liverpool side service and you would have an issue of the train cutting across the throat of Piccadilly. (however you would never have the problems of trains sitting on through platforms and delaying the trains behind them).

During June and July, the Crewe-Manchester-Liverpool is split anyway because of the Lime St blockade.
It becomes Crewe-Oxford Road and Victoria-Huyton (or Lime St when there is a limited through service).
This is when TPE don't run west of Victoria.
So that should simplify things for a while.
However I can see some 2-3 minute turn-rounds at Victoria (5 minutes at Oxford Road).

 

[js1000]

During June and July, the Crewe-Manchester-Liverpool is split anyway because of the Lime St blockade.
It becomes Crewe-Oxford Road and Victoria-Huyton (or Lime St when there is a limited through service).
This is when TPE don't run west of Victoria.
So that should simplify things for a while.
However I can see some 2-3 minute turn-rounds at Victoria (5 minutes at Oxford Road).

The Lime Street blockade will bring some relief to Northern's problems no doubt. Will be interesting to see what happens to that Liverpool via Manchester to Crewe service beyond July because it's not working as a commuter service or a long distance airport link. Too often cancelled at commuter stations along the route and often late into the Airport.

 

[jayah]

The 12th being the Leeds - Calder Valley - Airport. There's also supposed to be a Macclesfield - Blackpool North, which will be done by extending the Piccadilly - Blackpool. Surely the signalling of platforms 13/14 allows two trains at once, provided passengers can be trained where to wait.

Presume they have to send something on the Ordsall Curve just to prove it wasn't money wasted.

 

[Bovverboy]

Alternatively though playing devils advocate here , if 1 person at liverpool calls in sick at the last minute , a full service between liverpool and crew will be cancelled effecting essentially 2 sets of passengers . Whereas if the liverpool driver is in but the picadilly man is sick currently you can at least operate part of the service . Of course at the moment if the Liverpool driver calls sick its still likely a full service could be cancelled unless a unit can be stepped up in mcr to operate the manc/crew part .

If you were to cover the Liverpool - Manchester section with a Liverpool crew, and the Manchester - Crewe section with a Piccadilly crew, there is a possibility (but not certainty, as you've acknowledged) that part of the service will be able to be saved, but in utilising two crews instead of one you're doubling the number of crew members who have the potential to go sick. So, overall, you're no better off, and probably worse off.

 

[Loop & Link]

There is one service which has been uncovered this week/Driver doesn’t sign the route.

ECS Allerton-Crewe to work 06:16 departure to Liverpool now the issue is that there’s then no stock for the 06:16 so that’s cancelled but there are funnily enough a Picc Driver to work it Crewe-Oxford Road & and a Lime Street Driver Oxford Road-Liverpool.

 

[Bovverboy]

So despite half the services at Blackpool North going to Piccadilly, nobody at Piccadilly signs the route? Neither Leeds nor Blackburn have any services there either. The whole operation sounds like a mess before even considering why Barrow might be involved.

Until quite recently a 185 off the Barrow circuit stabled overnight at Blackpool North. Why it should stable there rather than Preston I don't know, but it may well have been staffed by a Barrow crew. I don't think there's any reason for Barrow crews to continue to sign Blackpool, though.

 

[Bovverboy]

Northern don't operate a great deal into Lime Street but TPE/EMT will no doubt have the problem that with trains from Newcastle, Norwich and Scarborough it is almost impossible to strengthen more than a couple of them.

On the standard off-peak service Northern has eight departures/hour, London Midland two, Transpennine Express two, and VTWC one.

 

[Bovverboy]

One of the main issues with Lime St at the moment, is all of a sudden they have a fair bit of Blackpool work. Not counting the infrastructure changes, many traincrew lost their route knowledge Preston - Blackpool North before the line even shut! Lime St lost nearly all of its through services to Blackpool when the service was curtailed to Preston, and went over to 319’s.

There was only 1 (!) SX, 2 SO daily turns Preston-Blackpool so unsuprisingly route knowledge was lost as there wasn’t enough turns for everyone to remain competent! I know one driver in the Top Link who signs Lime St’s entire route card yet hasn’t been to Blackpool since 2016, now all of sudden there’s a lots of work up there with hardly anyone that signs it, so it’s fair to say route knowledge to Blackpool has been an issue before the line closed!

When the Monday to Saturday service was cut back to Preston Mon/Sat (except for two/three peak journeys, but I don't know which depots operated them) the hourly Sunday service continued to run to Blackpool. So someone, somewhere, must have retained route knowledge.

 

[B&I]

At least they got it in before the Lime St blockade starts next week.
I can't decide whether that will make things better or worse for Northern/TPE's performance over the subsequent 8 weeks!

I was thinking on Thursday that at least the strike would make what services did run more reliable. An hour of waiting at Victoria for nothing to go to Liverpool disabused me of that notion.

 

[Loop & Link]

When the Monday to Saturday service was cut back to Preston Mon/Sat (except for two/three peak journeys, but I don't know which depots operated them) the hourly Sunday service continued to run to Blackpool. So someone, somewhere, must have retained route knowledge.

As mentioned only 1 turn Mon-Fri went to Blackpool (1 trip) 2 on a Saturday, there were a 4 turns at most on a Sunday, but that’s not enough for every driver in that linkat the depot. So as mentioned, there were some drivers who lost their route knowledge before Blackpool closed.

