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Northern's Problems in the North West

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LNW-GW Joint

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The media coverage today has been very disappointing.
The railway is apparently in meltdown because of the new timetable, but only GTR services are discussed.
The BBC are all over the impact on London commuters - but not a mention of the problems at Northern (with or without a new timetable).
Maybe it will change tomorrow when the regular journalists are back at work.
 
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transmanche

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The media coverage today has been very disappointing.
The railway is apparently in meltdown because of the new timetable, but only GTR services are discussed.
Was there major disruption on Sunday because of the new timetable, outside of the GTR network? (And by major disruption, I mean in the order of cancelling five services in a row.)
 

theironroad

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Was there major disruption on Sunday because of the new timetable, outside of the GTR network? (And by major disruption, I mean in the order of cancelling five services in a row.)

Not sure about cancelling 5 trains in a row, but two major train failures on ecml have caused havoc for Anglo-scottish train today, hence VTEC in bottom place on ppm today.
 

Bertie the bus

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Was there major disruption on Sunday because of the new timetable, outside of the GTR network? (And by major disruption, I mean in the order of cancelling five services in a row.)
I would describe 35% of services between Preston and Blackpool being cancelled as major disruption. 35% of the revised timetable which was only published a couple of days ago for a major seaside resort on a warm, sunny, May weekend.

It didn't even get a mention on the BBC NW news.
 

theironroad

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Gtr is going to get the focus partly because of the size of the franchise and the fact that recent publicity to passengers has said that EVERY train time is changing and it's the biggest shake up since the 1970s , so media interest is high and this being the UK media, they're not cheering it in hoping for a success story.
 

muz379

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Ok obviously Im unaware of the finer minutiae of that particular dispute but as it’s merely one of several similar happenings at various TOCs over recent years, my point about the dubiousness of seemingly endless concessions to certain unions merely to keep a significantly taxpayer funded public service operational , still stands up to scrutiny.
What dispute ?

Very true which is why both the TOCs and the unions need to get together and sort issues like RDW and Sunday work. The TOCs need to accept that they will need to take on more staff which will cost them more and the unions need to accept that some of the practices like volunteering for Sunday's (which really belong in another era when driver's were very poorly paid and had to work Sunday's to make up a decent wage) need to change. Either that or TOCs need to bite the bullet and start employing new staff on new contracts as happens in many other industries.

I think there will probably be a need for a limited amount of volunteering for shifts on the railway and many staff are more than willing to take up the offer of some extra pay. However, relying a whole train service on volunteers is foolhardy in the extreme. Northern today started with an expansion of its Sunday services, how is this sustainable using a volunteer workforce?
I repeat once again perhaps because you missed the end of my post . The Unions in this case aspire for Sunday to be inside the week because it means more members .

As far as I am aware in this case Aslef reps had already put together a proposal for Sundays inside the working week as well as a harmonization deal . This was rejected flatly by the company as too costly . How the Union need to accept anything in this case is beyond me . They have actually attempted to facilitate bringing Sunday inside the week .

There are cost benefits to a TOC of keeping Sunday outside the week and relying on staff working it as overtime . There needs to be a cost benefit analysis between the financial benefits and the risk that occasionally there might be disruption because of the reliance on overtime to cover them . Ironically at the moment with RDW being unavailable It is more likely that there will be more Drivers willing to come in for a Sunday .

I'd propose this. All new staff to work Sunday every week for the foreseeable future unless for actual religious reasons (i.e. you *actually* attend Church) or unless booking annual leave (to accommodate family events, booking of single Sundays could be permitted). It'll then filter through.

If you know that's what you're getting when you apply, if you don't like it don't apply. Working for the railway is so popular they'll still get more than enough applicants.


