Northern's Problems in the North West

[andyj158]

The Stalybridge to Huddersfield line Northern stoppers have been suffering a lot too recently.

On my way back from a work meeting via Huddersfield on the 24th, the 17:15 left early after turfing everyone for intermediate stations off, with the Guard assuring two ladies the 17:15 would be running, only for it to show cancelled shortly after. A train then came in on a Stalybridge service but had to return not in public use do because there wasn't a guard available. Transpennie station staff who were obviously annoyed at Northern handling of the situation thus far, managed to get the 17:45 Northern service which usually misses out Greenfield and Mossley to call all stations. This eventually left at 18:10 (ish) with Transpennie staff really encouraging passengers to claim delay repay and complain in writing to Northern.

Yesterday the majority of late afternoon to evening Northern services on the route were cancelled (driver shortage) with buses eventually being brought in to fill in for cancelled trains.

Then on my journey in today, the Northern guard on the early morning services (6am ish) which was full and standing said that on his next trip in the same direction he expects the service to have to leave people behind. He said that when the see the 2 coach train they have been given and call control to advise of the serious overcrowding and inability to get to the doors, control just say "do your best". He put it down to Northern promising all these extra services but not having enough stock to cover it.

 

[Bevan Price]

I can't really divulge it on here. It' s not a question of anyone being unreasonable. The RDW agreement ended and that was it. Up until recently northern ran for many years without RDW agreement. So it can be done without the need for them

Each TOC ought to be required to employ enough staff never normally to need RDW. (The only exception being abnormally high levels of sickness during something like a bad flu epidemic.)

 

[IanXC]

Each TOC ought to be required to employ enough staff never normally to need RDW. (The only exception being abnormally high levels of sickness during something like a bad flu epidemic.)

Whereas quite the opposite is true - the DfT have specific numbers set out for how many crew/employees franchises can have, particularly at hand back of the franchise.

 

[northernchris]

It's very likely Northern is being protected from the extra costs of delays to introducing new services, because of NR's infrastructure delays.
For instance the class 769 programme is probably being fully funded by DfT.
Northern can't be penalised for delays over the Blackpool upgrade, or the need to use diesels via Bolton for up to a year longer than expected (and consequent issues elsewhere).
It's probably very difficult to work out what issues are caused by the TOC's own management failures and those caused by external factors.
You'd also expect Transport for the North (TfN) to start being more visible in local franchise management now they have the powers, but I think they are still in transition mode with DfT.
There's certainly a PR vacuum at the moment.

There have been a few issues which seem to have hit Northern at once, and whilst some things they can't be blamed for would it not have been easier if the Blackpool line remained fully closed to allow crew to be trained. Out of interest, who will be picking up the bill for the disruption caused by crew unable to reach Preston in time to work their services?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Each TOC ought to be required to employ enough staff never normally to need RDW. (The only exception being abnormally high levels of sickness during something like a bad flu epidemic.)

Whereas quite the opposite is true - the DfT have specific numbers set out for how many crew/employees franchises can have, particularly at hand back of the franchise.

This is the key issue. As jcollins regularly reminds us all franchises have a cap on staff pay budgets as part of the franchise agreement though the precise numbers are redacted. Anyone who thinks seriously about it will know that when you are introducing electrification and/or new rolling stock there will be a training period when the numbers of traincrew required to maintain the service will temporarily be higher than normal, say about 12-18 months. It is obvious from previous experience with Thameslink (under FCC) and more recently GWR that the DfT does not allow for this but prefers to assume that Rest Day Working will cover the shortfall. However for that to work out requires good IR: this is sadly lacking at many TOCs and certainly not helped by the DfT's current push for DOO nor by Northern's apparent reluctance to include driving cabs as part of the ongoing unit refurbishment programme. Yes the Network Rail delays on electrification have made things worse but had staffing levels been boosted then the size of the problem would undoubtedly be smaller. My suspicion is that we are looking at late 2019/early 2020 before things settle down at Northern.

All this is a very good argument for resisting full nationalisation: politicians and civil servants make for very poor decision makers in such areas but they rarely think beyond the date of the next general election. Effective railway planning and management requires much longer timescales.

 

[childwallblues]

Blackpool Depot one of the worst affected with the current shortages, one Blackpool job, 11:03 Wigan-Lime St/12:01 return is caped almost daily as a result.

And as mentioned earlier, the traincrew dockets are a mess, traincrew shown to travel pass on services that don’t exist, resulting in delayed starts at Preston as traincrew need taxiing from Blackpool.

e.g: Traincrew are shown to book on at 11:05 to work the 11:20 Blackpool N-Man Vic, service obviously starts at Preston at 11:50, late start inevitable as by the time traincrew book on (10 mins + walking time) and get taxied to Preston, it’s not going to happen!

