Northern's Problems in the North West

[Sheepy1209]

My employer recently opened a shiny new office in the centre of Manchester near Oxford Road, moving many of the staff from Blackpool - so the tales of woe are never-ending. We also have a big office in Leeds, and word's just getting round that there won't be any Blackpool - Leeds trains until the end of the year. Finally there'll be the ones who've just got used to picking up the TPE service to Preston at Oxford Road who'll watch it go gliding past without stopping in a few weeks!

Someone in my team arrived at Lytham for a trip to Manchester to be told the train was cancelled. Abandoned the trip.

Then there's the strikes.

Blackpool's been without trains for nearly five months, followed by a resumption of service that's patchy at best so nobody trusts it. Add in the wider issues with late timetables and credibility is at rock bottom. Such a shame, because it's taking away attention from the fantastic work that's been done on the Blackpool - Preston line.

 

[northernchris]

I'm assuming the RDW suspension is a result of Northern upsetting ASLEF?

 

[sprinterguy]

Someone say strike dates?

Set for 9th May, more info here:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3417600/northern-rail-strike-may-2018-routes/
When is the Northern Rail strike?
The RMT union announced on April 25 that its members on Northern, also known as Arriva Rail North, would take industrial action on May 9.

Members are instructed not to book on for any shifts that begin between 0.01am and 11.59pm on those dates.

It follows earlier walkouts in January, September and March which also included workers on other operators such as Southern, Merseyrail, Greater Anglia and South Western Railway.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said:“Yet again the intransigence of private rail companies operating in England over the key issue of the guard guarantee means that we have no option but to announce further strike action in the separate disputes on Arriva Rail North, Greater Anglia and South Western Railway.

“With RMT members protesting outside Parliament today we are drawing attention to the ludicrous situation that means we are able to reach agreements in Wales and Scotland on the guard guarantee but not on a raft of key franchises in England. If it’s good enough for Wales and Scotland to put rail safety first then it should be good enough for the rest of Britain.

“We have long detected the dead hand of the Government interfering to stop us reaching negotiated settlements in the current disputes and it’s about time Chris Grayling stopped playing politics with passenger safety and started taking the issue seriously.

“RMT remains available for genuine and meaningful talks in each of these disputes.”

How were Northern Rail services affected before?
In previous strikes, Northern said almost 1,400 trains would run on each day of industrial action — around half the usual number.

Most services ran between 7am and 7pm and were expected to be "extremely busy", while some routes had busses running instead of trains.

In all cases, Northern advised passengers to check its website before travelling.

It included an interactive map and full list of the services available.

During previous industrial action, Northern’s Sharon Keith said: “We expect out services to be busy and, with amended timetables, we’re calling on our customers to plan ahead, check carefully and allow extra time for any journeys.”

What's the strike over?
The RMT union, which represents guards and drivers, has been calling the strikes in a long-running dispute over job losses and safety.

Rail operators have been planning to remove staff from trains, which would then become driver-only-operated (DOO).

Unions have said the move could potentially make trains more dangerous without guards to assist passengers.

Arriva, which owns Northern and Southern, says it wants constructive discussions with the union.

RMT members on the Docklands Light Railway are due to strike for 48 hours from 4am on Wednesday and for four days from April 20, hitting the London Marathon on April 22.

Talks will be held at the conciliation service Acas to try to avert the strike, which would cause huge disruption to commuters and other passengers.

 

[Red Devil]

I'm assuming the RDW suspension is a result of Northern upsetting ASLEF?

Yes. And no nearer to getting back around the table. Expect more of the same regarding cancellations etc throughout the coming months

 

[Geeves]

It doesn't look like Northern are that bothered about all the cancelled trains. I was told the bill for cancellation of all the trains is lower than the cost of paying rest day work, so yeah they chose the second option. Kinda crazy if it's true.

 

[B&I]

It doesn't look like Northern are that bothered about all the cancelled trains. I was told the bill for cancellation of all the trains is lower than the cost of paying rest day work, so yeah they chose the second option. Kinda crazy if it's true.

Surely an example of perverse incentives at work. I thought privatisation was meant to eliminate that kind of thing through market efficiency ? Instead, it seems that the most profitable way to run a train service is to not run it very well.

 

[peri]

Surely an example of perverse incentives at work. I thought privatisation was meant to eliminate that kind of thing through market efficiency ? Instead, it seems that the most profitable way to run a train service is to not run it very well.