Train crew could not work Sunday every week on the basis of the current rest day pattern . If you employed staff on a different rest day pattern & other T's &C'c then you would cause a massive row over who should be paid more , a different set of T's & C's would just introduce more complexity and take up more time collective bargaining . Employing train crew on different T's & C's at a TOC which already has 3 sets which need harmonization as a franchise requirement is frankly not a sensible proposal . And for reasons highlighted already is not going to happen .

Given the vast timescales for the 'new' T's & C's to become those the majority of crew are employed on a better solution is to engage the already established collective bargaining machinery and negotiate openly with the union to bring Sunday inside the working week and in this case look at a harmonization deal at the same time .
And RDW is not an entitlement so it (and overtime generally) should be phased out except in cases of disruption - i.e. overtime should never be used to cover a planned shift, only where disruption has occurred, be that delays in excess of expected, or be that sickness in excess of expected. If nothing else it's less safe than staff being expected to take their rest days - they will be more tired.

Overtime is routinely used to cover planned shifts , if there was a removal of the ability to use overtime to extend jobs and mark people spare to longer jobs the disruption would be untold .

RDW should only be used to cover training or off train briefing IMO , that should be the only reason that a more than reasonable number of drivers need to be released at once .

Overtime should only be used on an impromptu basis to cover short notice disruption whist working back to your depot or to complete report forms/be debriefed following an incident .

Unfortunately both of those would require proper staffing levels . As I have already said above there is a cost benefit to relying on overtime and RDW . And some of the fault for this lies at the door of the DFT for allowing franchises to be let on the basis of an inadequate complement .



Surely for an operator as large as Northern (and with as many depots as Northern) such an email would be needed for different shift managers to understand what they can cover for other depots? I would have thought that your description of the order of events is a bit out, and that this email is probably earlier in the process than you describe.

My description was not in as much detail as it should be . But the email is towards the end of the process given it was sent after 9 pm for services the following day . Shift managers already know through experience what other shift managers can provide cross cover and over which routes they can provide it so throughout the previous day when the following days train plan is being worked on shift managers who can provide cross cover for each other will already have been in dialogue .
 
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Solent&Wessex

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It's 0655 and Northern have already listed 43 Full or Part Cancellations for this morning's peak, vast majority due to a shortage of train drivers, although the odd one due to a shortage of train carriages. Affecting the whole network with driver shortages in Hull and Leeds causing problems getting units off depots and into service.
 

B&I

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It's 0655 and Northern have already listed 43 Full or Part Cancellations for this morning's peak, vast majority due to a shortage of train drivers, although the odd one due to a shortage of train carriages. Affecting the whole network with driver shortages in Hull and Leeds causing problems getting units off depots and into service.


None of which could have been announced in advance, according to certain people on here. Oh my aching sides
 

B&I

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Ok obviously Im unaware of the finer minutiae of that particular dispute but as it’s merely one of several similar happenings at various TOCs over recent years, my point about the dubiousness of seemingly endless concessions to certain unions merely to keep a significantly taxpayer funded public service operational , still stands up to scrutiny.


Translation: I haven't the slightest idea what is happening, but because I suffer from paranoia about trade unions, I will blame them for it, in the same way I blame them for everything else
 

B&I

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Overtime is routinely used to cover planned shifts , if there was a removal of the ability to use overtime to extend jobs and mark people spare to longer jobs the disruption would be untold .

RDW should only be used to cover training or off train briefing IMO , that should be the only reason that a more than reasonable number of drivers need to be released at once .

Overtime should only be used on an impromptu basis to cover short notice disruption whist working back to your depot or to complete report forms/be debriefed following an incident .

Unfortunately both of those would require proper staffing levels . As I have already said above there is a cost benefit to relying on overtime and RDW . And some of the fault for this lies at the door of the DFT for allowing franchises to be let on the basis of an inadequate complement .