Isn't rather stupid that BPN drivers are working local services from Wigan to Liverpool when they have their own crew depots?

 

[janb]

For the second day in a row no trains all day on the Lakes line.
http://www.journeycheck.com/northern/

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is the key issue. As jcollins regularly reminds us all franchises have a cap on staff pay budgets as part of the franchise agreement though the precise numbers are redacted. Anyone who thinks seriously about it will know that when you are introducing electrification and/or new rolling stock there will be a training period when the numbers of traincrew required to maintain the service will temporarily be higher than normal, say about 12-18 months. It is obvious from previous experience with Thameslink (under FCC) and more recently GWR that the DfT does not allow for this but prefers to assume that Rest Day Working will cover the shortfall. However for that to work out requires good IR: this is sadly lacking at many TOCs and certainly not helped by the DfT's current push for DOO nor by Northern's apparent reluctance to include driving cabs as part of the ongoing unit refurbishment programme. Yes the Network Rail delays on electrification have made things worse but had staffing levels been boosted then the size of the problem would undoubtedly be smaller. My suspicion is that we are looking at late 2019/early 2020 before things settle down at Northern.

All this is a very good argument for resisting full nationalisation: politicians and civil servants make for very poor decision makers in such areas but they rarely think beyond the date of the next general election. Effective railway planning and management requires much longer timescales.

That’s just the standard, tedious nonsense about how everything is everybody else’s fault but the TOC’s. But, of course, if anything good happens that is entirely down to the TOC.

 

[Ianno87]

Whereas quite the opposite is true - the DfT have specific numbers set out for how many crew/employees franchises can have, particularly at hand back of the franchise.

Presumably that's to guard against anti-competitive practices? i.e. stopping an outgoing franchise holder deliberately swelling the crew resource base towards the end of franchise thereby imposing a cost burden onto the next franchise holder?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Are you Maggie in disguise !

I often disagree with you, but here you took the words out of my mouth.

 

[Llama]

Northern's Twitter page is full of excuses for the cancellations and delays across the north west citing that the three week delay in handing back Kirkham-BPN is causing the issues. That doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The original plan was for the line to be handed back in March and then a full service run. If they are blaming poor performance on delays to driver training (guards are only having video and paperwork briefings) yet they can't cope with running the reduced service of one train per hour, I would be asking what their strategy was for the original plan of a full service from March?
This current disruption was entirely avoidable even without driver rest-day working.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Presumably that's to guard against anti-competitive practices? i.e. stopping an outgoing franchise holder deliberately swelling the crew resource base towards the end of franchise thereby imposing a cost burden onto the next franchise holder?

The main point is if the number is redacted the people using it as an excuse for poor TOC management have absolutely no idea if the TOC is anywhere near this maximum number. It's just some mystery number.

 

[6Gman]

All this is a very good argument for resisting full nationalisation: politicians and civil servants make for very poor decision makers in such areas but they rarely think beyond the date of the next general election. Effective railway planning and management requires much longer timescales.

On the other hand you could argue that British Rail was better able to engage in long-term planning (e.g. major electrification and its implications) than TOCs on short-term franchises. A unified system would also be better able to switch resources - using Crewe TC to cover Preston work was a lot easier under BR than using VTWC men to cover NR work!

 

[Tetchytyke]

All this is a very good argument for resisting full nationalisation: politicians and civil servants make for very poor decision makers in such areas but they rarely think beyond the date of the next general election. Effective railway planning and management requires much longer timescales.

I'd say it was an argument FOR full nationalisation. Politicians and civil servants make poor decision makers because of their short-termism, true, but a nationalised industry takes the micro-management away from the politicians and civil servants. A big part of the problem at the moment is the short-termism, with both franchises and in Government. That, and the fact that Government can blame the TOCs for all the failures and insulate themselves from criticism.

You wouldn't have had a scandalous waste of money like the IEP- a massively overpriced train designed by committee- under BR, that's for certain.

But getting back to the issue. Short-forms due to lack of stock are not Northern's fault, but perhaps they'd have been better off with a gradual transfer to electric traction rather than the big bang. But cancellations due to lack of staff IS Northern's fault. If the electrification had been completed the lack of staff would have been more, not less, pronounced: more drivers and guards would need to be off route and traction learning, causing a bigger shortfall in staff.

 

[northwichcat]

You wouldn't have had a scandalous waste of money like the IEP- a massively overpriced train designed by committee- under BR, that's for certain.

