Northern's 323 replacements

[Chilled Phill]

(I did a search and it came up with nothing, so if a similar topic has already been made then I'm sure mods/admins will know what to do.)

As of the DfT stock changes, Northern will be losing their 323 fleet and those will be cascaded to London Midland to create a uniform fleet.

Northern meanwhile, will receive either cascaded EMUs from another TOC or (more likely IMO) they will get brand new built EMUs.

I've read recently that Siemens are speculated to be the favourites for the build, if Northern get new EMUs, that is.

Anyway, just thought I'd ask you guys for an opinion and whether is will be good for both NR and LM...

 

[me123]

Seimens building new EMUs? Anyone see a similarity with the new Class 380s? Certainly a cheaper long-term option if new trains were to be built.

 

[laseandre]

What he said. ^^

 

[Phoenix]

So us Brummies are going to be awash with 323's.
But what I don't get is why so many??? okay I know they will be used to strengthen cross city services by doubling up unit's but there are going to be a few unit's available from London Midlands own fleet as they won't do anything other than the cross city line and if I am correct if doubled there will be 21 and a half doubled up units which seems abit too much.

 

[Mojo]

So us Brummies are going to be awash with 323's.
But what I don't get is why so many??? okay I know they will be used to strengthen cross city services by doubling up unit's but there are going to be a few unit's available from London Midlands own fleet as they won't do anything other than the cross city line and if I am correct if doubled there will be 21 and a half doubled up units which seems abit too much.

I didn't realise the demand was that strong on the Cross-City line for all trains to be 6-Car, though certaintly some services I've been on that are only 3-Car, particularly on Saturdays and Sunday evenings certaintly could do with lengthening, but I would have thought that could be catered for using existing rolling stock given the lower frequencies on Sat/Sun.

 

[87015]

I didn't realise the demand was that strong on the Cross-City line for all trains to be 6-Car, though certaintly some services I've been on that are only 3-Car, particularly on Saturdays and Sunday evenings certaintly could do with lengthening, but I would have thought that could be catered for using existing rolling stock given the lower frequencies on Sat/Sun.

Demand is there, but its far from uniform across the day. Certainly at peak hours everything needs to be 6-car as they are mega overcrowded in both directions out of New St. Even at other times you get the odd train which gets wedged out, generally around school/uni kick out times and as you say in the evening and weekends when the frequency drops out and all the 6-cars have vanished.

 

[Mojo]

I was on a train (IIRC it was the 1724 Southbound) the other day and hardly anyone was on the train (it was a 3-Car). Either everyone had got on the one before or it was just an anomaly. I also don't know about working patterns which seem to vary between Cities (for example, in Bristol it is more common to work 8am-4pm rather than 9am-5pm).

 

[87015]

Maybe its changed in the last few months since I was using it reguarly? The regular collapse of the service didn't help matters, passengers soon piled up during a 15-30 min gap in the service due to whatever has gone wrong this time...

 

[Mintona]

Seems like an excessive number to me. Looks like Northern are getting new build EMUs, but not necessarily for Manchester. I've heard cascaded 321s, 317s and 319s, but it is looking likely that 333s might well be the way forward for Manchester, with new build for Leeds.

 

[Chilled Phill]

Seems like an excessive number to me. Looks like Northern are getting new build EMUs, but not necessarily for Manchester. I've heard cascaded 321s, 317s and 319s, but it is looking likely that 333s might well be the way forward for Manchester, with new build for Leeds.

I see. Thanks once again, Mintona.

I like the Class 333s, although I will miss the sound of a 323 accelerating...although I still have another six years to enjoy it...

 

[adamp]

Its all change, wooooooooop.
Well, in 6 years I mean

-Adam

 

[P156KWJ]

323s sound good, but are very uncomfortable inside

 

[LilLoaf]

Absolutly pointless waste of time, waste of money

Do the railways just love wasteing money these days ?

Its time to get rid of the DFT, they are good at nothing and let train companies make decisions about their trains.

Money and trains would be better placed in other places, like North East, maybe Birmingham can have our 142's and we can get new trains. No we'll just have to make do up here in the frozen North.

 

[Phoenix]

Absolutly pointless waste of time, waste of money

Do the railways just love wasteing money these days ?

Its time to get rid of the DFT, they are good at nothing and let train companies make decisions about their trains.

Money and trains would be better placed in other places, like North East, maybe Birmingham can have our 142's and we can get new trains. No we'll just have to make do up here in the frozen North.

Why is it that us in Birmingham have to have the 142's eh??
I don't think getting rid of the DFT will do anything but honestly we do need a mass replacement program for most unit's out there.