In a way I suppose Northern can only be blamed as much as any other country exploiting the soft touch which is public services in Britain. The ultimate blame lies with the DfT setting up the perverse incentives whicj encourage cheapness over providing a reliable service. If thid was a genuine private market, Northern would start to suffer from loss of custom due to their poor product. However, they won't, because the government guarantees their income.while continuing to drivel on about private sector efficiency.
 

Sheepy1209

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I would describe 35% of services between Preston and Blackpool being cancelled as major disruption. 35% of the revised timetable which was only published a couple of days ago for a major seaside resort on a warm, sunny, May weekend.

It didn't even get a mention on the BBC NW news.

Particularly annoying for me is that most of the complaints on the BBC haven't been about cancellations - it's people complaining because of the changes themselves and the impact on their lives. They should try commuting from a town the size of Blackpool that's had no train service, or one that they can't rely on, for the best part of six months!
 

driver_m

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Ok obviously Im unaware of the finer minutiae of that particular dispute but as it’s merely one of several similar happenings at various TOCs over recent years, my point about the dubiousness of seemingly endless concessions to certain unions merely to keep a significantly taxpayer funded public service operational , still stands up to scrutiny.

So basically, what you're saying is, "I'm wrong, but I'll be damned if I change my anti-union prejudices" . You'll see no mention of a union organised "dispute" as you put it, because there wasn't one .As you'll be aware, you need a ballot result first before anything like that can happen. So if you'd like to furnish us with the details of the 'dispute' then go ahead. I look forward to your reply.
 

skifans

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Starmill

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BBC News have reported on Northern:
Passengers in the north of England are also reporting delays and cancellations as rail routes covered by Northern, which operates services across the north from Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield and Newcastle, saw train times and stopping patterns change from Sunday.

Third paragraph:
I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Great Northern, Southern, Thameslink and Northern trains cancelled and delayed - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44194146
 

Bletchleyite

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Friends are reporting that the entire service has basically collapsed and that almost everyone has given up.

Arriva need to suffer serious consequences for this entirely foreseeable problem. I encourage the claiming of as much Delay Repay as feasible, but equally this is bad enough that they surely have to be in breach of their franchise agreement and therefore liable to much heftier financial penalty.
 

Bovverboy

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5 trains Chorley to Manchester canceled in a row: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt There won't have been any trains between 0600 and 0930 - did anywhere in London get that bad?

What you're saying isn't quite correct, since there were trains from Chorley to Manchester Victoria at 0619 (scheduled time 0618) and 0748 (scheduled time 0720). But of the first twenty-eight trains due to depart Chorley this morning, seventeen were cancelled, which is bad, and you're right about five in a row to Piccadilly being cancelled. The following one was terminated at Oxford Road, which probably wouldn't have been anything like as big a problem as getting on it in the first place.
 

theironroad

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Friends are reporting that the entire service has basically collapsed and that almost everyone has given up.

Arriva need to suffer serious consequences for this entirely foreseeable problem. I encourage the claiming of as much Delay Repay as feasible, but equally this is bad enough that they surely have to be in breach of their franchise agreement and therefore liable to much heftier financial penalty.
(My bold highlighting)

Another overreaction , while the current PPM for either franchise isn't great and there are route variations, it's not exactly 'basically collapsed'

68% current PPM for Northern and
76% current PPM for GTR
 

al78

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Particularly annoying for me is that most of the complaints on the BBC haven't been about cancellations - it's people complaining because of the changes themselves and the impact on their lives. They should try commuting from a town the size of Blackpool that's had no train service, or one that they can't rely on, for the best part of six months!

So no-one should ever complain about anything if someone else is suffering more?
 

Bertie the bus

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(My bold highlighting)

Another overreaction , while the current PPM for either franchise isn't great and there are route variations, it's not exactly 'basically collapsed'

68% current PPM for Northern and
76% current PPM for GTR
Before calling it an overreaction you would need to know where his friends are. The service between Manchester and Preston via both Wigan and Bolton has been almost non-existent. Stats for an entire franchise don't tell the story of individual lines.
 