You'd end up with a small number of prototypes being built, entering passenger service for a few years then being withdrawn like with the APTs, 210s and 151s under BR.

 

[Red Devil]

There seems no urgency to resolve this for all Northerns platitudes on their Twitter feed. There' s an increase in Sunday services coming shortly. Heaven knows how they will fulfil those. They can't cover the ones now and they rejected Sunday's inside for West side crew as being unaffordable for them.

 

[td97]

Their regional director hasn't taken to the customer complaints very well
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-news/northern-rail-boss-twitter-row-14583027

The boss of Northern Rail has come under fire for ‘aggressive tweets’ in which he tells passengers they’re blocked, and belittles their failure to ‘grasp the basics’.

Amid months of strike action, delays and overcrowding, Liam Sumpter often has to deal with complaints on social media.

In many of his responses on his account @nettlecroft, Mr Sumpter, the Arriva Rail North director, explains the circumstances and background.

However, the M.E.N has received complaints regarding his replies in some cases.

Northern say that the boss ‘chooses to engage directly with customers’ and deals with ‘criticism and tough topics’, but Mr Sumpter’s account has since been made private.

One example came after GM Mayor Andy Burnham tweeted that he would be looking into a number of complaints of ‘poor service’ from the operator.

When a passenger informed Mr Burnham that Mr Sumpter never replied, Mr Sumpter tweeted at him: “Not to yours Simon as they’re pretty much nonsense and never ask a sensible question. So...I’ll just block you to save us both time. See Ya.”

And during a Twitter row over operator profits and funding, he told a passenger: “As for profit and subsidy, I’m sorry to say your grasp of the basics is so, so limited that you should probably go and research it if you want to understand it better.”

He also wrote he would block another follower ‘so I don’t stumble across his vile idiocy again’.

Passenger Mike Smith, who commutes on the Bolton line, which has been plagued with overcrowding issues, has accused Mr Sumpter of ‘taking Northern’s customer service backwards’.

He said: “His aggressive and condescending nature when communicating with customers is frankly unacceptable.

“Like many customers, I am having to endure a terrible service at the moment.

“This has been the case for the past three months, with endless cancellations across Greater Manchester, not to mention a major downgrading of the timetable on many routes from May.

“Customers’ patience is being tested to the limit due to this, so do you honestly believe that in his position as a director of the company, Mr Sumpter is truly representing Northern in the best light by being rude and argumentative with paying customers when engaging with them on Twitter?”

He added: “I am sure if station staff spoke to people in this way, it wouldn’t be tolerated.”

A Northern spokesman said: “Twitter is an excellent platform for customers to ask questions and share their frustrations with companies and brands. Rather than rely on the corporate Twitter handle, Liam chooses to engage directly with customers, making it clear in his profile that the views are his own.

“Through Q&As, videos and responding to enquiries and criticism directly, he deals with some of the tough topics such as strike action, disruption and delays. This openness is appreciated by many and these two examples are isolated and does not reflect the positive interactions he has with customers.

"We have made Liam aware of the feedback. As his account is not managed 24/7 we would encourage customers to tweet @northernassist who are well placed to handle most enquiries.”

But after the M.E.N contacted Northern about the complaints, Mr Sumpter’s Twitter account was made private.

Over the last year, Northern services have been blighted by strike action as staff dispute plans for driver-only trains.

 

[B&I]

Private companies will always run rings round civil servants, it's the nature of the beast.

If the civil servants were good enough, THEY would be out there making shed loads of money for themselves.

It should be fairly easy to make money when you have substantial amounts of public subsidy paid to you to provide a privatised service. Hardly a great advertisement for thrusting feee market entrepreneurialism

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly the same thing happened with GWR's Mark Hopwood - he became a target for abusive complaints and smear campaigns and so took his account private. I think I still follow him as he didn't delete existing followers, but it did work to tone it all down a bit.

One side of me thinks it's refreshing honesty when compared with Alex Hynes bluster and waffle.

 

[transmanche]

All this is a very good argument for resisting full nationalisation: politicians and civil servants make for very poor decision makers in such areas but they rarely think beyond the date of the next general election. Effective railway planning and management requires much longer timescales.

However, the (somewhat ironic) situation we have now under private sector operation is that the DfT (i.e. politicians and civil servants) has far more influence on the day-to-day running than it ever did under British Rail. (Decisions that today are taken by the DfT, were in the past taken by BR without the need to refer to civil servants or politicians.)

