Northerns 323s?

[CJ]

Does anyone know what is happening with Northerns 323s?

Ages ago I found out that all of them would be going to London Midland and that Northern would get new stock, but then heard that Northern would be keeping them and that LM would be getting new fleet which would then see their 323s transfer to Northern. Then I heard that the class 319s from Thameslink would cascade Northern's 323s to LM to form the uniform fleet. If that’s true, then how come Northern are starting to re-livery the 323s? I’ve seen like 6, 7, maybe more with Northern livery and it’s confused me.

So does anyone know what’s going on with them? :?

 

[class 455 boy]

read this, from wikipedia

In January 2008, as part of the Government's rolling stock plan, the Department for Transport (DfT) announced that the fleet of Class 323 trains currently in operation on services in South and East Manchester would be transferred to London Midland where the rest of the Class 323 trains are based in order to form a uniform fleet. Northern were due to receive 24 new build or cascaded EMU vehicles to allow for this and provide additional capacity.[16] The original plan also stated that further DMU stock is due to be transferred to Northern from London Midland and London Overground. A presentation by the DfT, also in January 2008, indicated that this could include Class 150 units from London Midland.[17]

On December 22 2008, the Department for Transport announced it had issued an invitation to tender for 200 new carriages to form diesel multiple units, some of which were intended for Northern Rail.[18] The Contract Notice specifies that those parties expressing in an interest must have the ability to design and manufacture DMUs which are 23 metres in length, capable of a maximum speed of 100 miles per hour (160 km/h), formed of 2, 3, and/or 4 cars, capable of operation in multiple, and gangwayed throughout, both within units and units in multiple.[19] The order was postponed in July 2009, following the announcement of the electrification of Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows. Northern will now get ex-Thameslink EMUs[20] (most likely British Rail Class 319s) to run Liverpool to Manchester services allowing the diesel units currently used on that service to be cascaded to other lines.

 

[CJ]

Yeah, i read that. However Wikipedia isnt always reliable because anyone can edit it and change it.

 

[TrakBashr]

the other rumor is that the (refurbished) 319's will go to FGW when the wires go up to Bristol...

 

[CJ]

Those trains have been confirmed for FGW so that aint a rumour :P

 

[tbtc]

Until the wires are up between Liverpool and Manchester, where can Northern use additional EMUs? It's not like there's lots of DMUs running under the wires all day as it is

 

[poshbakerloo]

I thought Northern was keeping them? I think it would be a bit unfair if it lost its 323s, they are the only good trains they have right now! They need to ditch the 142,3and4s

 

[Lampshade]

I thought Northern was keeping them? I think it would be a bit unfair if it lost its 323s, they are the only good trains they have right now! They need to ditch the 142,3and4s

I wouldn't say they're the only good trains, the 333s, 158s and most of the 156s are great. They seriously need to ditch the 142s though, bring the 143s up from FGW and consign the 142s to the scrapyard; the 143/144s, despite being Pacers, are much better trains.

 

[CJ]

I thought Northern was keeping them? I think it would be a bit unfair if it lost its 323s, they are the only good trains they have right now! They need to ditch the 142,3and4s

I agree, 323s are very good trains (and love the noice they make when they depart ).

What im asking is, from what i've heard, is that if the 319s from Thameslink are going to replace the 323s which might be going to LM, then how come Northern are re-livery'ing their 323s? It wouldnt make sence to relivery units which might be getting cascaded.

That's why im confused and made this thread to see whats going on with them.

 

[Daimler]

I thought Northern were getting LM's 323s, as LM have tendered for (I think) 30 new 3-Car trains, rumoured to be 350/3s.

 

[scrapy]

The 319s couldn't totally replace 323s without infrastructure/timetable changes for the following reasons:-

Glossop/Hadfield route: 4 car trains cannot be accomodated at Flowery Field, Godley or Dinting (Glossop side).

Stoke route: Cannot fit into Platform 3 at Stoke, cannot reach 90mph like the 323 so would need major timetable rejig, which may restrict virgin vhf services.

Crewe route: Again cannot reach 90mph may need timetable changes having knock on effects to long distance services

They would however I think be suitable for Manchester Picc - Manchester Airport, Manchester Picc - Alderley Edge and Manchester Picc - Hazel Grove allowing 3rd hourly service to be reinstated. This could allow the freed up 323s to be used on the peak Crewe/Macclesfield/Hazel Grove services which are operated by 142s, allowing the 142's to be used to relieve overcrowding on other non electrified routes..

 

[Edvid]

319s run as fast as 100mph, however they do not accelerate as quickly.

 

[87015]

I thought Northern were getting LM's 323s, as LM have tendered for (I think) 30 new 3-Car trains, rumoured to be 350/3s.

Other rumours say 350s are too expensive both upfront and in running costs and a cheaper option is needed.

 

[CJ]

The 319s couldn't totally replace 323s without infrastructure/timetable changes for the following reasons:-

Glossop/Hadfield route: 4 car trains cannot be accomodated at Flowery Field, Godley or Dinting (Glossop side).

Stoke route: Cannot fit into Platform 3 at Stoke, cannot reach 90mph like the 323 so would need major timetable rejig, which may restrict virgin vhf services.

Crewe route: Again cannot reach 90mph may need timetable changes having knock on effects to long distance services

They would however I think be suitable for Manchester Picc - Manchester Airport, Manchester Picc - Alderley Edge and Manchester Picc - Hazel Grove allowing 3rd hourly service to be reinstated. This could allow the freed up 323s to be used on the peak Crewe/Macclesfield/Hazel Grove services which are operated by 142s, allowing the 142's to be used to relieve overcrowding on other non electrified routes..

Well that makes a lot of sense! So I presume that Northern will keep its 323s and have some 319s for the Liverpool-Manchester route as well others.

Cheers.

 

[Daimler]

Other rumours say 350s are too expensive both upfront and in running costs and a cheaper option is needed.

They are good, though.

 

[tbtc]

What im asking is, from what i've heard, is that if the 319s from Thameslink are going to replace the 323s which might be going to LM, then how come Northern are re-livery'ing their 323s? It wouldnt make sence to relivery units which might be getting cascaded.

That's why im confused and made this thread to see whats going on with them.

The electification of the Liverpool - Manchester line will take a good few years before the 319s are needed - the cost of the vinyls for the 323s is probably fairly cheap when you consider they'll not be moving for some time (if at all)

319s can indeed (as has been said) do 100 mph, so could conceivably do the Manchester Airport - Glasgow/ Edinburgh TPE runs (rather than taking 350s from LM) if required