Since it has been closed, no one from Lime St signs Blackpool anymore, hence the need for route refreshing. And there are still loads that don’t sign it even now, as 323 training was also going on.

 

[Bovverboy]

I was thinking on Thursday that at least the strike would make what services did run more reliable. An hour of waiting at Victoria for nothing to go to Liverpool disabused me of that notion.

The greatest gap I can find between successive departures for Liverpool is of 55 minutes - between 1635 (NT) and 1730 (TPE), the reason for that gap being the termination at Victoria of the intervening ex-Scarborough train. The ex-Scarborough train should have departed Victoria for Liverpool at 1656, so you can only blame NT/TPE for delaying you by 34 minutes.

 

[Bovverboy]

As mentioned only 1 turn Mon-Fri went to Blackpool (1 trip) 2 on a Saturday, there were a 4 turns at most on a Sunday, but that’s not enough for every driver in that linkat the depot.

I presume you're referring to turns which were covered by Lime Street crews, if so that's fair enough.

 

[Loop & Link]

I presume you're referring to turns which were covered by Lime Street crews, if so that's fair enough.

Yep, that’s correct!

 

[CHAPS2034]

I changed my plan to go to Preston from Saturday to Friday, in part so I could experience the new timetable on a "normal day" rather than a strike and engineering affected journey.

One of the delights of the new timetable is that I can get from CHU to Wigan without changing trains. 2W06 was 6 late away from Alderley but this was because it was waiting for the ATW late running service to pass. This is no different to the previous situation when this was an Alderley - Piccadilly shuttle. Donkey 142028 was the unit. At MCO, I was pleased to see both guard and driver waiting on the platform and after a snappy stop we were away and finally reached Wigan NW 8L. There were 2 opposite direction trains queuing up to get into the corridor at Castlefield and Water St....

Continuing to Preston, 1N84 had left LIV RT but had dropped 12 minutes by WGN - looks like it was held up by a late running 319 all-shack stopper ahead. The unit on this was solo 142003 rather than a pathed 319 and it was full with some standing although I managed to find a seat. We arrived 18L at Preston after some signal checks and the train swiftly left for BPN.

My journey hadn't been bad considering what has been going on. Preston station was busy - lots of delays and cancellations. The PA there was going full time and I guess that there wasn't a period longer than 30 seconds in the 30 minutes I was there when it wasn't saying something - mainly "We are sorry...." as Northern schedules were mostly up the spout. There were a number of perplexed looking Northern train crew hanging around looking for their units and conversely a 319 hanging around as there was no crew...However, there were loads of staff on the platforms helping passengers out.

Next was down the WCML to Warrington for a pub visit and then it was back to Warrington Central to get back to CHU. RTT indicated that there were a few trains back to Manchester - the very late 1H42 (52L) being the first so I boarded that (156429) with the guard announcing here and at Birchwood that this was not the all shacks stopper originally due around the same time. I was a bit worried when we pulled into Platform 3 at MCO where trains are often abandoned. But we carried on after a short stop.

At Piccadilly, the by now usual chaos and conflicting information was on display. On one all-departures board, the Alderley Edge train running nearly 40 late was shown as destination Stockport, so indicating an early termination; on another board it was not shown at all. In the end it never made Piccadilly as it was terminated at Oxford Rd.

The 1901 Crewe was shown as delayed with a sole 319 in the platform with the PIS on the platform showing Empty to Depot. It was eventually caped, but not before I cut my losses, caught a Pendolino to Stockport and then a bus home - no problem if you have an TfGM old gits pass.

So looking at MAN-CHU last night is a microcosm of all that is going wrong. The xx37 is ex Wigan and its timekeeping has been appalling all week as it gets stuck coming down the Castlefield corridor. The rest of the departures start at MAN.

• 1637 dep MAN 40L arr CHU 41L (was 2L at the Crescent and 37L at MCO!)
• 1644 dep MAN 1L arr CHU 1L
• 1701 dep MAN RT arr CHU RT
• 1721 dep MAN 1L arr CHU 5L
• 1737 dep MAN 15L arr CHU 22 late (was RT at the Crescent)
• 1744 dep MAN 4L arr CHU 2L
• 1801 dep MAN RT arr CHU 4L
• 1837 - cancelled - terminated at MCO when running 42L
• 1844 dep MAN 8L arr CHU 4L,
• 1901 - cancelled throughout due to a decision by the train operating company
• 1937 dep MAN 12L after being 3L at Deansgate, arr CHU 15L
• 1944 dep MAN 25L, arr 24L at CHU (and terminated at MAC).
• 2001 dep MAN 21L arr CHU 22L
• 2037 cancelled throughout from Wigan to Alderley
• 2044 dep MAN RT 1 late at CHU - shock horror
• 2101 dep MAN 4L 3 late at CHU

This is absolutely unacceptable and is bound to drive people off the rails and back into their cars. Teething troubles according to Grayling - what an idiot. Hopefully Burham will be dragging him up here to see the chaos in all its glory, but I'm not holding my breath.

I wonder what next week will bring?

CW

 

[Merseysider]

For what it’s worth, I’ve sent Northern a claim for a reduction in price under the CRA, bypassing Delay Repay, as most of my intended trains out and back have been cancelled every day this week.

Anyone else with a season ticket might as well.

 

[jamesst]

Lots of cancellations, short forming and alterations in and out of Liverpool Lime Street today...