Bletchleyite

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Before calling it an overreaction you would need to know where his friends are. The service between Manchester and Preston via both Wigan and Bolton has been almost non-existent. Stats for an entire franchise don't tell the story of individual lines.

One is at Chorley and the other at Heaton Chapel going south, both have had a lack of service for around two hours this morning. That in my book is total collapse.
 

47802

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(My bold highlighting)

Another overreaction , while the current PPM for either franchise isn't great and there are route variations, it's not exactly 'basically collapsed'

68% current PPM for Northern and
76% current PPM for GTR

I AM QUITE FRANKLY ENRAGED BY YOUR COMMENT, DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE MISARY THAT CAUSES TO THE DAILY LIVES OF COMMUTERS caused by an unreliable train service.

Quite frankly the situation in the north west is an absolute disgrace which of course has been going on for weeks before the new timetable. As far as I am concerned Arriva should be stripped of the Franchise with immediate effect, not that will happen of course and no I don't think its an over reaction. The fundamental problem is that the penalties for failure to provide a train service are far too lenient, added to which both this and the TPE timetable should have been suspended until Electrification completion and both Northern and TPE get more stock and more driver training.
 
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js1000

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Shambles.

Hoards of Northern Rail drivers stranded at Oxford Road an hour, looking at screens perplexed.

Clearly this timetable is too ambitious and too heavily focused towards long distance services, hence why there is a shortage of drivers & staff from delays.

Feels as if Northern have undone 25 years of hard work following the shambles that was British Rail in one day.

I imagine their accountants are crying at their screens just thinking about the amount of Delay Repay claims coming their way. Also wouldn't surprise me if an emergency timetable comes in soon which reverts some of the timetable changes made to ease pressure.

What a mess.
 

Sheepy1209

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You have missed my point - the BBC chose to report on those changes as if they came as a surprise, while the growing chaos in the North was ignored. I have every sympathy with London commuters even when things are going well, but there is a huge amount of unplanned disruption that's happening North AND south.
So no-one should ever complain about anything if someone else is suffering more?
 

B&I

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Things must be bad. No-one has been on yet this morning to argue that this somehow isn't the fault of Northern's management
 

Rail Blues

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In a way I suppose Northern can only be blamed as much as any other country exploiting the soft touch which is public services in Britain. The ultimate blame lies with the DfT setting up the perverse incentives whicj encourage cheapness over providing a reliable service. If thid was a genuine private market, Northern would start to suffer from loss of custom due to their poor product. However, they won't, because the government guarantees their income.while continuing to drivel on about private sector efficiency.

And because they aren't operating in a free market, for the customers at least, they have bought a near monopoly over most rail services in their area. Privitisation is a result of an evidence free Tory mantra that the private sector can run everything better and more efficiently than the public sector, when it comes to railways, we've had proof yet again in the past week that this is patent nonsense.
 

philjo

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I see that several Oxenholme to Windermere trains are cancelled again. Is this likely to be a regular feature for a while?

I am travelling to Windermere on Friday so would need to use the 11:18 as I will be met at Windermere station.
I didn't see any mention on the Northern site of a replacement bus. Is there a replacement bus in operation to cover the cancellations?
 

northwichcat

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I am travelling to Windermere on Friday so would need to use the 11:18 as I will be met at Windermere station.
I didn't see any mention on the Northern site of a replacement bus. Is there a replacement bus in operation to cover the cancellations?

It used to be if there was over 2 hour or more between a cancelled service and the next one a replacement bus was arranged but Northern don't always seem to have been bothering to do that recently.
 

northwichcat

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Things must be bad. No-one has been on yet this morning to argue that this somehow isn't the fault of Northern's management

In the circumstances management were presented with they should have tried to get a rest day agreement reinstated with ASLEF by today and also should have tried to keep the number of staff on annual leave this week low, so that they were able to work around 'teething problems.'
 
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