A company is there to make money by whatever means. It should be the job of DFT to keep them honest and run the service to suit the passengers.

 

[furnessvale]

A company is there to make money by whatever means. It should be the job of DFT to keep them honest and run the service to suit the passengers.

Private companies will always run rings round civil servants, it's the nature of the beast.

If the civil servants were good enough, THEY would be out there making shed loads of money for themselves.

 

[Rail Ranger]

The BBC website now has the story about the next Northern strike on 9th May plus strikes on South Western Railway on 11, 14, 16 and 18 May:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43895158

Quote:
"Strikes by workers at operators Northern, Greater Anglia and South Western Railway (SWR) are set to take place on 9 May, the Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union said. SWR staff are also planning four 24-hour strikes on 11, 14, 16 and 18 May".

So Northern users are getting off relatively lightly!

 

[RussellFM]

I am clueless on this issue but where does the funding come from, or lack there of, that would stir up a strike?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm assuming the RDW suspension is a result of Northern upsetting ASLEF?

Yes. And no nearer to getting back around the table. Expect more of the same regarding cancellations etc throughout the coming months

Is this about the DOO proposals (not that there are any) or about something else?
If so I think it's the first time the dispute across various TOCs has extended beyond RMT.

 

[Clip]

I am clueless on this issue but where does the funding come from, or lack there of, that would stir up a strike?

What do you mean by 'funding'?

 

[nr758123]

A company is there to make money by whatever means. It should be the job of DFT to keep them honest and run the service to suit the passengers.

A company is there to make money by whatever means, whilst fulfilling its contractual obligations. I find it hard to believe that routinely cancelling large numbers of services fulfils their contractual obligation, but maybe railway franchising is some sort of parallel universe where the usual relationship between paying money (fares and subsidy) and provision of what's been paid for, doesn't apply.

Hardly surprising that Tim Farron should call for Northern to be stripped of the franchise. I daresay quite a few of his constituents feel the same way. What's the alternative if Northern won't deploy the resources necessary to meet the requirements of the franchise?

 

[Loop & Link]

Is this about the DOO proposals (not that there are any) or about something else?
If so I think it's the first time the dispute across various TOCs has extended beyond RMT.

Is this about the DOO proposals (not that there are any) or about something else?
If so I think it's the first time the dispute across various TOCs has extended beyond RMT.

I personally wouldn’t think it’s directly related to the dispute at all, I think we can put to bed that speculation straight away.

The RDW agreement between Northern & ASLEF came to an end, it’s reviewed periodically anyway.

The reason the effect is more noticeable this time, is that drivers are being released from the roster to go road learning and traction training, with normal turns being left uncovered as a result.

Similar story in GWR land, with drivers being released to go 80x training, and turns going uncovered, although they do currently have Rest Day Working but again it’s optional overtime.

 

[northwichcat]

The 16:58 Stockport to Chester is appearing as cancelled again due to a driver shortage today (3rd time this week.) I'm pretty sure that is one of the few Mid-Cheshire line services booked to have a Manchester Victoria driver.

 

[Mathew S]

What's the cause of the rest day agreement not being renewed? Do we know?

 

[Red Devil]

What's the cause of the rest day agreement not being renewed? Do we know?

ASLEF proposed a "New Deal" for driver's containing various requests and an overhaul of the establishment calculator.
Arriva promised to look at it but slowly backed off from it. They required everything to be cost neutral but this was unachievable. This new deal was the requirement for RDW to be granted. Hence when current agreement ended it wasn't renewed

 

[Mathew S]

ASLEF proposed a "New Deal" for driver's containing various requests and an overhaul of the establishment calculator.
Arriva promised to look at it but slowly backed off from it. They required everything to be cost neutral but this was unachievable. This new deal was the requirement for RDW to be granted. Hence when current agreement ended it wasn't renewed

Okay, what is the 'establisbment calculator', and what were ASLEF asking for?
I ask because without knowing it's hard to grasp whether either party has been reasonable or not.

 

[Starmill]

ASLEF proposed a "New Deal" for driver's containing various requests and an overhaul of the establishment calculator.
Arriva promised to look at it but slowly backed off from it. They required everything to be cost neutral but this was unachievable. This new deal was the requirement for RDW to be granted. Hence when current agreement ended it wasn't renewed

Hm that sounds less than promising! Has this happened before at Northern?