 

[djw1981]

Do the Mancheste rones not run down the WCML bits? In which case, would 350's be viable. AIUI the 380's are going to be limited to 90mph (as the 334's are) whilst the 350 is 100mph for WCML running for LM.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is it that us in Birmingham have to have the 142's eh??
I don't think getting rid of the DFT will do anything but honestly we do need a mass replacement program for most unit's out there.

Surely only 14x NEED replacing. If we strengthened the fleet, then the 15x fleet would be adequate - engineering and passenger comfort wise they are ok. I doubt they need replacing any time in the next 10 years - a refurb maybe, not scrapping.

The 14x series did their job - low cost, low maintenance units for small branch lines to stay open. Without them, the network would be more 'mainline' focussed than even it is.

 

[Craig]

As far as I'm aware 333s are staying in the Leeds area. Probably gonna be a desiro replacement in the north west region. They seem like the electric unit of choice just now!

 

[class 313]

Seems like an excessive number to me. Looks like Northern are getting new build EMUs, but not necessarily for Manchester. I've heard cascaded 321s, 317s and 319s, but it is looking likely that 333s might well be the way forward for Manchester, with new build for Leeds.

Only the Suothern 319s will be displaced, onto FCCTL

 

[Chilled Phill]

As far as I'm aware 333s are staying in the Leeds area. Probably gonna be a desiro replacement in the north west region. They seem like the electric unit of choice just now!

I agree with you there, Craig.

Although if they do build Desiros for the North West, perhaps a build based on the 350s will do the job. Plus, on recent "adverts" about transportation in the Greater Manchester area it states that "extra carriages" will be made available on trains, does this mean the new builds will be 4 long or just double up on rush hour services?

 

[Mintona]

As far as I'm aware 333s are staying in the Leeds area. Probably gonna be a desiro replacement in the north west region. They seem like the electric unit of choice just now!

That's not what I've heard, but I guess you can never believe anything until it actually happens in this day and age!

 

[Craig]

Doubt it. No talk of that from people I know from Northern.

Sounds like end of platform veg talk.

 

[GWRtom]

Absolutly pointless waste of time, waste of money

Do the railways just love wasteing money these days ?

Its time to get rid of the DFT, they are good at nothing and let train companies make decisions about their trains.

Money and trains would be better placed in other places, like North East, maybe Birmingham can have our 142's and we can get new trains. No we'll just have to make do up here in the frozen North.

they do not the goverment allocate rollingstock not the TOCs

 

[bluenoxid]

Doubt it. No talk of that from people I know from Northern.

Sounds like end of platform veg talk.

All of the options are being explored currently (remember there is plenty of time to put an order in for new trains). 333's being moved to the North West is one. However, if electrification of NW lines were to take place, this may be unlikely. If electrification of Y+H lines takes place, this may become likely.

 

[LilLoaf]

This idea has just comes 2nd place in the Top 10 lets waste money awards for totally pointles things to spend money on.

I've been to Birmingham loads of times and the cross city network seems to be running in the 3 and 6 couch formations so why do they need more trains ?

oh 1st prize of First Scotrail or whatever they are called now for the "lets repaint already repainted trains" idea.

 

[me123]

oh 1st prize of First Scotrail or whatever they are called now for the "lets repaint already repainted trains" idea.

An idea that, in the long term, will save money. The trains will be in a constant livery, needing only a minor retouch every now and then. In a few years, assuming First lose the franchise, all that will happen is a little change on the doors as opposed to a full re-livery, and we will see the benefits of this for years to come.

How come when people think about this, they don't appreciate the bigger picture?:?

Also, they will probably re-livery the SPT units first, many of which are in dire need of a refresh (the 156s and 320s come to mind). The 170 just happens to go to all the key locations and is a good choice to launch the livery.

 

[class 313]

oh 1st prize of First Scotrail or whatever they are called now for the "lets repaint already repainted trains" idea.

100% agree with you.

I doubt the idea will be kept for too long. I mean, why would any TOC settle down for a littlw logo on the doors. They should be able to have a full livery.

 

[me123]

I doubt the idea will be kept for too long. I mean, why would any TOC settle down for a little logo on the doors. They should be able to have a full livery.

The Scotrail livery will in the long term save money by ensuring that there's not any large-scale repaints. The Scotrail franchise covers a huge area and therefore has lots of rolling stock. The cost to relivery all these trains must be astronomical, and we can see that it does take some time to complete. This saves money in the long term, allowing for future investments in the railways.

 

[adc82140]

ScotRail are only repainting (actually in the case of FSR livery only revinylling) as the scheduled repaints come around. Therefore no money wasted.

 

[Mintona]

Doubt it. No talk of that from people I know from Northern.

Sounds like end of platform veg talk.

Over in this third of Northern, that's what is currently being mooted.