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's response and Andy Burnham's response to their response: https://twitter.com/MayorofGM/status/989892449601499136 Unfortunately in jpg format so can't be copied and pasted - in short Northern are saying it's all Network Rail's fault for not reopening Blackpool to Preston on schedule meaning driver training can't happen without cancellations due to driver shortages. Burnham's response asks for better communication and asks how is a repeat of this going to be avoided when electrification of the Bolton line is completed.

 

[The_Engineer]

asks how is a repeat of this going to be avoided when electrification of the Bolton line is completed.

I would expect there to be little driver training needed for the actual Manchester - Bolton - Preston route, since it is essentially unchanged in track and signalling layout, and trains will keep running to retain route knowledge.

However, I wonder what effect the staff training on the new diesel and electric fleets will have on train cancelled due to staff shortages, once these are delivered?? I can foresee this being a bigger problem.

 

[northwichcat]

I would expect there to be little driver training needed for the actual Manchester - Bolton - Preston route, since it is essentially unchanged in track and signalling layout, and trains will keep running to retain route knowledge.

However, I wonder what effect the staff training on the new diesel and electric fleets will have on train cancelled due to staff shortages, once these are delivered?? I can foresee this being a bigger problem.

Given the delays in electrifying Manchester-Bolton-Preston they'll probably be at least one 331 available for driver training by the time the wires are completed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The route isn't going to radically change when the wires go live.
In fact virtually all the track and signalling alterations have been done in earlier blockades.
Northern should also have plenty of 319-trained drivers by then, if they are going to be operating Manchester/Liverpool-Blackpool via Wigan soon.
New stock might present more problems though (includes TPE as well as Northern).

 

[Buspilot]

Try having to use the Blackpool North trains at varing times throughout a week before making comments.

It is an absolute shambles. The one hour frequency sometimes becoming three hourly after short notice cancelations. Four coach multipule units being on training duties when the passenger service has just two coaches. Drivers for training at Preston with no trains to drive. Training units blocking platfrorms at Preston with no drivers for training to move them. Blackpool carriage sidings not finished, no trains stabled there. Virgin train arrives from Euston in an afternoon, then goes ecs to depot in Midlands. Starts from Preston to Euston every morning. Trains for passenger services , Blackpool North/Manchester Airport, with no working toilets. The one per hour Manchester Airport service terminated at Manchester Piccadilly and passengers advised to catch Metrolink (which takes an hour) to get to the airport. No Northern staff available to assist at Piccadilly although said to be on detraining. There are several units stabled at Preston in the RES platforms during the day. Obviously in the wrong place from what has been said about cancelations and short forming.

 

[theironroad]

While I've never seen Liam Sumpter's Twitter feed, he can't have been surprised that he'd get a roasting. Fair play for him trying to engage directly with passengers, but I'm not sure twitter is the place to do it. Having seen the amount of abuse, often from faceless anonymous accounts that TOC Twitter help desk feeds receive, I'm surprised that TOCs still think it's a manageable operation.

 

[The_Engineer]

Try having to use the Blackpool North trains at varing times throughout a week before making comments.

I think that about every poster on here agrees that it's an absolute shambles on Blackpool - Manchester at the moment.

There are several units stabled at Preston in the RES platforms during the day. Obviously in the wrong place from what has been said about cancelations and short forming.

Hmm.... probably allocated to Blackpool North driver training turns that were not running that day. I monitor the route on RTT daily and see that often only one or two of the five daily training diagrams are being used..... Cold comfort for you, I know.

 

[northwichcat]

While I've never seen Liam Sumpter's Twitter feed, he can't have been surprised that he'd get a roasting. Fair play for him trying to engage directly with passengers, but I'm not sure twitter is the place to do it. Having seen the amount of abuse, often from faceless anonymous accounts that TOC Twitter help desk feeds receive, I'm surprised that TOCs still think it's a manageable operation.

Does he respond to problems from his own Twitter feed? He did a Q and A where he responded to questions with a specific hashtag from the @northernassist account and signed off tweets with LS so you knew which ones he was responding to, if that's what you're thinking of.

 

[Kendalian]

Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse, tonight there was a signal failure between Bolton and Preston. All peak trains cancelled northbound from 5.30 to 7.30 apparently. I eventually left Victoria at 7.30 on delayed 7.18 having originally left on the 5.23 as far as Salford Crescent then taken back to Victoria.
It's been a dreadful week on Manchester-Preston-Blackpool

 

[theironroad]

Does he respond to problems from his own Twitter feed? He did a Q and A where he responded to questions with a specific hashtag from the @northernassist account and signed off tweets with LS so you knew which ones he was responding to, if that's what you're thinking of.

I'm just going from the MEN article linked in post #77 where Northern said that Liam chose to interact with customers directly on his own account @nettlecroft rather than via Northern's corporate account.