 

[Coolzac]

Without meaning to go off topic, TOCs that cancel services due to staff shortages need to be severely fined. I love the railways and accept that things can go wrong due to weather, signal failure , fatalities etc. However, cancellations due to staffing issues are never justified and very frustrating as a consumer. TOCs need to stop penny pinching and hire enough staff to run their timetables!

 

[Starmill]

Cancelled trains will be reported in the normal way if they are caused by staff shortage. The normal franchise penalty for a full cancellation will apply. In addition, if they consistently miss their franchised targets over time there would probably be a remedial plan from the DfT. In theory if they were to cancel a lot more trains than target for a sustained period, and no remedial plan worked, they could lose the franchise. However, given that GTR did exactly that and are still going it seems unlikely DfT would do that.

 

[northwichcat]

Cancelled trains will be reported in the normal way if they are caused by staff shortage. The normal franchise penalty for a full cancellation will apply. In addition, if they consistently miss their franchised targets over time there would probably be a remedial plan from the DfT. In theory if they were to cancel a lot more trains than target for a sustained period, and no remedial plan worked, they could lose the franchise. However, given that GTR did exactly that and are still going it seems unlikely DfT would do that.

I imagine with both franchises DfT want the franchise to finish the job with implementing DOO before they strip anyone of the franchise, they don't exactly want a temporary public owned franchise having to sort out DOO.

 

[Red Devil]

Okay, what is the 'establisbment calculator', and what were ASLEF asking for?
I ask because without knowing it's hard to grasp whether either party has been reasonable or not.

I can't really divulge it on here. It' s not a question of anyone being unreasonable. The RDW agreement ended and that was it. Up until recently northern ran for many years without RDW agreement. So it can be done without the need for them

 

[Mathew S]

I can't really divulge it on here. It' s not a question of anyone being unreasonable. The RDW agreement ended and that was it. Up until recently northern ran for many years without RDW agreement. So it can be done without the need for them

Fair enough, thanks

 

[RAPC]

It has been getting progressively worse over the last month or so, with issues on Preston/Wigan originally and then over the past couple of weeks the increasing cancellations on Preston/Manchester. I think I may have been unlucky, but so far this week I have had 4 out of 7 peak time journeys cancelled on my commute, meaning delays of 30 minutes at best and over an hour on a couple of occasions. Last week I missed a couple of connecting Virgin services thanks to cancellations and delays, which fortunately Virgin handled with no issues, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to rely on a service to get to work and make meetings at the moment. Much more of it and I will be over to driving when my season ticket finished next week.

It would be nice for some proper delay repay compensation, but because of how Northern do season tickets from Leyland to Manchester (two tickets including a GM Rail Monthly) past requests are only paid on the Leyland to Blackrod part.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's very likely Northern is being protected from the extra costs of delays to introducing new services, because of NR's infrastructure delays.
For instance the class 769 programme is probably being fully funded by DfT.
Northern can't be penalised for delays over the Blackpool upgrade, or the need to use diesels via Bolton for up to a year longer than expected (and consequent issues elsewhere).
It's probably very difficult to work out what issues are caused by the TOC's own management failures and those caused by external factors.
You'd also expect Transport for the North (TfN) to start being more visible in local franchise management now they have the powers, but I think they are still in transition mode with DfT.
There's certainly a PR vacuum at the moment.

 

[coxxy]

1....The dispute between train staff and company over DOO...

I know you mentioned other issues but ASLEF are not in dispute over DOO and dricers not working Rest Days is nothing to do with DOO. there are numerous other issues, which im not going to go in to, which meant ASLEF didn't want to renew the Rest day work agreement. Please remember that ASLEF are not in dispute with Northern.

The rrason for a lot of the issues on the BPN line is nothing more than bad planning on the company side and the company being short of drivers.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Private companies will always run rings round civil servants, it's the nature of the beast.

If the civil servants were good enough, THEY would be out there making shed loads of money for themselves.

It's not everyone's aim in life to make shed loads of money.

 

[coxxy]

A company is there to make money by whatever means. It should be the job of DFT to keep them honest and run the service to suit the passengers.

It IS the job of the DFT to ensure that a service is run for the passengers.. but with set backs here there and everywhere they are fighting a losong battle at the minute..

 

[yorksrob]

If the civil servants were good enough, THEY would be out there making shed loads of money for themselves.

Are you Maggie in disguise !